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  #5381  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:25 PM
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edit: double post

Last edited by BWChicago; Nov 21, 2008 at 11:08 PM.
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  #5382  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 8:32 PM
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
BWC has done a very good job of elaborating on what I alluded to in my first post on the subject. I think these buildings were more exploitative than the typical housing development.... many of their worst faults could have been entirely avoided if they were truly what was intended by the regulations, or should I say, if the regulations were loosened such that the developments could have proceeded with a bit more humanity.

... so there is this evil streak that runs through all the other benefits, and this unfortunately taints the whole picture both from a historic and practical sense.
Yes, unfortunately the negative impacts of these buildings (I still hesitate to blame the developers, who built them in following the guidelines established by zoning and building codes) was largely responsible for what I would call the over-reaction in preventing them going forward. As Taft alludes to, there is a great deal of value for neighborhood vitality in having affordable dense housing options - options that are pretty simply unbuildable in Chicago now due to both the reaction to 4+1s (preventing them in R5 zones), the removal of almost all R6 zoning (wherein something close to a 4+1 could still be be built), and the complete elimination of the R7 and R8 districts that allowed much of the super-urban north lakeshore to take it's current form.

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There is no denying that these buildings tipped the scales on profit far toward the developers, and they did some reprehensible damage
The 1957 zoning ordinance in general was very friendly to developers, as it was largely written by one. I still contest the notion that a 4+1 is exploitative, though: I consider a development to be exploitative if it, say, received a rezoning in order to obtain undue value from it's surrounding at the expense of lessening those surroundings. For example, a spot-zoned Planned Development of a gated insular townhome community in the middle of an urban district (numerous Lincoln Park examples, plus uh, Dearborn Park) obtains it's value via it's relative location and surroundings. But it not only contributes nothing of value to surrounding properties, it actively harms their relative attractiveness by virtue of being so insular. One could make a stretch of an argument that 4+1s did exploit neighborhood value by gobbling up available street parking spaces, but I think that's a stretch especially considering they were built according to the zoning map and ordinance, constituting the de facto plan, in place for the locations in which they were built - and further, they added their own value to the area for the reasons Taft previously discussed. It's nonetheless a sticky issue, as in the context of the late 1950s and early 1960s there was less precedent of neighborhood organization opining on matters of zoning and land use control as there is today, meaning people were blind-sided by the implications of the zoning districts as applied to their property. There's no 100% "right" answer, but I think banning and shunning the general form of the 4+1 was a step backwards for the city.

Last edited by VivaLFuego; Nov 21, 2008 at 10:32 PM.
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  #5383  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2008, 11:16 PM
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For instance, I would argue the density and vibrancy of east Lake View wouldn't exist without them. I would also argue that they provide something that is in high demand in Chicago: relatively cheap housing in a "hip", vibrant neighborhood.
Incidentally, Taft, I sublet a place just across from Treasure Island at Broadway and Stratford for a few months earlier this year. A 4 bedroom with 3 guys I didn't know. I paid $400/month. The building was built in 1916 or so; East Lakeview is full of old apartment buildings with a diverse array of sizes and demographics. A diverse housing mix is what makes a vibrant neighborhood. In contrast, my girlfriend lived in Edgewater around Thorndale, where you see maybe the greatest bunching of 4+1s. This neighborhood had little vibrancy; a conglomeration of 1 bedrooms, kitchenettes, and studios leaves you with a highly transient populace with little investment in their neighborhood. I'm in my 20s, I went to DePaul. I didn't know anyone who lived in a 4+1. However a number of the young GLBT crowd I knew there lived in subsidized housing in some of the towers built with FHA funds in the same era.

Last edited by BWChicago; Nov 21, 2008 at 11:42 PM.
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  #5384  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
Yes, unfortunately the negative impacts of these buildings (I still hesitate to blame the developers, who built them in following the guidelines established by zoning and building codes) was largely responsible for what I would call the over-reaction in preventing them going forward. As Taft alludes to, there is a great deal of value for neighborhood vitality in having affordable dense housing options - options that are pretty simply unbuildable in Chicago now due to both the reaction to 4+1s (preventing them in R5 zones), the removal of almost all R6 zoning (wherein something close to a 4+1 could still be be built), and the complete elimination of the R7 and R8 districts that allowed much of the super-urban north lakeshore to take it's current form.


The 1957 zoning ordinance in general was very friendly to developers, as it was largely written by one. I still contest the notion that a 4+1 is exploitative, though: I consider a development to be exploitative if it, say, received a rezoning in order to obtain undue value from it's surrounding at the expense of lessening those surroundings. For example, a spot-zoned Planned Development of a gated insular townhome community in the middle of an urban district (numerous Lincoln Park examples, plus uh, Dearborn Park) obtains it's value via it's relative location and surroundings. But it not only contributes nothing of value to surrounding properties, it actively harms their relative attractiveness by virtue of being so insular. One could make a stretch of an argument that 4+1s did exploit neighborhood value by gobbling up available street parking spaces, but I think that's a stretch especially considering they were built according to the zoning map and ordinance, constituting the de facto plan, in place for the locations in which they were built - and further, they added their own value to the area for the reasons Taft previously discussed. It's nonetheless a sticky issue, as in the context of the late 1950s and early 1960s there was less precedent of neighborhood organization opining on matters of zoning and land use control as there is today, meaning people were blind-sided by the implications of the zoning districts as applied to their property. There's no 100% "right" answer, but I think banning and shunning the general form of the 4+1 was a step backwards for the city.
Agree 100%. The 4+1 is really just the post war version of the 1910's-1920's courtyard apartment building, which also was a scale and density changer for many neighborhoods as they replaced frame houses from the 1800s. They were filled with cheap apartments, and because of their time frame for construction, have no off-street parking what-so-ever. And yet, these are viewed as being a classic piece of Chicago neighborhoods and provide for housing diversity and affordability. The parking complaints mean nothing to me, sorry but these neighborhoods were built before the car became a mainstay in American culture. If someone is a car whore, then they need to move somewhere else, or put up and shut up.
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  #5385  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 8:18 PM
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  #5386  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 8:20 PM
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  #5387  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 8:29 PM
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What would it take for the zoning code to be revised again? Would it help if federal transportation funds were tied to minimum density requirements?
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  #5388  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 8:39 PM
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New DuSable Harbormaster Building with Green Roof: 200 N. LSD

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  #5389  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 8:48 PM
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The Parkhomes at Lakeshore East

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  #5390  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 9:26 PM
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Nice shots, EarlyBuyer; very cool perspective on that Modern Wing shot. Too bad about those LSE townhomes...they look laughably cheap.
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  #5391  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 9:29 PM
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Thanks for the compliment Jibba.
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  #5392  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 10:24 PM
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Whoa, Early, you are pic-making machine today. Great shots, too.

Hadn't seen that angle on Piano annex before - nice!
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  #5393  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Shawn View Post
The 4+1 is really just the post war version of the 1910's-1920's courtyard apartment building, which also was a scale and density changer for many neighborhoods as they replaced frame houses from the 1800s. They were filled with cheap apartments, and because of their time frame for construction, have no off-street parking what-so-ever. ...
The courtyard buildings have amenities like green space, common space, respectful design, pedestrian scale, multiple points of entrance, apartments that could get natural light and a mix of different apartment sizes. These are all pluses. In contrast, 4+1s lack green space, the common space is a vestibule, they have one entrance, apartments are often dark, and they're pretty much all studios or one beds. 4+1s are expressly car-oriented by virtue of their car level; if your neighbor has a car, you're probably going to have one too. Courtyard buildings, by virtue of their time period, had to be transit oriented to be viable, since, as you say, there wasn't widespread car ownership. 4+1s were built irrespective of transit because of the car culture then and now. 4+1s create parking demand more than most buildings.

And yes, they are explicitly an exploitation of the zoning code. The SOLE reason their parking floor is sunken and unoccupied is to subvert the intent of the fire and zoning codes. Nobody was designing these codes with the idea of a sunken parking floor.The problem is not the density, it's that they cut every possible corner to maximize return on investment. Courtyards were built to a pretty high quality standard, and most of them are still really solid. 4+1s are built to the lowest standard acceptable; thin drywall, hardly any trim, ugly, leaky PTAC units for HVAC, cheap metal-frame windows. All in the name of maximizing developer profit, which has left tenants and management to deal with the problems for the last 40 years. I don't have a problem with contemporary 5 or 6 stories, or high rises, (save for their lack of articulation) because they had to be built to a higher standard; this form was expressly designed so they could be built to a lower standard than intended for units like these.

As to "it's a deficiency in the zoning and building codes, not ill-will by the developers, whose very job it is to maximize return on the equity invested, be it their equity or someone elses" - the idea that developers must build to the lowest acceptable standard with profit above all else is exactly what results in so much crap development. That maximizing profit just means putting all that deficiency on follow-up users to correct. It's extracting value from the users, not providing affordable housing. Not to mention that many of the developments did in fact break code and sought variations after-the-fact. The fact that some developers take a little responsibility instead of just taking that attitude is why we actually have some quality development.

4+1s should serve as a lesson that density can't be held above standards, careful planning, and a responsibility to users. That was a big part of the problem with public housing and modernist planning in general.
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  #5394  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2008, 10:52 PM
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Since 4+1s were legal and profitable, then the city is to blame for allowing such developments, not the developers themselves.

It is a primary job of government (among others) to regulate economic activity and minimize the impact of economic activity on disinterested parties (neighbors, in this case). If they fail to do this, then it is government's fault and not the producers'.

There's nothing immoral about 4+1s, either. A moral argument could be made about pollution, for example, but not these. They may be a little unpleasant, but that corresponds to the price the market was willing to pay at the time. Buyers chose to live in these buildings with all their associated issues, but they could have chosen older or better-quality buildings just as easily. Why did they choose the 4+1s? Because they offered low prices and they were in a desirable location near the lake.

Property appreciation along the lake has now filled these 4+1s with people of a higher income level who can afford to complain about the problems these buildings pose.
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  #5395  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 1:33 AM
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Centaur was awarded the W Hotel City Center project in Chicago. A major plumbing, mechanical and architectural renovation of the existing Hotel which will take place while the Hotel is in operation. Starwood Corporation will spend over 20 million dollars on this very complex project and they picked the Centaur team headed by Jeff Kennedy(Centaur Vice President) and Amanda Gilliam (Centaur Project Manager).

The Centaur sales team is working on landing some very exciting projects in adittion to all of the existing ones but not ready to release any info yet...I'll keep you posted.

I am very proud of our team and feel lucky to be working with the people I'm working with!



The Scene
Formerly the Midland Hotel, the renovated W retains its elegant gilded ceilings and inlaid tile floors. The dark, cushy lobby (nicknamed the Living Room) feels like a hip nightclub, with a resident DJ spinning tunes from the overlooking balcony. It's quite a scene, with more than half the lobby loungers coming from nearby offices for pricey drinks and potential pickups. Black-clad, leggy cocktail waitresses flit from bar to bar--W Cafe, Plateau and Whiskey Blue, all run by Rande Gerber of Whiskey Bar and Grill fame (and Cindy Crawford's hubby). The "whatever you want, whenever you want it" policy is provided with 24-hour concierge service. Meeting rooms include a cozy, loft-like room with fireplace.

The Details
The 390 standard rooms, 11 suites and 38 loft-style rooms combine high-tech amenities (27-inch TVs, high-speed Internet access, cordless phones) with pampering luxuries--chaise lounges in some, cushy robes, Aveda products and goose-down comforters.

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  #5396  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 1:34 AM
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Well I hope the Focus Development project in Evanston has better luck than their Palatine Place project, which looks to be dead. The billboards on site were taken down this week, and the sales center says "closed indefinitely".
The site is vacant and Village owned, so maybe they can mothball and wait for favorable weather. (hadn't broke ground yet)
It was 1st floor retail, underground parking and with 190 units the highest density the zoning would allow. Damn the loss of this one sucks. We're this close to getting critical mass around the Metra station.
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  #5397  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by EarlyBuyer View Post
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...
I didn't even see this one, and I rode over it a couple of times this month.

Thank you EB for the extensive coverage, I still haven't had a good look at the new art wing, and hadn't grasped the amount of damage done to the other one already.

And of course the Aqua sets....
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  #5398  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 3:49 AM
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I was walking in the middle of the LSE park today and saw Aqua with my own eyes for the first time ever (I was flown into town on a job interview).

LSE is turning out to be a great neighborhood. And I like the parkhomes. Classic, modern, whatever.. I'd live there in a heartbeat
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  #5399  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 11:56 AM
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Thanks for the compliments harry!
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  #5400  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2008, 4:18 PM
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There is a 4+1 on Melrose that was revamped and I'd go so far as to even suggest that it is an interesting work of architecture now.
Metro on Melrose, which happens to be my current residence.

Nobody makes the slightest association of this with the other 4+1s on the block after they recladded the exterior in the red stone, glass, and metal.
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