Community Development - Blatchford

[feepa]

^ how could it serve millions of passengers a year? It's too small for most major airlines and no room for expansion. Reopening it would devastate progress made at EIA. I thought this was about charter/private services, but clearly, you agenda is coming out.

[Black Star]

There can be absolutely no more relevant and sustainable reason to keep my former secondary airport open.

We have beat this donkey to the top of the hill!

We as a city...and as business minded citizen...have had it.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by feepa

^ how could it serve millions of passengers a year? It's too small for most major airlines and no room for expansion. Reopening it would devastate progress made at EIA. I thought this was about charter/private services, but clearly, you agenda is coming out.

How did it serve more than a million passengers a year in the early 90's prior to consolidation?

Consolidation and the ascendancy of YEG were merely a coincidence of timing, YEG owes everything it has today to WestJet and their version of the "Southwest Effect" nothing else.

Left to their own devices YXD would have continued with their healthy share of the Edmonton market. It might have even exploded as Air Canada and Canadian might have decided YXD was the best place from which to fight WestJet who wouldn't have spread themselves that thin early on. I wouldn't be opposed to all restrictions being lifted - but I believe the FBO based operations that operated until Edmonton Airports re-nagged on their agreement were sufficient.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Consolidation and the ascendancy of YEG were merely a coincidence of timing, YEG owes everything it has today to WestJet and their version of the "Southwest Effect" nothing else.

Oh, so they were just lucky then? Sorry, I don't buy that. Not for a second.

The Muni was cutting off YEG at the knees since the 1960s, and YEG never EVER saw the growth that it did until consolidation occurred. The growth at YEG was the predicted outcome from consolidation, and what 77% of voters (in the biggest election turnout for Edmonton ever) expected when they voted for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Cut off at the knees?

Air traffic is not spontaneously generated by the availability of flights - there is a fixed amount of travel that a market is going to generate in every year. Beyond people driving to Calgary, which is a problem for YEG anyways, shifting some short haul into the muni shouldn't hurt your overall pax amount. The added convenience of the muni might even move a marginal number of drivers into the pax count.

Instead of 'break the Calgary habit', YEG would do better to advertise what flights it does offer, to fill them up. If someone doesn't know that there is a London flight from YEG before they get to the air canada website, no matter how much pro YEG advertising they have been exposed to, it will count for naught.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

This is the only place I have seen significant anti-airport sentiment, I don't know anybody in Edmonton who favors closing the airport. I think the referendum has a high probability of success. And of those with especially strong feelings I would think most of them would fall on the pro-YXD side of the tally.

Then you are completely out of touch with Edmontonians, but that shouldn't come as any surprise.

You support EE's petition for a plebiscite, and you keep going on about how many people the ECCA could serve and how much potential it has. But Edmonton already had a plebiscite in which a vast majority of voters decided to consolidate air service at the International. Or was that part of a conspiracy by Edmonton Airports and City Council as well?

Face it, the issue of scheduled service was already decided on. It's not coming back, regardless of this petition or another plebiscite.

[MalcolmTucker]

They voted to consolidate scheduled air service - and keep the muni open for 50 years.

That is not being honoured by council. If council is saying it can't support the airport because it costs money to operate (not the council's money of course), then the other side has the right to say it has a solution that will solve the council's problem.

[feepa]

Sorry the plebsicite didn't have any time assoc with it.

[Airboy]

If we go by the last plebiscite and shift All Scheduled Service to YEG then Mikasew and Airco must stop all there Scheduled flights to McMurray and GP. Leave it open for GA but also make it a policy that it must pay for itself.

I use CCA quite often and have used it when it was operating with regular scheduled service. It was to small then and its to small now. The terminal was undersized before consolidation, and there was no adequate space to expand it.

I agree with the editorial in the weekend paper. If this goes to a vote the number of ballots cast will be less than the number of people signing the petition.

I WANT TO SEE IT CLOSED. ENOUGH ALREADY

[rapid_business]

So then, what will the wording of the plebisite be? What is Envision Edmonton trying to put to vote? They want everything from reversing councils decision and keeping things status quo, to regular passenger service... but they question will be what goes on the ballot, and what are people voting for (what is the exact wording)?

Also, I wonder if there will be any advertising for the pro side, and if so, who is backing it? City? EIA et al.? Will Envision Edm. scream bloddy murder when/if either of the two do? It is fair that a voter being asked to choose should hear countering arguments to Envision's claims, no?

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

They voted to consolidate scheduled air service - and keep the muni open for 50 years.

That is not being honoured by council. If council is saying it can't support the airport because it costs money to operate (not the council's money of course), then the other side has the right to say it has a solution that will solve the council's problem.

Incorrect, the 50 year lease agreement was not part of the plebiscite question; it was an agreement between the City of Edmonton (the landowner) and Edmonton Airports (the tenant and operator). Those two parties are now renegotiating that lease (toward a phased closure), legally and entirely within their rights.

ETA: It's also worth pointing out that the limited scheduled service that has remained at ECCA is a contravention of both that lease AND the 1995 plebiscite decision.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

Oh, so they were just lucky then? Sorry, I don't buy that. Not for a second.

So how does one explain the similar proportionate growth that occurred at other airports in Western Canada during the same period as WestJet expanded?

[240glt]

^ That was a factor no doubt, but a far cry from assinine comments like this:

YEG owes everything it has today to WestJet and their version of the "Southwest Effect" nothing else.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RTA

Then you are completely out of touch with Edmontonians, but that shouldn't come as any surprise.

You support EE's petition for a plebiscite, and you keep going on about how many people the ECCA could serve and how much potential it has. But Edmonton already had a plebiscite in which a vast majority of voters decided to consolidate air service at the International. Or was that part of a conspiracy by Edmonton Airports and City Council as well?

Face it, the issue of scheduled service was already decided on. It's not coming back, regardless of this petition or another plebiscite.

I spend more time with Edmontonians than Calgarians, the attitudes expressed towards the airport vary from completely indifference to tear jerking nostalgia about PWA. I don't know anybody who has expressed a strong desire or even preference to see it closed. All I see is a handful of people ranting and raving on a pair of message boards and in the comments on news articles.

The outcome of the previous plebiscite allowed for regional service with small aircraft to remain in place at YXD. This was to the satisfaction of most parties - until Edmonton Airports imagined that millions of passengers were flying Quikair to Calgary to catch international flights that would otherwise be attracted to YEG. This of course was ridiculous.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I don't know anybody who has expressed a strong desire or even preference to see it closed. .

The vast majority of the 70 some percent of people who voted to to consolidate flights the last time around would have voted to rip that cocksucker up had that been an option. If you think all these people agreed with consolidation but want to ensure rich calgary execs and MLA's access your more delusional than we think.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^ That was a factor no doubt, but a far cry from assinine comments like this:

YEG owes everything it has today to WestJet and their version of the "Southwest Effect" nothing else.

Air Canada and Canadian Airlines saw Edmonton as nothing more than a feed for their Calgary and Vancouver hubs. WestJet introduced non-stop service from Edmonton to everywhere. Air Canada was forced to do the same to compete with WestJet. Without that your back to an endless stream of full-sized jets ferrying people from YEG to YYC for connecting flights every half hour.

Nothing else even comes into it.

[rapid_business]

So when you guys are done b*tching back and forth over points you will never convince the other of... anyone have thoughts on wording of the plebiscite and advertising 'for'?

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

WestJet introduced non-stop service from Edmonton to everywhere. Air Canada was forced to do the same to compete with WestJet.

And both events happened after consolidation.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by onishenko

So when you guys are done b*tching back and forth over points you will never convince the other of... anyone have thoughts on wording of the plebiscite and advertising 'for'?

Status quo with one runway
Eliminate entirely

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I spend more time with Edmontonians than Calgarians, the attitudes expressed towards the airport vary from completely indifference to tear jerking nostalgia about PWA. I don't know anybody who has expressed a strong desire or even preference to see it closed. All I see is a handful of people ranting and raving on a pair of message boards and in the comments on news articles.

The outcome of the previous plebiscite allowed for regional service with small aircraft to remain in place at YXD. This was to the satisfaction of most parties - until Edmonton Airports imagined that millions of passengers were flying Quikair to Calgary to catch international flights that would otherwise be attracted to YEG. This of course was ridiculous.

Interesting..."the attitudes expressed towards the airport vary from completely indifference to tear jerking nostalgia about PWA"...funny, no one seems to be expressing a strong desire to keep the airport open either!

The plebisite is doomed to fail. If the plebisite is determined to be legal, it will not be up to Envision Edmonton to ask the question that they truly want to ask. You can bet that the question will not be "Do you want scheduled air service to be reinstated to the downtown airport?". The question will be something like "Do you want the downtown airport to remain open for general aviation?" And once the fears related to things such as medivac are alleviated, and that development of the property could lead to opening up economic activity in the city, you will see a strong vote to close the airport.

...including my vote...close the airport!!!