How urban do you see Seattle?

[Ant131531]

LA is also about 400 square miles vs. 80-90 square miles of Seattle and includes mountains in it's city proper. The core of LA is a lot more dense residentially than the core of Seattle.

[chris08876]

LA is the case of a city so vast that its difficult to associate it with density. Even in aerial imagery, it can be deceiving, but its dense; even in neighborhoods that are a mix of low rises and single family homes. But if we could somehow compress the densest neighborhoods, and fit it to lets say 100 sq miles, it will become apparent. Even when it comes to high rises, people don't think LA, but again, its because its so spread out, and density nodes have hot spots which are not clustered around the main CBD like most American cities.

[fflint]

One can divide municipal population by municipal land area and produce similar numbers for Seattle and Los Angeles, but it is irrefutable Los Angeles has large swathes of very high density cityscape while Seattle simply does not. As has been noted many times, LA's density stat reflects the fact there are a couple mountain ranges within city limits. Generally speaking, where people live in Los Angeles the densities are significantly higher than where people live in Seattle. And that holds true for their respective metropolitan areas as well.

Among US cities, Seattle is superlative in many ways--but population density is not one of them.

[JiminyCricket II]

Though it is still no guarantee of happening... There are starting to be whispers of Seattle getting rid of SFH zones, or at least significantly drawing them back:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...n-draft-report

Also, it has hardly been mentioned in this thread, but Capitol Hill is dang near (if not over that threshold) that critical mass of density, transportation, and amenities that makes it a true urban area that you'd see in Brooklyn or SF. It might only be one area of the city, but it is significant in size and a start in the right direction:



Also worth mentioning is the viaduct getting torn down in 2 years, Seattle might be in its Golden Age at the moment.

[kool maudit]

capitol hill looks great.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

capitol hill looks great.

It really is. When I first visited, I was very surprised by how big it was. I'd been expecting an SF-sized neighborhood, but Capitol Hill's density/walk-ability/vibrance covered roughly the same area as The Mission & Castro combined (if not bigger). Not to mention, there were at least more than 4 or 5 main streets full of commerce.

I think it's one of the best urban neighborhoods on the west coast.

PS - can't wait to call it home!

[Centropolis]

aerials like that dont really show seattles funny topography.

[destroycreate]

http://www.landcast.com/file?name=/p...4/DSC_0082.JPG

The amount of construction in the South Lake Union area is staggering. I'm curious though, since most of these buildings belong to Amazon, if it's going to feel overly sterile.

[InlandEmpire]

SLU does feel a litttle sterile at the moment in my opinion, but as all of the residential units are built out and it gets more full-time activity I think that sterility will be tempered a bit. A lot of that feeling is due to the neighborhood being almost completely new(ish) with little left in the way of older structures as well.

I agree Capitol Hill is a fantastic neighborhood - so much to see and do, and a very easy walk to downtown.

[mhays]

That's a pretty old picture, like early 2014. SLU and the near parts of the CBD and Belltown have filled in quite a bit since then. Three of the pits in the foreground are now 12-story offices all opening at once.

SLU is about Amazon, life science organizations, and a moderate amount of other commercial/institutional uses. There's a lot of residential in Cascade (the low area on the left) and it's picking up quickly on the right side of the photo. A few hotel projects are gearing up as well. If a large percentage of that happens, it'll at least be more mixed use vs. the central portion's office focus. That'll help give it a better mix of day/night/weekend activity. And it should help create enough gravity that people visit from other neighborhoods.

But will it feel sterile? Maybe. A huge percentage of what's there now and especially what will be there in a few years is from 2000-2016, heavy on the end of that period. But it also has some older buildings. And the early portions of the boom are already on their second and third tenants in many cases.

Real highrises are coming, vs. the old limit of 160'. Current plans call for 13 towers in the 240-440' range north of Denny Way, where the grid changes. The tallest buildings are only allowed along Denny. Some of these are in the building permit stage and might be 2015 starts.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by mhays

That's a pretty old picture, like early 2014. SLU and the near parts of the CBD and Belltown have filled in quite a bit since then. Three of the pits in the foreground are now 12-story offices all opening at once.

SLU is about Amazon, life science organizations, and a moderate amount of other commercial/institutional uses. There's a lot of residential in Cascade (the low area on the left) and it's picking up quickly on the right side of the photo. A few hotel projects are gearing up as well. If a large percentage of that happens, it'll at least be more mixed use vs. the central portion's office focus. That'll help give it a better mix of day/night/weekend activity. And it should help create enough gravity that people visit from other neighborhoods.

But will it feel sterile? Maybe. A huge percentage of what's there now and especially what will be there in a few years is from 2000-2016, heavy on the end of that period. But it also has some older buildings. And the early portions of the boom are already on their second and third tenants in many cases.

Real highrises are coming, vs. the old limit of 160'. Current plans call for 13 towers in the 240-440' range north of Denny Way, where the grid changes. The tallest buildings are only allowed along Denny. Some of these are in the building permit stage and might be 2015 starts.

I did a google street view exploration and the area reminds me of SOMA in SF, just way less sketchy. It looks like an area that they could have some warehouse style dance clubs in. Where is the core of the clubbing nightlife situated in Seattle?

[InlandEmpire]

There is so much going on in the Denny Triangle area - all of the older photos you see of large parking fields in that area are already gone or will be soon. The city core is moving toward being fully built out very quickly!

Clubbing is clustered in three areas; Capitol Hill, Pioneer Square, and Belltown. Ballard in particular and the outlying major neighborhoods all have fun places to go with a few dance clubs thrown in for good measure.

[mhays]

While vacant lots have been filling in, I'm reminded of how much farther we have to go. Things look pretty different when the photo is more vertical, like the giant poster of this by my desk, taken a month ago.

On one hand, the big parking collections are all reduced, including anything resembling a site where you could cram a stadium for example. But I'll make a wild guess: 100 parking lots in greater Downtown (out of maybe 2,000 acres), averaging 1/2 acre or 75 spaces. That would be 50 acres. If 40% of all land is street or park, that would be 50 out of 1,200 remaining acres. On second though maybe it's a lot more. Not counting street spaces.

Developable land is way more than that of course. We have a ton of buildings that made sense in 1920 or 1960 but don't today. Since the large vacant sites are mostly gone, larger projects tend to tear something down in addition to frequently taking parking lots.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

It really is. When I first visited, I was very surprised by how big it was. I'd been expecting an SF-sized neighborhood, but Capitol Hill's density/walk-ability/vibrance covered roughly the same area as The Mission & Castro combined (if not bigger). Not to mention, there were at least more than 4 or 5 main streets full of commerce.

I think it's one of the best urban neighborhoods on the west coast.

PS - can't wait to call it home!

Capitol Hill is definitely one of the best urban districts on the West Coast. Rather than seeing it as Seattle's 'Brooklyn' as was suggested earlier, I tend to think of it as part of the city's Manhattan. It's Seattle's most traditionally urban neighborhood, is densely populated, stays open late, is significantly gay, etc.

As for your perception Capitol Hill exceeds the Mission and Castro Districts combined in area, that is inaccurate. According to Wikipedia, Capitol Hill is 1.64 square miles with 32,144 residents, while the Mission District is 1.86 square miles with 47,234 residents. Throw in the Castro and you've got 2.39 square miles and 59,298 residents. I'm sure new construction has changed the statistics a bit for all areas in question.

Here's a photo from last month of Capitol Hill from Wikipedia:

[Segun]

I like the fact that Seattle is able to juggle walkable urbanity with residential streets of single family homes. It makes me optimistic for the future of American cities. In reality, most inner cities were built like this around the country.

As much as I have a fondness for wall to wall 3,4,5,6 story buildings, there's nothing like the feel of walking home from an area full of nightlife, 24 hour businesses and seeing quiet, tree-lined streets with porches, and well lit living rooms, hearing the sounds of crickets and birds. I used to dismiss Streetcar urbanity, but as I grow older and have more of a fondness for nature, I'm more receptive to it, especially if it works.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by Segun

I like the fact that Seattle is able to juggle walkable urbanity with residential streets of single family homes. It makes me optimistic for the future of American cities. In reality, most inner cities were built like this around the country.

As much as I have a fondness for wall to wall 3,4,5,6 story buildings, there's nothing like the feel of walking home from an area full of nightlife, 24 hour businesses and seeing quiet, tree-lined streets with porches, and well lit living rooms, hearing the sounds of crickets and birds. I used to dismiss Streetcar urbanity, but as I grow older and have more of a fondness for nature, I'm more receptive to it, especially if it works.

You're totally right. I also feel Seattle is unique in this regard. You'll pass craftsman homes mixed with in clusters of modern 3-4 story townhomes, punctuated by a few huge pre-war brick apartment buildings. I don't know of a city where there's such a mix of styles in a single neighborhood and where it's inconsistent. I guess Koreatown in LA is kind of like that?



My friend lives here on 12th street and I think it's a good example of what I'm referring to.

[Segun]

^ you can find it in places such as Denver, Portland, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Columbus, San Diego, etc........and a smaller scale in secondary cities such as Evanston, Berkeley, Boulder, etc.....College towns do well in this regard too, such as Ann Arbor and Madison.

In its heyday, the entire Detroit was like this too. You'll find remnants of clusters of large high-rises and mid rise apartment buildings (modern for the time) near what used to be destination nodes. If we were to take a time machine back in the day, we'd find hundreds of cities like this. Canada did a better job preserving the fabric of its streetcar urbanity also.

The difference is that today, Seattle is the largest of the bunch and has the most successful downtown out of all of them. Seattle's blueprint is really just a re-hash of the past, updated with a modern twist.

[mello]

Regarding Seattle's congested surface streets how friendly is it to bicycling? I have been biking a lot more here in San Diego and getting more comfortable with riding on commercial streets with lots of car traffic where as before I would try to stick to side streets. What are employment numbers for downtown Seattle (i'm assuming SLU would be included). When people throw out the 400k number for downtwon LA are they including all the "fashion district" manufacturing people who work at American Apparrel and that Santee alley stuff? I'm only asking to see if the white color numbers for are similar for the two cities, I know LA has a bunch of people working in clothing manufacturing and flower marekts etc..

[mhays]

LA's 400k number would need to be a very large area. Otherwise it would have to be something like 75,000,000 sf of office /200 sf x 0.9, plus 60,000 others.

Seattle has decent bike ridership stats. I find it easy and reasonably friendly if you keep to the relatively flat places and don't live on top of a big hill. Infrastructure is being added at a good clip.

Regarding neighborhood acreages, those are highly subjective. But Capitol Hill's dense area is clearly not huge.

[Eightball]

By some measures Seattle is already more expensive than DC... I had no idea

http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blo...stack_up/10095

Also had no idea the PNW had such a strong history of racism... and that Seattle had so few African Americans/blacks (less than 8% of the city right now and steadily declining) ...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...l#.VZ6Q-BFREqM