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Old Posted Jun 28, 2009, 1:59 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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The suburbs of Toulouse - European or American?

Toulouse, in southwest France, is the European capital of the aerospace industry, with notably the headquarters of Airbus, but also many other key actors of the European aerospace industry such as Thales Alenia Space, Galileo, CNES's Toulouse Space Centre, and many more. Once one of the major cities in Europe (it was the fourth largest European city at the fall of the Roman Empire, and later the capital of the Visigothic Kingdom of Toulouse which extended from the Loire Valley in the north to the Strait of Gilbratar in the south), Toulouse fell into decline after the Renaissance and completely missed the Industrial Revolution, thus falling down the ranks of European cities. However, the fortunes of the city have been revived since the relocation of key aerospace industries there in the 20th century.

Due to its flourishing high-tech industrial base, as well as its southern climate and vibrant character, Toulouse is attracting lots of new residents (including many foreign engineers from northern European countries) and is thus one of the fastest growing cities in Europe. Between the 1999 and 2006 censuses, the metropolitan area of Toulouse registered a population growth of nearly 2% a year, which is enormous for a European city. The metropolitan area of Toulouse (as defined in 1999) saw its population grow from 841,152 in 1990 to 1,102,882 in 2006. Population growth has remained high since 2006, and the city has not been affected by the world crisis so far (the aerospace industry usually lags 2-3 years behind the rest of the economy, and in previous downturns of the aerospace industry Toulouse nonetheless continued to grow steadily). The metro area is thus on its way to reach 1.5 million by 2025, perhaps even 2 million by mid-century, which would have Toulouse rank once again among the major cities in Europe.

As a consequence of this huge population growth, many suburbs have appeared around Toulouse in the past 40 years. Toulouse is one of the most "suburbanized" cities in Europe, so to speak. People there like to have their detached houses with garden and swimming pool, so the urbanization is now spreading more than 30 km from the center of Toulouse in all directions. It's quite different from the denser urbanization in northern Europe. Toulouse is also one of the European metropolitan areas with the most use of private cars, and the least use of public transportation (despite the opening of two subway lines in the past 15 years).

I've always found Toulouse fascinating because it's so different from the rest of France and indeed from the rest of Europe. I often find life there more American than European in many respects, but you be the judge. I took some aerial pictures of the suburbs of Toulouse with Bing Aerial Images. The pictures were taken all over the suburbs, north, south, east, west, with different levels of zooms, trying to show the varied aspects of the suburbs. Most of the areas shown in the pics are less than 20 years old, so what you'll see here are essentially the suburbs that have appeared since 1990.

So, European or American? Feel free to comment.



1.


2.


3. This huge shopping mall, where I shopped once, is actually quite pleasant at ground level.


4.


5. The Roman atrium still lives on in the suburban villas of Toulouse (at one time the fourth-largest city in the Western Roman Empire).


6.


7. And the building boom continues... Got to accomodate 20,000 new people every year in the metro area.


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9.


10. This one is actually officially the largest hypermarket in France, perhaps also in Europe, I don't know. I went there once, it's BIG.


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17. Airbus-land.


18.


19. A380, baby!


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23.
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Old Posted Jun 29, 2009, 8:13 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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WOW! Amazing pics and a little perspective for those who tend to generalize Europe's layout as being all dense and mass-transit oriented. Apparently that is not the case...those burbs look more hideous than what we have here!

Thanks for sharing.

p.s. if you took these pics, you should move them out of the "Found City Photos" forum.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 8:30 AM
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Wow. I had no idea things like this existed outside of the US.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 9:13 AM
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Yep, looks pretty American. Swap out the Carrefour sign for a Walmart Supercenter sign and you probably could have told me that these pictures were of Florida or Georgia (because of the swimming pools).
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 9:38 AM
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^yeah no kidding.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 11:28 AM
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Actually most of French (and European probably) suburbs look like that. It's not particular to Toulouse, even if it's more spectacular in this city due to its booming population.
But you will find the same urban landscapes in the suburbs of Montpellier, Bordeaux or Nantes.

The main difference between these French suburbs and the American suburbs is that American ones accommodate most of the urban population (I don't know, perhaps 80 or 90 %) while the percentage of urban population living in the French ones is far less important (depending on the city, maybe from 30 to 60 %).
Besides that, I think that public transport is generally quite well developped even in this kind of suburbs.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 2:32 PM
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Sad.

1. Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

2. And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there's doctors and there's lawyers
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
3. And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.

4. And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.
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Old Posted Jun 30, 2009, 4:06 PM
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Looks pretty American with maybe a little Australian mixed in. The real key though is does this type of low density suburban development spread out over 100 square miles like it would in the states or is this a fairly small area—relatively speaking?
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Old Posted Jul 1, 2009, 3:53 PM
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Looks american.
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Old Posted Jul 2, 2009, 7:25 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Looks pretty American with maybe a little Australian mixed in. The real key though is does this type of low density suburban development spread out over 100 square miles like it would in the states or is this a fairly small area—relatively speaking?
It spreads 30 km (20 miles) all around downtown Toulouse (but it is not fully built-up everywhere, i.e. if you took a circle with its center at the center of Toulouse and a 30 km radius, you would still find lots of unbuilt areas in this circle, although it's rapidly building up). It's common knowledge in Toulouse now that if you're young and you're just starting your career, you have to go 30 km from the Capitole (the "Capitole" is the name of the Toulouse city hall at the center of the city) to find a house you can afford. My parents live 50 km (30 miles) from the center of Toulouse, and they see more and more Toulouse people who come to buy a house in their area and make the 50 km commute every day (by car it takes only 30 minutes to reach downtown Toulouse from my parents' town thanks to the high speed limit on French freeways; by train it takes 25 minutes, but more people use cars than take the train). Local authorities say my parents' town, 50 km from downtown Toulouse, will become a suburb of Toulouse by 2030.

Anyway, above all it's the sprawl compared to the overall population that is impressive in Toulouse. For a metro area of 1.1 million people, sprawl reaching 30 km from the center of the city is rather unusual in Europe, and even for the US it would be quite sprawly (a bit like Sacramento). In comparison, a city like Birmingham (England) has 2 million people in its metro area, but they are spread over a much smaller surface, which is more typical of Europe.
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Old Posted Jul 2, 2009, 8:03 PM
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What is also interresting to see is how it constrast with the inner city.
The inner city of Toulouse is very southwestern european, so denser than the inner city of northern Europe.

Brisavoine used Birmingham in comparaison, so while Toulouse urban area is far less dense, Toulouse is center is denser than Birmingham center.

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Old Posted Jul 6, 2009, 4:48 AM
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the houses in france are constructed differently. ours are wood framed, they look like CMU blocks over there.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1658/toulouse8.png
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2009, 2:37 PM
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What is the primary cause for the suburban growth? Is it population increase or is there a real estate value issue in the center city or is there crime issues. You say that young people are moving way out there to buy a house—can they not find housing in the city, $, or are they specifically looking for a suburban style single family house to raise their families "American style?"
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2009, 10:33 PM
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The primary cause for the suburban growth is the huge population increase of nearly 2% a year. It's impossible to accomodate so many people in the inner city. If the authorities tried too, they would have to demolish many 1 to 3 floor buildings built on the edge of the downtown area in the first half of the 20th century, and replace them with 6 to 8 floor buildings as exist in the downtown area, or even taller, but that kind of ambitious urban renewal is not on the agenda in Toulouse: its costs too much, financially and politically (politicians are afraid of asking people who live in 1 to 3 floor buildings on the edge of downtown Toulouse to leave their homes so they can be demolished and replaced with denser developments). It's way easier to allow new developments further away in the suburbs, by buying fields from the farmers and having them developped. That's why Toulouse is ever expanding. It's no Hong Kong.

Concerning young people moving far to find a house, there are two reasons for that. First of all, because the central municipality doesn't have the guts to expand the inner city by demolishing low-rise buildings on the edge of the downtown area, the prices of dwellings in the central areas tend to increase, since supply is limited, and so the young people have to look further afield to find cheaper dwellings. The second reason is the municipalities in the first ring of suburbs, which started to be urbanized in the 1970s, now have more or less frozen new developments in their municipalities (nimbyism maybe, I'm not sure), so there is lot of farming land in the 1st ring of suburbs that lies undevelopped, while at the same time the municipalities in the 2nd and 3rd rings of suburbs are opening land for development (because it brings money in the municipal coffers and makes the farmers rich), which is why affordable dwellings are now to be found in the 2nd and increasingly 3rd rings of suburbs.

There is also the fact that young families are looking for the single family house with garden and swimming pool. In Toulouse, few people like to live in apartments. Most people prefer to have detached houses with gardens, the so called "villa". If you want to buy a "villa" and you're young, you have to go to the 2nd and 3rd rings of suburbs to find affordable ones (the 1st ring of suburbs is where the parents of young people live, where they bought their houses in the 1970s). Some people even go further than the 3rd ring of suburbs, all the way to my parents' area 50 km (30 miles) from downtown Toulouse, to find even cheaper houses.

Toulouse sits in a very empty corner of Europe, density 200 km around Toulouse is very low for Western Europe, almost comparable to the population density in the US Midwest, so there is no large city or urban area stopping the spread of the metropolitan area. In northern Europe, you couldn't move too far from the center of the city in search of cheap housing, because you would soon run into the next city or urban area, where housing prices would again be high, whereas in Toulouse you can go as far from the city center as you want, the further you go the cheaper it gets. The next big city is 250 km (150 miles) away, so there is room. The only limit really is the time you're ready to spend in your car commute every day. If it took only half an hour to drive 150 km (100 miles), I'm sure there would be some Toulouse people moving 150 km from the city center to find cheap houses. People also like the fact that they live in the rural countryside but work and shop in the big city next door. That's something that is impossible in northern Europe where population density is high, but in the Toulouse region you can have that luxury due to the vast empty spaces lying all around the city for hundreds of kilometers. And a gorgeous scenic landscape at that, dotted with Romanesque churches, vineyards, forests, beautiful pre-19th century farms. A lot of people had rather live there, and do the 30 minutes drive to the big city, rather than live in crammed apartments in the inner city.
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Old Posted Jul 6, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMancuso View Post
the houses in france are constructed differently. ours are wood framed, they look like CMU blocks over there.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1658/toulouse8.png
Does look like masonry construction. South Florida due to hurricane code is predominantly masonry constriction as well.
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Old Posted Jul 7, 2009, 12:15 AM
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For an idea of what I meant in my last message, this is the scenic countryside around Toulouse where many people choose to live despite the long commutes (especially the newcomers from crowded northern Europe who come to work for Airbus and the other high-tech industries). The ski slopes of the Pyrenees (which you can see in the first pic) are only one and a half hour by car from Toulouse:



This one is only half an hour by car from downtown Toulouse:


This one is 40 minutes from downtown Toulouse:


This one in the 3rd ring of suburbs to the north of the city (the guy carefully shot his picture so the suburbs are not visible, but they are there just behind the photographer). Toulouse authorities plan to build the new Toulouse airport there, but local people are admantly opposed:


On that picture you can actually see the 2nd ring of suburbs up the hills on the horizon. Those hills are 20 minutes by car from downtown Toulouse (without traffic jam of course):


Young families typically move to these old villages in the 3rd ring of sububs, about 30 km from downtown Toulouse, where a lot of land is being opened for development (the 21st century suburbs are built litterally next to the Medieval village nuclei):


A typical pre-18th century farm in the 3rd ring of suburbs (about 30 minutes from downtown Toulouse by car). Maybe it's a German or Northern French engineer working at Airbus who lives there, who knows.


Another typical pre-18th century farm around Toulouse. These are dearly sough after by upper-middle class people (they renovate them, usually add a swimming pool and sometimes a tennis court, not to forget the BBQ area):


Typical Medieval church in the 3rd ring of suburbs:


Again the rolling countryside around Toulouse. This is only a 20 minutes drive from the main Airbus site, and about 35 minutes from downtown Toulouse:


Another Medieval church in the 3rd ring of suburbs:


An ancient ruin in the countryside around Toulouse (Toulouse is sometimes reminiscent of Spain, and sometimes of Italy; definitely NOT Parisian):


One of the many rural estates dotting the countryside around Toulouse, but that's for the rich people. This one is only an incredible 15 minutes drive from the main Airbus site:


This one is interesting because you can see a bit of the suburbanization that is little by little engulfing the vast countryside beyond the 2nd ring of suburbs. As I said, people prefer to live in this scenic semi-rural environment on the edges of the city rather than in crammed apartments in the inner city.
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Old Posted Jul 7, 2009, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMancuso View Post
the houses in france are constructed differently. ours are wood framed, they look like CMU blocks over there.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1658/toulouse8.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLO View Post
Does look like masonry construction. South Florida due to hurricane code is predominantly masonry constriction as well.
Houses in the suburbs of Toulouse, and most of southern France, are made of hollow insulating bricks covered with plaster. The roofs are covered with light redish-light brownish tiles. In northern France houses are built differently, with different materials.

Insulating bricks:




Covered with plaster:




Tiles used in the region (the tiles were brought to the region by the Romans 2000 years ago):




[img][/img]
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Old Posted Jul 16, 2009, 3:33 AM
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From Google Earth the development around Toulouse actually looks even more sprawly than many American cities in terms of how the street system is developed. Also the housing lots being square instead of rectangular as they typically are in North America seems to result in more wasted space.

I like to swim and enjoy water, but I LOL'd at the proliferation of backyard pools...I'm guessing that's a novelty for middle-class Europeans and they don't know the negatives yet. Does nobody realize how much it costs to run the pump, maintain the water levels, replace filters, add chemicals, and plus you have to clean it yourself. All for a wimpy little oval of shallow water you can't do laps in. 5 years from now in those aerial pictures you'll see a lot more green murky water and blue tarps...

Last edited by llamaorama; Jul 16, 2009 at 3:59 AM.
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Old Posted Jul 16, 2009, 9:57 AM
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surprise surprise
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
Apparently that is not the case...those burbs look more hideous than what we have here!
Well, I'm not sure about that... but then I am comparing with Southwest US style suburbs.

otherwise, the "typical" Europe photos from around Toulouse are wonderful ;P
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Old Posted Jul 16, 2009, 3:41 PM
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It's European!
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