Queen's Park Politics

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

I love all the straw men above - very entertaining.

A couple points:
1. As a general rule, I'm more of a sexual libertarian than anything else. I am not a, shall we say, pre-modern type and I'm certainly not a post-modern ideologue.

As a parent, however, I do lean more to the conservative side - again, it seems like I'm not hearing from many parents on this issue. Would you not prefer to teach your kids about sex than leaving it in the hands of the State?

To clarify, sexual conservatism doesn't necessarily mean you don't teach your kids about sex. It doesn't mean burying your head in the sand. It means instilling in your children certain values that you believe will serve them best. That's a parent's job, not the State's. I suppose that's the key difference between conservatives and socialists. I do not believe the State is a benevolent force for good.

Back to the topic, for some parents that might mean telling their daughter or son to keep their legs crossed until getting married (not particularly helpful). For others, it could mean teaching your children that sex is not something you just give away to any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Sexual intercourse carries with it great responsibility and potentially dire consequences, particularly for women. I believe the curriculum touches on that but like most curricula the objectives are clear but how a teacher reaches those objectives is left to their discretion - these sorts of lessons can go pear-shaped in a hurry.

2. The curriculum pushes forth the Social Constructionist view that there is no true linkage between
*Biological sex
*Gender identity
*Gender expression or
*Sexual proclivity.

This is highly controversial and not based in scientific fact, particularly where sex and gender are concerned. We can't escape our biology. Intersex is a real thing, yes, but it is extraordinarily rare. I'm not saying we don't talk about it but I don't see how it's relevant to 99% of children. I mean, being a kid is confusing enough without getting into gender fluidity and all that.

It goes without saying that this is complex and nuanced issue and cannot be discussed in this medium. Nor can it be discussed in the classroom without causing serious uncertainty for children. I mean, these teachers are not experts in biology, so to leave this in their hands is dangerous. A colleague of mine mentioned the other day that their child told them their teacher said that chromosomes operate on a continuum. What?? I would go out on a limb in saying that most teachers are woefully out of their depth on this issue.

In the end, I hold nothing against anyone who feels differently from me on this issue. I understand where this comes from. For most, it comes from a good place. But consider these simple questions as we alter reality:
*If a male identifies as female and commits a crime to which prison do you send them?
*If a male student who identifies as female takes a biology class, how does the teacher approach that lesson without raising the ire of the more radical element or getting fired for that matter?
*If a male athlete who identifies as female wants to join the women's league, what do we do?

Let's stop pretending this is a cut-and-dry issue.

No one would argue that male is female or vice versa, because male vs female is sex, not gender. You are the one arguing against a strawman, not us.

Yes, it is not cut and dry, and that's exactly why experts acknowledge both social and biological differences and distinguish between them.

[vid]

Doug Ford spoke before 65 PC supporters in Thunder Bay. They interrupted him the whole time. He referred to the potential chromite mines in the Ring of Fire and "gold mines" and promised to drive the bulldozers himself to get it started.

He seemed to get along with the crowd otherwise. It makes sense, he connects to simple people and this city is full of them. Unfortunately for him, this city is very left wing and many won't vote PC even if they like him.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by vid

Doug Ford spoke before 65 PC supporters in Thunder Bay. They interrupted him the whole time. He referred to the potential chromite mines in the Ring of Fire and "gold mines" and promised to drive the bulldozers himself to get it started.

He seemed to get along with the crowd otherwise. It makes sense, he connects to simple people and this city is full of them. Unfortunately for him, this city is very left wing and many won't vote PC even if they like him.

The only place the PCs will win is in North Bay.

[Docere]

^ So Ross Romano and Norm Miller won't be re-elected?

[vid]

Ross Romano might be. Norm Miller represents a central Ontario riding, not a Northern Ontario one.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Docere

^ So Ross Romano and Norm Miller won't be re-elected?

Originally Posted by vid

Ross Romano might be. Norm Miller represents a central Ontario riding, not a Northern Ontario one.

The first time a PC won in SSM in 30 years. Now, if the PCs could have kept it together, they might have won.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by vid

And teaching young kids that gender identity is limited to only two options is why large numbers of LGBT youth commit suicide or end up disowned by their families. Not teaching young kids about safe sex is why I have cousins are are grandparents at 33.

I wouldn't dream of it.

However, let's not pretend that it's that easy. If you had a child who identified as the opposite sex, for example, would accepting them and putting them on hormones simply end the problem? I think we both know that's not the case. I would also say that there are a million things we don't know about transsexuality from a biological perspective. But as long as politics insists on interjecting itself into science, we'll never know.

Some parents believe teaching their kids Scientology is "what's best", so while the state might not always be "a benevolent force for good", parents often aren't either. They're just random people.

You're absolutely right. The malevolence I've seen parents direct at their children is enough to make one lose faith in humanity. I've seen it in the classroom, too - many times. There's an argument to be made that the State is the lesser of two evils but as an individual, I can only focus on what's best for me and my family.

And yet you participate in it. How curious! I am very intelligent.

I pay my taxes, lest I go to prison, yes. The ways things are headed, we're considering all our options - let's put it that way.

Who is teaching them to spread their legs open?

That was a digression. I didn't mean to imply that's being taught in the classroom.

We're currently teaching girls to not let men go anywhere near them and that boys are rapists just for saying hello and you're losing your shit over it yet here you are suggesting that abstinence only education isn't bad?

That may be your understanding of my point, but I'm not in favour of abstinence only education, as you put it.

It's pretty clear that men and women are extraordinarily confused about how they're supposed to behave around each other, yes. Leaving women aside for the moment, I'd say we've failed young men heroically over the past couple generations. We've underestimated how complicated it can be to turn a boy into a man. There's nothing worse than a man who doesn't know how to be a man - that's when things go terribly wrong.

I think we can agree that part of the problem here is that lots of parents just send their kids to and from school and never interact with their learning. I feel like there should be a couple days a month where parents go to school with their kids to learn too because some parents are, as we say in northern Ontario, "right stoopit".

Theoretically, that sounds like a wonderful idea.

With an average school size of 500, those "99%" of children are probably going to know a half dozen or so non-binary kids. Teaching them about it will help them understand it. There are kids who identify as rabbits and cars and shit, if they're not really non binary they'll grow out of it pretty fast.

I agree in principle at least.

But for those who are gender fluid, this brings clarity to the issue. For those who know someone who is gender fluid, this bring clarity to the issue. Kids meet adults, too, not just kids. We're still comfortably within the realm of teaching them about things they'll interact with in life.

Not to be glib, but if you're gender fluid, there is no clarity that could be brought to light, I'm afraid.

Typically the one they identify with. You could also go with the one where their presence poses the least threat to themselves and others, which would take into consideration the degree to which they've transitioned. A cross dressing male or one of your buddies having a laugh by tucking his dick between his legs won't fit into a women's prison as well as a transwoman who has completed her transition. But we know that transwomen in men's prisons often get raped, attacked, and murdered.

Western civilisation died a long time ago. Conversations like this, with all due respect, are just further proof of the pointlessness of it all. No wonder everyone's addicted to opioids.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Docere

^ So Ross Romano and Norm Miller won't be re-elected?

Vid is correct that Norm Miller is a central ON MPP.

Ross Romano will be an interesting one to watch in the Sault. He won a by-election on his own personality as he was a city councillor. The PC leader Patrick Brown at that time did nothing to help him but Romano is close friends with him. That will certainly hurt.

Sault Ste. Marie is known for not being loyal to its politicians. The city often doesn't follow voting trends in the province and even Northern Ontario. I'm betting that the NDP will have a strong candidate who could win. Most people in the Sault aren't willing to vote conservative since the Bill Davis era so if the PC candidate does win, it's with no more than about 40% of the total votes.

The City of Timmins is now its own riding so we will be like the Sault where many candidates will be city councillors who are well known. Before in Timmins-James Bay we would often have candidates from Kapuskasing or Hearst who were unknown in Timmins which had over half of the riding's population. It will likely mean that many more will vote based on who the candidate is rather than political party.

[Docere]

The Soo is known for defying the overall trend as well. Look what happened to Tony Martin federally in 2011 - he went down when the NDP won its best ever-historical result.

[Loco101]

Federally the Sault had James Kelleher who was a cabinet minister in the Mulroney government but the NDP candidate beat him in 1988 when the Mulroney PCs won a second majority.

[SteelTown]

Apparently the PC leadership voting results are "extremely close", hence the delay of the results. Because of the technical issues with the online voting system both lawyers for Ford and Elliot are fighting it out behind the scenes.

I'm thinking Doug Ford might have won.

[vid]

What an election! Is this indicative of the June general election?

[Docere]

Interesting that Sam Oosterhoff is supporting the nice, progressive Red Tory Christine Elliott. Randy Hillier too.

[vid]

I think they know she is the only one who can actually win against Wynne.

Kind of sad that that party has to take her seriously when she's one of the least popular democratically elected leaders in the world, even less than Trump! Says a lot about the PC Party of Ontario, tbqh.

[Docere]

Apparently Caroline Mulroney came in fourth. Not a surprise. She offers nothing more than her last name and stupid statements like "we need to let the private sector into IT."

At least Tanya Granic Allen, nutty as she is, has a base in the PC Party.

[1overcosc]

Allison Smith tweeted:

"Just got a peek inside the room Doug Ford is in. He’s sitting at a table looking pissssssed."

https://twitter.com/QueensParkToday/...295444480?s=19

[1overcosc]

Apparently the electronic system that the party used tabulated votes by postal code. Because some postal codes are along riding borders it means about 1300 of the 64,000 tabulated ballots weren't assigned a riding by the system. So now they have to go through and manually determine a riding for each of these 1300 ballots!

[1overcosc]

Apparently the first run through showed Ford winning by a razor thin margin and Elliott is contesting the result.

[vid]

CBC News is suggesting that one person won the popular vote, and another won the most ridings, and it's the latter that counts in the points system.

[SteelTown]

CBC said Doug Ford won.