Affordable Housing in Edmonton

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

People really need to put themselves in the shoes of others with less means. We all deserve a decent roof over our heads.

Amen to that.....Everybody.

[Abii]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

You just answered your own question... So ignorant of reality...

Go onnnnnnnnn....

Expand. Enlighten me if you think I'm ignorant. I provided numbers to back up my argument. I don't see you doing the same. I also did say there are legitimate reasons (such as having dependents) that make saving difficult.

Also you don't need to send me PM's. I wasn't attacking you. I'm genuinely baffled at the thought that Edmonton could be considered "unaffordable." The numbers don't add up.

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

Sad to see even on this thread a tone of snarky privilege of racial entitlement... Oh wait, it's what I've seen on here DAILY since 1997... In other breaking news? I predict the sun will rise again tomorrow and Trump will tweet more lunatic shit some of you will lap up like a cat with a saucer of cream... Enjoy your bubble, Katy Perry!

"racial entitlement" >> I'm not white. If that's what you're hinting at. Actually, what is it that you're hinting at? I don't understand.

As far as Trump is concerned, I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter. What Trump has to do with this discussion, only you know.

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

People really need to put themselves in the shoes of others with less means. We all deserve a decent roof over our heads.

I did that. I explicitly stated that there are many circumstances that genuinely stop people from saving as much as they should. Having dependents is the most obvious one.

But I also said that an average 150,000 dollar condo requires only 7,500 dollars in down payment. If you save 2000 dollars a year (a measly 5% savings rate based on a 40k gross income), you will have the required funds to mortgage a place in 4 years. The monthly mortgage payments will be 700 dollars (less than rent).

If we're going to discuss an issue, we need to establish the legitimacy of that issue first. Nowhere is it set in stone that Edmonton has an affordability problem. If an outrageous claim is made, you can't get angry and attack people when you see resistance to the premise of your entire argument (talking about canucklehead2 not you ).

[canucklehead2]

Sorry to come across as harsh (and I was) but if you read the comments above from the beginning of the thread, I've had fellow forumers not even admit affordability is a problem for nearly half of Edmontonians based on ACTUAL data, and you breeze in here with some dime-store advice that doesn't even apply to the conversation at hand since your premise alone is faulty based on statistics, not your just opinion of the poor which from your own tone and comments seems less than pleasant... For the record the people who need "affordable" housing the most make less than your base rate your basing your whole philosophy and financial scheme is based upon...

Now if you want to move beyond this and actually debate be my guest... I see a lot of others have already tapped out which goes to show you the topic neither interests them nor do they have anything positive or remotely helpful to add to a debate that is MORE than needed, even if it's icky for snowflakes who'd rather not have to deal with the harsh realities of life beyond their own bubble...

PS, as for my financial data. I have stellar credit (in the actual top tier) but I just don't earn enough to qualify for any sort of mortgage, coupled with $25K in student loan debt from a university degree in communications. So yeah, I'm boned because even the rental market in Edmonton isn't affordable for someone who earns in the $17-18/hour range and of course all conventional affordable housing schemes like Habitat for Humanity or YMCA projects are aimed at the most vulnerable... So unless you have any actual advice beyond "earn more money" be my guest...

[canucklehead2]

https://tools.td.com/mortgage-affordability-calculator/

[canucklehead2]

And not to keep hammering home on a point a quick search of listings in Edmonton below $150,000 on Realtor.ca is pretty revealing even if someone met your magical threshold for success... A whopping 9 listings on the entire south side between the North Sask to 63 Ave on the south... And that area houses what 115-120,000 people and 9 units are available... I like those odds!

North of the river is slightly better, but only if you go into the traditionally "don't invest" zones which have actually existed in some real estate circles and even had the links posted on here. I'd personally invest in one since I currently live in an area deemed "not worthy" myself... Even then with the same threshold... Central McDougall only has 11 properties for sale under the $150K threshold... Boyle Street about 20...

And before I hear about the "you need to think further out" argument, my current area (Montrose) and adjacent 3 districts that fit on the map which house about 15-20,000 people have a whopping 3 listings! And this is in the toxic belt of East Edmonton where Edmonton's middle class goes to troll for vice...

And Mill Woods? 31 listings...

Seems to be there's more than one problem here... Supply @ nil-ish, Demand @ extreme and a shit-ton of people like me in the young, highly educated but BAF (Broke as F*ck) working class millennials who are post college and don't have $ banked due to school, life, etc. No Daddy Warbucks to buy us a college "investment" condo on the 104th corridor, just the people you* (not anyone in particular on here since it seems I probably wouldn't like most of you if your offline personality matches anything close to the toxic brew of ego and smugness that percolates hourly at this e-Timmy's...) demean, condescend and abuse on a daily basis without so much as a thought... But then again prove me wrong GLADLY!

And for yet another record, why I don't have $10K saved is because while I did for exactly your point, life happened and a family member lost a job and had to borrow money. So there went my carefully executed plan to secure myself a future... Anything else you wanna you, oh wise financial oracles and elders!

[canucklehead2]

SEARCH UPDATE: God forbid you want 3 bedrooms in Mill Woods. There are 6* listings, 5 trailers @ Maple Ridge and one apartment… Hope you like pissing away your investment into a property that is worthless on land YOU DON'T OWN… So much for that option for anyone wanting to invest their $$ into something that might help them move up the property ladder...

For the record the 1 bedroom supply in the whole MW mini-city was 12 units but there were 19 two-bedrooms available which is way more than I thought... Almost spoiled for choice there... ;-)

[Abii]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

Sorry to come across as harsh (and I was) but if you read the comments above from the beginning of the thread, I've had fellow forumers not even admit affordability is a problem for nearly half of Edmontonians based on ACTUAL data, and you breeze in here with some dime-store advice that doesn't even apply to the conversation at hand since your premise alone is faulty based on statistics, not your just opinion of the poor which from your own tone and comments seems less than pleasant... For the record the people who need "affordable" housing the most make less than your base rate your basing your whole philosophy and financial scheme is based upon...

I'm sorry for completely disregarding the idea as well. I've had a couple of days to think about it and I can see why I was letting my own situation dictate my judgment. I'm not saying I'm suddenly convinced that there is a major issue, but I have to accept that not everyone is able to do certain things. Life is complicated and not everyone fits neatly into a standardized box.

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

Now if you want to move beyond this and actually debate be my guest... I see a lot of others have already tapped out which goes to show you the topic neither interests them nor do they have anything positive or remotely helpful to add to a debate that is MORE than needed, even if it's icky for snowflakes who'd rather not have to deal with the harsh realities of life beyond their own bubble...

PS, as for my financial data. I have stellar credit (in the actual top tier) but I just don't earn enough to qualify for any sort of mortgage, coupled with $25K in student loan debt from a university degree in communications. So yeah, I'm boned because even the rental market in Edmonton isn't affordable for someone who earns in the $17-18/hour range and of course all conventional affordable housing schemes like Habitat for Humanity or YMCA projects are aimed at the most vulnerable... So unless you have any actual advice beyond "earn more money" be my guest...

I guess the first thing we need to do is establish a point of agreement. I agree that if an individual works a 40 hour work week, then that individual should receive a livable wage.

I punched in the numbers and 20 dollars an hour is just under 40k a year. Let's round it to 40k and assume the after tax income is roughly 32,000 dollars. If we assume that rent and utilities eat up 12k a year, you're left with 20k for entertainment, food, savings, loan payments etc... Student loan debt eats up 4-5000 dollars a year easy. Suddenly things start getting shaky.

So yes, these numbers aren't what I had in mind. Again, my bad for not standing back and actually looking at what an individual earning that salary would have to work with.

It's not that I'm not capable of putting myself in the shoes of others. I'm a first generation Canadian (came to Canada when I was in high school). Parents were never rich. FAR from it. They weren't even in the middle class in the first few years. The thing is, where we came from provided so much less opportunities (even though my parents arguably had a better life back in the old country) that the thought of complaining has always felt crazy to us. I can go get a job in Northern Alberta and pay off 20k worth of debt in half a year. Or do X, or do Y etc...

Is that realistic for everyone? I have to accept the fact that the answer is no. But that's where my head was when I jumped into the thread and made the comments that I made.

I think a lot of others are in the same boat as I am. They look around them and they see opportunities and think to themselves why is this person complaining about a low salary when there are other opportunities out there. This is a stupid way to think. But I'll be the first to admit that I have a hard time escaping this line of thinking.

Re. policy issues, I wish Canada would follow the footsteps of countries like Denmark or Sweden. Education, health care and other necessities of life shouldn't put people in debt. People in Europe live comfortable lives on 40k Euro salaries. When you don't have to service student loan debt, when you have access to fantastic public transportation that negates the need for a car, when you have access to affordable child care etc... the cost of living drops drastically, even though you pay higher taxes.

[Urban recluse]

Tiny homes, micro-suites and micro-condos. The idea that you need more space than you, well, need, is ridiculous.

I am also a proponent of increased alley housing and garage suites.

[adam-machiavelli]

If you plan to visit Vancouver this summer and fall, I highly recommend you check out the temporary exhibit at the City of Vancouver Museum on Vienna's affordable housing history, present, and future. Vienna is not much smaller than Vancouver and has 160,000 affordable units, as opposed to Vancouver's 25,000 units. This exhibit puts any Canadian city to shame.

[canucklehead2]

20,000 of these please... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2uotBU_lQ

I personally could see myself in one of these since I am single, a minimalist and love high rise living... Does anyone happen to know the unit size minimum in Edmonton ATM?

[Urban recluse]

That is all I need and want.

[Coldrsx]

Min unit size?

I have seen places in the high 3s and low 4s that work very well.

[canucklehead2]

Yes, but that wasn't the question. I know the U of A design lab project was a little over 200 sq ft... What would be an economic ballpark for high rise downtown construction these days psf? $300? So at 108 sq ft $31K... 400 sq ft would be $120K, that's a vast ocean difference in costs...

[Coldrsx]

Concrete high-rise, $450-550/sqft

Wood, $300-375

[canucklehead2]

AT that rate would that exclude or include parking, as per our discussion earlier this year about car-free density bonuses and bringing down the cost overall... To me developers should be given density bonuses if they would work in micro apartments if the project is within the 200m radius of a Rapid Transit stop... In the case of downtown, that's almost all of the CBD...

[Coldrsx]

Right now there are parking maximums, not mins in certain areas of the DT. Those would include parking.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Concrete high-rise, $450-550/sqft

Wood, $300-375

i'm pretty sure those numbers don't hold for micro-suites...

the smaller the suites are, the more expensive the fixed components of each suite becomes.

regardless of size every suite needs an entry door, a kitchen sink, a toilet, a wired smoke alarm, one and possible two exhaust fans and every suite will still have two demising walls (which are more expensive than interior walls)...

as suites get smaller and they trade area for millwork and built-ins to maintain liveability, the cost of millwork on a psf basis increases.

if every suite doesn't have in-suite laundry capacity, then the building has to provide laundry rooms and equipment on every floor.

it's the same reason smaller homes aren't proportionately less expensive than their larger cousins on a psf basis.

[Coldrsx]

Absolutely Ken, but those are for traditional construction. Costs rise if you add units as you so clearly describe.

[Mikemike]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

AT that rate would that exclude or include parking, as per our discussion earlier this year about car-free density bonuses and bringing down the cost overall... To me developers should be given density bonuses if they would work in micro apartments if the project is within the 200m radius of a Rapid Transit stop... In the case of downtown, that's almost all of the CBD...

I like the idea of density bonusing, but for it to be effective we would need to actually treat zoning like it matters.

No rezoning to get more density, you get 6 FAR (or whatever) as-of-right, then for each m2 of micro suite they could get another m2 to add on elsewhere, say up to .75far of micro suites and .75 FAR of bonus for a total of 7.5 FAR. Third+ bedrooms could have a similar bonus.

Strict maximums also allows density transfer to be worth something, which could be a great tool to preserve heritage . Got a 1.5FAR heritage building? sell the 4.5FAR you don't need to a developer who wants to go big on a different lot nearby.

[canucklehead2]

A Made in Edmonton shipping-based container project... Base 208 sq ft unit was priced at around the $50K mark... http://www.honomobo.com/h01/