PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

D'oh, the article says the arena opened in 2016. Come on, man.

Nah, brah...my earlier post from Philly.com says its from 1996. PBJ incorrectly stated 2016. Everyone knew that.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Article is not correct if that’s what it says. It was 1996.

Obviously, that’s what I was pointing out.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by allovertown

The talk of the sixers playing in a their own new arena has nothing to do with the condition of the WFC. Comcast Spectacor owns both the flyers and the WFC, while the sixers are owed by Harris and are tenants of Comcast Spectacor. That's the issue for Harris, the sixers would be far more valuable if they owned their own arena instead of having to pay rent to stay at WFC. To be clear, there has been no credible news that the Sixers want to put that arena in Camden, that is simply speciation.

Harris is a billionaire distressed asset guy. The Sixers are already worth at least 3-5 times what he paid for them. The thinking is he will eventually leverage the first run of success the Sixers have to squeeze out some government funding for an arena and then turn around and sell for massive profit. Most of this is just rumors and speculation, though there is enough consistency regarding these rumors that it seems likely there is at least a sliver of truth to them.

Just viewing this as a basketball fan, I'd like to see an arena that was build around b'ball first and foremost. And I'd like it to be 'in town', maybe north of 30th. St. Station.

I'm assuming that what Harris wants, in theory, from his own arena is not just not having to pay rent but all the secondary income a stadium could kick out, concerts, meetings, advertising, food, and certainly being able to sell the naming rights. But if the numbers would work, then I'm sure he would be looking for ways to break his lease and get his hands on some gov't backed corporate welfare and start building. Would having his own arena increase the value of his property as much or more then the cost of building it.

BTW, the Spectrum opened in 67 or 68, so it served the needs for 30+- years

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

Obviously, that’s what I was pointing out.

Well, it wasn’t obvious based on your posts in conjunction with some of your other posts...I think a bunch of us read it as believing the article and chastising he team for considering upgrading right after the last one. But glad everyone is on the same page!

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Just viewing this as a basketball fan, I'd like to see an arena that was build around b'ball first and foremost. And I'd like it to be 'in town', maybe north of 30th. St. Station.

I'm assuming that what Harris wants, in theory, from his own arena is not just not having to pay rent but all the secondary income a stadium could kick out, concerts, meetings, advertising, food, and certainly being able to sell the naming rights. But if the numbers would work, then I'm sure he would be looking for ways to break his lease and get his hands on some gov't backed corporate welfare and start building. Would having his own arena increase the value of his property as much or more then the cost of building it.

BTW, the Spectrum opened in 67 or 68, so it served the needs for 30+- years

All those bonuses regarding hosting concerts and other events are sort of baked into the cake as far as why it is advantageous to own your own arena. It's also part of why I always thought the idea that this arena could end up in Camden as misguided speculation. The practice facility ended up in Camden because it doesn't really matter geographically where that is located as long as it is easy for the players to get to. The players are all going to drive there, they're not going to step foot off the facility itself which has parking and all kinds of amenities. So the fact that it's in Camden, is kind of irrelevant. That's why Harris just shopped around for the largest subsidies and went with it.

An arena is a different beast. You have to attract fans to it, they have to want to come. Camden has a stigma and that makes it more of a hard sell. But honestly it hurts that secondary income more. If you are a sixers fan, you'll go to Camden cause that's the only place the sixers will be playing here in philly area. But with concerts and other entertainment, there are a bunch of other venues in the metro, why would a performer choose camden over south philly? Even if they are choosing Camden, you still have competition with whatever they're calling the Tweeter Center these days. If the arena was downtown, then that is a different animal. Philly currently does not have a venue like that downtown, and secondary revenue streams would likely be very profitable.

So I assume to maximize his value, Harris wants the new arena downtown. If he built it all himself, he would still stand to make money, but it's a lot more risky, whereas if he receives significant government funding that's basically money in his pocket if he sells.

Overall, I like the idea of a downtown arena and think they make far more sense than downtown stadiums. But I don't think Harris builds it without significant government help, so I honestly hope it doesn't happen if that's the case. The public shouldn't pay for an unnecessary arena just to put a few more bucks in a billionaire's pocket.

[Brandywine Rocks]

Delaware Ave development. North of the Home Depot .

Philly Voice does a good job on development news . Phillycom used to be a go to site until they put up the paywall.

http://www.phillyvoice.com/philly-de...elaware-river/

[Brandywine Rocks]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm in the camp of all pro sports in one place is best - basketball included. I don't want them at 8th & Market, Schuylkill Yards and especially not Camden (not to hate on Jersey, but there's a mental barrier and an extra toll fee).

IMO the indoor entertainment venues belong in Center City. Wells Fargo Center I believe is always among the most attended stadiums in the world. Its a monster and all those millions of fans that go to Flyers/sixers/Concerts/ice Capades belong downtown where they can patronize the restaurants,bars , shops etc etc..

I get it from Comcast spectacor p.o.v. They want the parking and concession revenue all to themselves.

Thats why you need strong civic leadership to put the money makers in the right location. Something Philadelophia has been lacking the past 50 years.

they always take the cheapest easiest way. The path of least resistance.

[Brandywine Rocks]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Just viewing this as a basketball fan, I'd like to see an arena that was build around b'ball first and foremost. And I'd like it to be 'in town', maybe north of 30th. St. Station.

Agree. Id like to see The Sixers ownership group build a new indoor arena in Center City. Another anchor for the future.

if Comcast Spectacor wants to monopolize ticket buyers down in their little remote cash corner at Broad + Pattison let them have the Flyers fans.

Hopefully one day there will be an alternative/competitor arena in Center City.

I am all about atmosphere and aura creating its own energy and Broad + Pattison has ZERO of that.

[eixample]

Downtown stadiums/arenas bring downtown parking lots/garages. Do you really want to create an entrenched parking, anti-development deadzone in the center city area ringing the new bball arena? The convention center/Chinatown area is bad enough with that as it is

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by eixample

Downtown stadiums/arenas bring downtown parking lots/garages. Do you really want to create an entrenched parking, anti-development deadzone in the center city area ringing the new bball arena? The convention center/Chinatown area is bad enough with that as it is

Yep, either Camden or sports complex make the most sense

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by eixample

Downtown stadiums/arenas bring downtown parking lots/garages. Do you really want to create an entrenched parking, anti-development deadzone in the center city area ringing the new bball arena? The convention center/Chinatown area is bad enough with that as it is

Not really. Other NEC cities seem to handle this well. A basketball stadium is nowhere near the size of the convention center.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Yep, either Camden or sports complex make the most sense

I could also see it landing by 30th Street. Maybe a North Broad location would make sense as well. Camden is tricky, it would either be a direct replacement for the BB-8 Center or the old River sharks stadium.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

An arena is a different beast. You have to attract fans to it, they have to want to come. Camden has a stigma and that makes it more of a hard sell. But honestly it hurts that secondary income more. If you are a sixers fan, you'll go to Camden cause that's the only place the sixers will be playing here in philly area. But with concerts and other entertainment, there are a bunch of other venues in the metro, why would a performer choose camden over south philly? Even if they are choosing Camden, you still have competition with whatever they're calling the Tweeter Center these days. If the arena was downtown, then that is a different animal. Philly currently does not have a venue like that downtown, and secondary revenue streams would likely be very profitable.

So I assume to maximize his value, Harris wants the new arena downtown. If he built it all himself, he would still stand to make money, but it's a lot more risky, whereas if he receives significant government funding that's basically money in his pocket if he sells.

Overall, I like the idea of a downtown arena and think they make far more sense than downtown stadiums. But I don't think Harris builds it without significant government help, so I honestly hope it doesn't happen if that's the case. The public shouldn't pay for an unnecessary arena just to put a few more bucks in a billionaire's pocket.

I like this take, hope you're right.

Originally Posted by Brandywine Rocks

I am all about atmosphere and aura creating its own energy and Broad + Pattison has ZERO of that.

Originally Posted by Justin7

Not really. Other NEC cities seem to handle this well. A basketball stadium is nowhere near the size of the convention center.

It's possible to have a small footprint, but that really does take away from the experience. You get a little from MSG, but there's always the caveat of trying to replicate something in NYC. If you go to the Verizon Center in DC, the stadium is so integrated into the neighborhood that it's almost anticlimactic. There is no energy. I think the Palestra and Liacouras Center do decent jobs, but there's much greater energy at Wells Fargo than either of them (and if the Sixers make a late post season run, I'm sure the benefits of all that tailgate space in the warm weather will highlight this atmosphere even more). It may not be the most urban part of Philly, but sea of asphalt or not, it is an iconic Philly location. There's a reason a sports museum is going here. This is the Philly sports district. It's hosted just as many, if not more, major events as the Parkway has and many of them ::cough Wing Bowl cough:: should be kept away from Center City.

I hope allovertown is right and the Sixers stay in the Wells Fargo Center for it's life and when it's time to move on, they end up with a new arena where the Vet use to be (and, if Comcast still owns the Flyers by then, maybe they build a place on top of Xfinity Live).

[diavolo]

Originally Posted by summersm343

$7M Philadelphia Holocaust Memorial Plaza breaks ground on the Parkway

Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2017/11/29...groundbreaking

Last week they removed about half a dozen trees, the 3' retaining wall and the dirt from the tree area. The memorial is boxed up with the light blue wood.

From this morning, March 6th 2018:

[Nova08]

There is really no where to put an arena in center city, I'm not even sure there is room in Camden after the ongoing waterfront development. University City has so much going for it, I don't think we need an arena in place of labs and other commercial space for tech/healthcare companies.

There is some novelty about an inner city arena/stadium but when that the same land could be used for 400-800 ft tall buildings full of 24/7 commercial/residential space I much prefer that.

Adding another arena will just make the two less crowded as the both vie for events.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Nova08

There is really no where to put an arena in center city, I'm not even sure there is room in Camden after the ongoing waterfront development. University City has so much going for it, I don't think we need an arena in place of labs and other commercial space for tech/healthcare companies.

There is some novelty about an inner city arena/stadium but when that the same land could be used for 400-800 ft tall buildings full of 24/7 commercial/residential space I much prefer that.

Adding another arena will just make the two less crowded as the both vie for events.

Not a proponent, but this would likely be close to 10 years down the line, so there would be space in Schuylkill Yards or (unfortunately still likely availability at) 8th and Market. Camden has plenty of space if you take a step back from the water front - maybe near their practice facilities? I confess I don't know Camden that well. If an arena were built downtown, it would likely be part of something dynamic with out-facing retail included.

It's definitely in Comcast's best interest to prevent the competition from popping up [insert Comcast monopolistic tenancy jokes here]. If/when Temple builds a football stadium, that would be similar capacity as a new venue (granted, it will be outdoor) and will increase the concert competition so that should be extra incentive for them right there. Hopefully they treat the Sixers as good tenants moving forward and maybe are willing to/convince Harris to build whatever comes next as a joint partnership, again, in the Sports complex (a no brainer for Comcast).

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Nova08

There is really no where to put an arena in center city, I'm not even sure there is room in Camden after the ongoing waterfront development. University City has so much going for it, I don't think we need an arena in place of labs and other commercial space for tech/healthcare companies.

There is some novelty about an inner city arena/stadium but when that the same land could be used for 400-800 ft tall buildings full of 24/7 commercial/residential space I much prefer that.

Adding another arena will just make the two less crowded as the both vie for events.

In Camden the two easy sites are: Campbell's Field much is currently slated for demolition, and the BB&T Center which is now 20 years old and in need of renovation/replacement/

[McBane]

Originally Posted by allovertown

An arena is a different beast. You have to attract fans to it, they have to want to come. Camden has a stigma and that makes it more of a hard sell. But honestly it hurts that secondary income more. If you are a sixers fan, you'll go to Camden cause that's the only place the sixers will be playing here in philly area. But with concerts and other entertainment, there are a bunch of other venues in the metro, why would a performer choose camden over south philly? Even if they are choosing Camden, you still have competition with whatever they're calling the Tweeter Center these days. If the arena was downtown, then that is a different animal. Philly currently does not have a venue like that downtown, and secondary revenue streams would likely be very profitable.

I want the Sixers to remain in Philly, preferably South Philly. But I think you're putting too much stock in Camden's woes. Most people know two Camdens: the Camden Waterfront and Camden Camden. Plenty of people go to the Aquarium and whatever they're calling the music venue these days without ever setting foot anywhere else (We have an aquarium membership and take our young children all the time - no safety concerns whatsoever). Whatever crime and blight is happening in the city isn't stopping anyone from visiting the waterfront attractions. And this doesn't even count all the folks who will be working along there soon enough.

Again, I'd much rather keep all the sports venues centralized but I wouldn't dismiss Camden so quickly.

You do make an interesting point about ancillary venue income. To answer your question, why would a performer choose Camden over South Philly? Lots of reasons. That's why there is a music venue on the Camden Waterfront that attracts all sorts of big time acts. With that being said however, you're not going to get TWO music venues along the Camden Waterfront. That's just not happening. Neither is AHL hockey, since the Flyers/Comcast own the Phantoms. Mr. Harris would have to think of something else to fill the seats when the Sixers are not playing.

[Brandywine Rocks]

Originally Posted by eixample

Downtown stadiums/arenas bring downtown parking lots/garages. Do you really want to create an entrenched parking, anti-development deadzone in the center city area ringing the new bball arena? The convention center/Chinatown area is bad enough with that as it is

There are close to 300 rail stops between Septa, NJ Transit and the River Line that alleviates the need for parking garages. This area has great transit infrastructure and should be taking full advantage of that.

As far as Chinatown already being too overcrowded? Great Downtowns can never bee too vibrant, populated , congested or busy. You can never have enough concert goers, or attendees of sports matches walking around center city spending money in bars, restaurants, shops.

[McBane]

Oh we're talking about downtown/urban stadiums/arenas? Except for a few exceptions that have been around for decades (Fenway, Wrigley, MSG, Yankee Stadium), downtown stadiums are most usually found in B cities as part of an economic development tool to help revive a boring or decaying downtown. Philadelphia, thankfully, doesn't need that.

South Philly can keep all the stadiums, their sea of parking lots, and cheesy/chain bars and restaurants.