PHILADELPHIA-CAMDEN-WILMINGTON-ATLANTIC CITY-READING | Metro Development Thread

[ePlanningPhila]

Wilmington is a great smaller city, and definitely has alot going for it! My aunt moved there to be closer to her job many years ago from Bucks County and she definitely enjoys it.

It really is a short drive to Wilmington only 33 miles, I will say though if we can beef up transit access between Philadelphia and Wilmington (an express SEPTA route) it would be a game changer and perhaps would make the 2 more conterminous. I took an Acela one time from Center City to Wilmington, it was MIND BLOWING. It only took about 15 minutes. (that drive would of been closer to 45 minutes).

Moving forward I think it would be in the region's best interest to bridge connections in both Wilmington and Trenton to Philadelphia. Trenton is always tied within NY metro, but it is far closer to Philadelphia, and I know from a commuting aspect many from the Trenton area commute into PA and vice versa.

I think the big divide in many ways is there are 3 distinct states with their own identities, and therefore you have competing government interests from each state. Anyways its a great time to be living in the Delaware Valley!

Also Northern Delaware and Southwest Chester & Delaware Counties are also very much the same. Much of that region shares that old money identity, with architecture, institutions, etc. Its referred to as the Brandywine Valley and extends both in DE and PA, with both sides sharing a good number of landmark institutions, sites.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by ePlanningPhila

Wilmington is a great smaller city, and definitely has alot going for it! My aunt moved there to be closer to her job many years ago from Bucks County and she definitely enjoys it.

It really is a short drive to Wilmington only 33 miles, I will say though if we can beef up transit access between Philadelphia and Wilmington it would be a game changer and perhaps would make the 2 more conterminous. I took an Acela one time from Center City to Wilmington, it was MIND BLOWING. It only took about 15 minutes. (that drive would of been closer to 45 minutes).

Moving forward I think it would be in the region's best interest to bridge connections in both Wilmington and Trenton to Philadelphia. Trenton is always tied within NY metro, but it is far closer to Philadelphia, and I know from a commuting aspect many from the Trenton area commute into PA and vice versa.

I think the big divide in many ways is there are 3 distinct states with their own identities, and therefore you have competing government interests from each state. Anyways its a great time to be living in the Delaware Valley!

Also Northern Delaware and Southwest Chester County are also very much the same. Much of that region shares that old money identity, with architecture, institutions, etc. Its referred to as the Brandywine Valley and extends both in DE and PA, with both sides sharing a good number of landmark institutions, sites.

Wilmington would also be a big winner if there was high-speed rail in the Northeast corridor. If you could get there in an hour or less from DC, it would allow a lot of people to live in a city with cheaper housing.

[domodeez]

Originally Posted by ePlanningPhila

I will say though if we can beef up transit access between Philadelphia and Wilmington (an express SEPTA route) it would be a game changer...

Moving forward I think it would be in the region's best interest to bridge connections in both Wilmington and Trenton to Philadelphia.

In the past 3 years, SEPTA service between Wilmington and Philly has been getting gradual service upgrades.

Since 2014, SEPTA and DART (DART pays SEPTA to run in DE) have added a total of three weekday round-trip trains, one Saturday night round-trip train, and one weekday one-way express, while converting two weekday local trains to express. Still a ways to go, but it's happening.

Unsurprisingly, SEPTA ridership in Wilmington has risen 23% since 2014.

[ePlanningPhila]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Wilmington would also be a big winner if there was high-speed rail in the Northeast corridor. If you could get there in an hour or less from DC, it would allow a lot of people to live in a city with cheaper housing.

Yea the whole NEC could serve as a model with high speed rail service. Its a shame though that the NEC subsidizes most of the rest of Amtrak. If we can add capacity and also lower commuting cost, now that would be HUGE. I mean to think the ways we subsidize roads, the federal government really should invest heavily not just in High Speed Rail, but making it affordable. It would be fascinating to see if the states within the NEC could collaborate, and try to incorporate some type of economic package, and partner with some corporations, where the infrastructure costs are shared with private companies, but its explicit that the investment will give them higher returns in the future based on the economic development from the transportation investments. They do this with alot of transit projects in Asia and we have failed miserably here in the US to model that.

I think a monthly pass now via Amtrak from Philadelphia to NYC is $1,050 a month. A huge barrier. If I could spend $10 each way to go to Wilmington, and it only took 15 minutes, I would go there all the time from Philadelphia! And I am sure people from Wilmington would do the same.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by ePlanningPhila

Yea the whole NEC could serve as a model with high speed rail service. Its a shame though that the NEC subsidizes most of the rest of Amtrak. If we can add capacity and also lower commuting cost, now that would be HUGE. I mean to think the ways we subsidize roads, the federal government really should invest heavily not just in High Speed Rail, but making it affordable. It would be fascinating to see if the states within the NEC could collaborate, and try to incorporate some type of economic package, and partner with some corporations, where the infrastructure costs are shared with private companies, but its explicit that the investment will give them higher returns in the future based on the economic development from the transportation investments. They do this with alot of transit projects in Asia and we have failed miserably here in the US to model that.

I think a monthly pass now via Amtrak from Philadelphia to NYC is $1,050 a month. A huge barrier. If I could spend $10 each way to go to Wilmington, and it only took 15 minutes, I would go there all the time from Philadelphia! And I am sure people from Wilmington would do the same.

Like the Interstate highway system in the US, the federal government should own the trains and land where the rails are laid. Something like over 90 percent of the route miles are owned by private freight companies. I believe a lot of the federal budget that goes to subsidize Amtrak is to pay for employee costs, and the use of the track. More than 90% of the route are non-profitable. With that preface, I don't see how more money can be pissed into the system that doesn't make economic sense.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by ePlanningPhila

I think a monthly pass now via Amtrak from Philadelphia to NYC is $1,050 a month. A huge barrier. If I could spend $10 each way to go to Wilmington, and it only took 15 minutes, I would go there all the time from Philadelphia! And I am sure people from Wilmington would do the same.

That's really on Septa to implement better schedules including much faster expresses. Obviously coordinating with Amtrak. Amtrak does not want to sell "cheaper" monthly passes on shorter distances like Wilmington-Philly when it could otherwise fill those seats with people going DC-PHL/NYC or Wilmington-NYC.

[Nova08]

A trolley is coming to Elmwood Park Zoo, Norristown
http://www.timesherald.com/article/J...NESS/171119791

When a proposed trolley begins clang-clang-clanging down the comeback trail in the not too distant future the zoo will be reviving a lost Norristown tradition while generously sharing the fruits of its own success by offering easy transportation for its visitors into downtown Norristown.

Did anyone else see this... Is it a pipe dream or actually legit?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I feel the same way about Chester: it's definitely part of the Philly area, but it feels like its own city. It is Delco's largest city, both by population and land area (?). It also has an in-tact downtown area, although Avenue of the States has historically looked bombed-out until recently.

In terms of Wilmington, I have always thought of it as part of the region, yet with its own distinct identity. Before the regional identity solidified, Wilmington was in its own sphere of influence as Delaware's largest city. Now, Philadelphia anchors an MSA and CSA that includes PA, NJ, DE, and MD. This doesn't detract from the fact that Wilmington offers its own downtown area, skyscrapers, cultural institutions, and own unique history.

There are bigger towns and cities in Delco now. Namely Upper Darby and Haverford Townships.

[Scottydont]

Originally Posted by Nova08

A trolley is coming to Elmwood Park Zoo, Norristown
http://www.timesherald.com/article/J...NESS/171119791

Did anyone else see this... Is it a pipe dream or actually legit?

As someone who lives nearby Norristown, its got a long way to go before its considered a destination. I like the area immediately surrounding the courthouse, but other than that... its no Phoenixville, or Conshy or Bryn Mawr.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by Scottydont

As someone who lives nearby Norristown, its got a long way to go before its considered a destination. I like the area immediately surrounding the courthouse, but other than that... its no Phoenixville, or Conshy or Bryn Mawr.

I'm actually surprised Norristown hasn't become more than what it is. It's got such a nice little walkable downtown area, it reminds me of a mini-Philly with its style of rowhouses and older architecture. I would have thought the spillover success of KOP would have crept into Norristown, instead it skipped it over in favor of the Plymouth Meeting area. Either way, the potential is definitely there.

[domodeez]

Originally Posted by Nova08

That's really on Septa to implement better schedules including much faster expresses. Obviously coordinating with Amtrak. Amtrak does not want to sell "cheaper" monthly passes on shorter distances like Wilmington-Philly when it could otherwise fill those seats with people going DC-PHL/NYC or Wilmington-NYC.

To implement better WIL-PHL service, SEPTA needs to coordinate with Amtrak and, often times more importantly, DART. SEPTA is paid by DART to operate commuter train service in DE. While DART doesn't own the rails, they do control the purse strings, and for the moment that's the critical piece.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Wilmington would also be a big winner if there was high-speed rail in the Northeast corridor. If you could get there in an hour or less from DC, it would allow a lot of people to live in a city with cheaper housing.

If we got true high speed rail, Wilmington is not going to be a stop.

It will be DC-BALT-PHL-NYC-BOS. With a potential stop somewhere in CT or RI.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

If we got true high speed rail, Wilmington is not going to be a stop.

It will be DC-BALT-PHL-NYC-BOS. With a potential stop somewhere in CT or RI.

I 100% disagree. Wilmington is a much more important area for businesses to be able to access and had seen much more development lately than Providence or Hartford. Yes Wilmington is a smaller populated city, but the train station here booms with business (In fact, it's one of the most busiest stations in the country) because most people who work in Wilmington rely on transit to get to work everyday. Also, a reason that I think could be why Wilmington doesn't have a bigger population is because most people who work in Wilmington don't live here, but they commute via Amtrak or Septa everyday from surrounding states.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

I 100% disagree. Wilmington is a much more important area for businesses to be able to access and had seen much more development lately than Providence or Hartford. Yes Wilmington is a smaller populated city, but the train station here booms with business (In fact, it's one of the most busiest stations in the country) because most people who work in Wilmington rely on transit to get to work everyday. Also, a reason that I think could be why Wilmington doesn't have a bigger population is because most people who work in Wilmington don't live here, but they commute via Amtrak or Septa everyday from surrounding states.

Eh, Wilmington has lower Amtrak ridership than Providence (albeit not by much) and has been trending downwards in ridership while Providence has been trending upwards. Further, both the Hartford and Providence MSAs each have about 200,000 more jobs than the Wilmington metropolitan division. I also feel like there would be hesitation to fund the project in New England if there were three stops South of Philadelphia and only one stop North of New York. While I'd love to see it, I tend to think It'd be DC-BALT-PHL-NYC-PVD-BOS.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

I 100% disagree. Wilmington is a much more important area for businesses to be able to access and had seen much more development lately than Providence or Hartford. Yes Wilmington is a smaller populated city, but the train station here booms with business (In fact, it's one of the most busiest stations in the country) because most people who work in Wilmington rely on transit to get to work everyday. Also, a reason that I think could be why Wilmington doesn't have a bigger population is because most people who work in Wilmington don't live here, but they commute via Amtrak or Septa everyday from surrounding states.

This is not an opinion of mine. It's a fact. The high speed northeast corridor proposals currently on the table leave Wilmington off the list. As they should. If you include Wilmington, why not Trenton? New Brunswick? New Haven? Newark? See how that works? All of a sudden, it just becomes another Amtrak NE Corridor train.

You can take your bullet train to Philadelphia and transfer to Septa.

Bullet trains aren't intended to serve secondary (or tertiary) cities like Wilmington. They get you to other major nodes of transportation super quickly and then you navigate to the secondary city from there. It's how it's supposed to be.

Wilmington has 70K people. You aren't getting a bullet train station.

[iheartphilly]

Not so much a bullet train, if there's plenty of targets (stops) to hit...LOL.

[Parkway]

Or you would transfer at Baltimore for a local train if you are coming north. Not that this exists as such but if you look at many other places this is how it would work. You could also just make sure that (Amtrak) local trains can run as fast as they can.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This is not an opinion of mine. It's a fact. The high speed northeast corridor proposals currently on the table leave Wilmington off the list. As they should. If you include Wilmington, why not Trenton? New Brunswick? New Haven? Newark? See how that works? All of a sudden, it just becomes another Amtrak NE Corridor train.

You can take your bullet train to Philadelphia and transfer to Septa.

Bullet trains aren't intended to serve secondary (or tertiary) cities like Wilmington. They get you to other major nodes of transportation super quickly and then you navigate to the secondary city from there. It's how it's supposed to be.

Wilmington has 70K people. You aren't getting a bullet train station.

Well then by your logic, why would Providence or Hartford get a bullet train station either? From what I've herd, Hartford is dead in development and same goes for Providence, only not as much. Also, If I were to make a list of reasons for businessmen to want to travel to Providence/Hartford vs Wilmington, I could almost guarantee that Wilmington would win. Wilmington's population is low, but that has nothing to do with this. Just because not a lot of people live here doesn't mean that Wilmington isn't booming with business and development, in fact, I think it's booming more than Providence or Hartford. I will say though that Urbanthusiat did make a good point though.

I also wouldn't call Wilmington a "secondary city" either, because as the whole previous page has discussed, Wilmington is kind of like it's own place but in the same general metro as Philly. There is in fact stuff here that even Philly lacks.

[domodeez]

Originally Posted by domodeez

$40M redevelopment of Wilmington's Galleria Shoppes underway

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/...way/420185001/

Tough to see here but this hole has gotten pretty deep:

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

Well then by your logic, why would Providence or Hartford get a bullet train station either? From what I've herd, Hartford is dead in development and same goes for Providence, only not as much. Also, If I were to make a list of reasons for businessmen to want to travel to Providence/Hartford vs Wilmington, I could almost guarantee that Wilmington would win. Wilmington's population is low, but that has nothing to do with this. Just because not a lot of people live here doesn't mean that Wilmington isn't booming with business and development, in fact, I think it's booming more than Providence or Hartford. I will say though that Urbanthusiat did make a good point though.

I also wouldn't call Wilmington a "secondary city" either, because as the whole previous page has discussed, Wilmington is kind of like it's own place but in the same general metro as Philly. There is in fact stuff here that even Philly lacks.

Dude. I'm telling you. It's not on the table. It doesn't matter what you think.

And yes. It's secondary. Philadelphia has 23X as many people as Wilmington. Baltimore has 10X as many. Newark (NJ) has 5X as many and isn't getting one either.

It would stop in either Hartford and Providence because between NYC and Boston, there needs to be at least one stop. And also, because all of the official proposals include one of the two cities.

Wilmington is a great little city. Nobody denies it. It is also highly decentralized and very suburban. That's Wilmington's fault. 30 years after every other city in the NE corridor, Wilmington is finally paying attention to it's downtown. It also does not have ANY major universities in the city proper.

New Brunswick has Rutgers. Not getting a high speed stop.
Newark has 300K people. Not getting a high speed stop.
Trenton has 90K people and the state's capital. Not getting a high speed stop.
New Haven has 120K people and Yale. Not getting a high speed stop.

Providence has 180K people and Brown and is the state's capital. Might get a high speed stop.
Hartford has 120K people, multiple fortune 500 companies, and is the state's capital. Might get a high speed stop.

Wilmington has 70K people. Zero universities. No state capital. Not getting a high speed stop.