Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[savevp]

Originally Posted by casper

Good question. How did the UK deal with the IRA?

By putting up with regular terrorist bombings, flare-ups in violence, segregation with walls, and a dysfunctional local government torn between two factions.

Sounds familiar, actually.

[someone123]

Protest rights aside there is the question of whether behaviour is helpful or misguided and how the foreign affairs minister and others in important positions should act. If you are a federal minister the bar for the quality of your official communications should be higher.

When it comes to diaspora politics it is common to see intensely motivated interest groups influencing large numbers of uninformed people who are eager to be the good guys. In Canada I think there is a somewhat toxic interaction between special interest groups who know how to push the right buttons and low information views about doing the right thing around very abstract social justice issues like saving indigenous people and fighting colonizers. Often if you dig into these views they're not truly enlightened or progressive. For example a noble savage trope is often built in. You even saw this with pro-Ukraine people talking about them like they were Ewoks in Star Wars when in reality they have a sophisticated military with complicated requirements (often fought against by the anti-war people).

To take another example, I don't think we really get something resembling the median voter's views determining Canada-India relations. It's more that the vast majority were checked out and a tiny minority had outsized influence. When the issue became nationally known it was because it was already in crisis mode.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It's horrible what is going on there, but when every protest I've seen on television has people holding signs that, in effect, say 'give back Gaza to Paletinians'

For the record, Israel did pretty much exactly that 15+ years ago, and what the Palestinians did with their newfound freedom was to democratically elect baby-decapitating terrorists. So, "been there done that" and it's not a functional solution. Next!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Plus, the solution of 'kill the other side so we can have the land' has also not accomplished anything... ever.

Technically, it works great -- IF you can pull it off.

"Beothuks making a serious claim to all the primiest Downtown St. John's real estate in 2023" is at least one problem we aren't having ...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

[Acajack]

This is kinda related to this topic.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ucus-1.7005056

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is kinda related to this topic.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ucus-1.7005056

My view on stuff like this is very clear: no one is ever owed a party's banner to run under. If she thinks Hamilton Centre voters specifically voted for her over voting for the NDP in general, she can run as an independent next election, and we'll see what happens.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Israel was generally fairly generous with Gaza, withdrawing completely, leaving some economic infrastructure. Gaza immediately elected Hamas with a policy of perpetual war.

If you call controlling everything that goes into and out of a cage, including humans fairly generous. Gazans have been cut off from the rest of Palestinians for 17 years, not to mention the rest of the world!

Israel cut off water and electricity to Gaza with the flip of a switch.

Don't act like Gaza had autonomy. Autonomy within a cage is not the same thing. Israel denies Palestinians of basic human rights and controls near every aspect of daily life, even from "outside the walls" that failed miserably and gave Israelis a false sense of security.

Many Gaza residents cannot even get travel permits to visit friends and family in the West Bank, let alone leave 140 sq miles.

Many Gaza residents are refused Israeli work permits even though they have skills that Israel needs and can make a lot more money outside the walls of Gaza

They have no airport (blown up by Israel in 2001), no seaport. Israel dictates how far they can fish or use their boat in the Mediterranean.

All Palestinians, if they get travel permits/visas have to go all the way to Jordan just to fly.

Was it foolish to elect Hamas, indeed. They were listed as "Change and Reform" party on the ballot and not Hamas or terrorist organization. Once Hamas got control they strong armed Fatah/Palestinian Authority out of Gaza entirely.

Reposting Ali Velshi from May 2021
• Video Link

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

This.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We have the right to protest just about anything we want in this country and no one serious is suggesting that be taken away or even restricted.

But as I've said many times before a lot of the pro-Palestinian protests are derailing too much towards anti-semitism, apologism for terrorism and intimidation of one's fellow citizens who happen to be Jewish.

I honestly don't have a solution to control it but no one is going to stop me from deploring and condemning that stuff.

Wandering through the Ottawa protest it was anti-Isreal in general. When that is considered anti-semitic it is easy to see how protestors will protest a restaurant with Isreali roots.

Totally agree condemning it is valid and I'm on board with that but the politics of this issue have changed.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lio45

My view on stuff like this is very clear: no one is ever owed a party's banner to run under. If she thinks Hamilton Centre voters specifically voted for her over voting for the NDP in general, she can run as an independent next election, and we'll see what happens.

Yep. Good riddance to bad rubbish IMHO.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

So, I guess you'll be fuming about Britain's Conservative government as well, given that PM Sunak announced just this morning in their House of Commons that "the UK government judges that the explosion [at Gaza's Al-Ahli hospital] was likely caused by a missile or part of one that was launched from within Gaza towards Israel"...

PM Sunak didn't immediately jump towards blaming Israel on the day it happened, and then refuse to personally admit he was wrong.

I'd be a lot less annoyed at JT and Joly if they personally admitted they were wrong and apologized. But nope, they got another minister to quietly announce it via press release on a Sunday night, all because JT is too much of an arrogant prick to just admit that he made a mistake.

[thurmas]

Zelensky and Turkey will have talks to see if they can get peace talks started wit Russia so far Russia not participating.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Zelensky and Turkey will have talks to see if they can get peace talks started wit Russia so far Russia not participating.

Russia will not negotiate till US elections have passed. Putin believes he can outwait the West. And I'm not sure he's entirely wrong on that calculation. We have made some terrible mistakes in not ramping support to Ukraine earlier. Putin sees weakness in that.

[someone123]

Europe was really slow. I wonder if they have to date meaningfully increased artillery shell production. In theory had they made good decisions I think they could have had a much larger impact.

I don't think Putin's strategy of waiting for the US to give up is completely off but if I were him I wouldn't feel great about it. There is a lot of messiness and inertia to the political process and Donald Trump is erratic, not a Putin supporter. I wonder how much Ukraine aid that will be pledged before the next president has actually been used or depleted.

I am skeptical of the people who say we know nothing will change because Ukraine has received $XB in aid and didn't retake much land in the summer. I'd be more convinced by accounting based on delivered hardware. People keep talking about F-16s and 0 F-16s have been delivered. Ukraine got a token number of Abrams tanks the other day. I don't think anybody knows how many ATACMS missiles they received?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People can protest in this country. More effectively they are contacting their MPs and swaying Canadian government policy. The protestors are against what they see as an Israeli Apartheid system. The accuracy of that depends on when you start the historical clock and how temporary a 56 year occupation is. They see everything through the lens of colonizer and settler. There only relevant question is who is indigenous to the area?

If you look back at 2000 years or more of history, Jews are arguably the closest thing to an indigenous people in that part of the world. Their population in the area has had incredible variation though over the centuries, and there have been periods where there were very very few Jews there.

But it is their historical home. No doubt about it.

(This doesn't preclude it from being the historical home of other peoples, of course.)

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you look back at 2000 years or more of history, Jews are arguably the closest thing to an indigenous people in that part of the world. Their population in the area has had incredible variation though over the centuries, and there have been periods where there were very very few Jews there.

But it is their historical home. No doubt about it.

(This doesn't preclude it from being the historical home of other peoples, of course.)

There is 2.3 Million people living in Gaza. Many have been there for generations. Expecting them to move into refuge campus is simply wrong.

Expecting the Jews to leave is also wrong.

They need to sit down and figure out how they are going to live together without killing each other.

That should be the Canadian position on all of this.

We have already labelled Hamas as a terrorist organization, as they are, and we should not be surprised when they do terrorist like things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

There is 2.3 Million people living in Gaza. Many have been there for generations. Expecting them to move into refuge campus is simply wrong.

Expecting the Jews to leave is also wrong.

They need to sit down and figure out how they are going to live together without killing each other.

That should be the Canadian position on all of this.

We have already labelled Hamas as a terrorist organization, as they are, and we should not be surprised when they do terrorist like things.

I was just answering the question, and also said that the indigeneity of the Jewish population in the region doesn't preclude it from being the legitimate home of other peoples.

[logan5]

Why is Israel insisting hospitals should be evacuated? It's the one place where children being bombed can be saved. On the surface it sounds very cruel and very inhumane, but the Israeli's must have a good reason for doing this, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67199156

[someone123]

Originally Posted by logan5

Why is Israel insisting hospitals should be evacuated? It's the one place where children being bombed can be saved. On the surface it sounds very cruel and very inhumane, but the Israeli's must have a good reason for doing this, right?

I don't think it's possible for Israel to heavily bomb Gaza city without risk to the hospitals or other civilian targets. Hamas uses human shields and continues to fire rockets at Israel including from inside the urban area, so Israel has to choose between their own civilians getting hit by rockets (for an indefinite period) and killing civilians in Gaza.

Israel didn't tell all Gazans to evacuate. They announced an evacuation zone around Gaza city. They also evacuated part of Israel. It's true that in any war zone there are people who can't or won't leave, and there might not be resources for displaced people. But often in war you are choosing between a lot of bad options.

The best outcome would be for Hamas to surrender and return the hostages. So far they'd rather watch civilians in Gaza go through hell.