Radical proposals to address climate change and the housing crisis

[eschaton]

Free migration of people benefits workers as a whole, insofar as it helps to level the playing field against capital. Businesses are free to set up shop wherever they wish, after all. If workers can also choose to relocate wherever they wish to maximize their pay, it should help cause global wages to rise/arrest the race to the bottom.

That said, this is just workers as a whole, not workers in any particular country. The current experience of the U.S. makes it clear that labor shortages do cause wages to rise, and one of the reason there's a labor shortage is immigration has slowed to a trickle over the past two years.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Free migration of people benefits workers as a whole, insofar as it helps to level the playing field against capital. Businesses are free to set up shop wherever they wish, after all. If workers can also choose to relocate wherever they wish to maximize their pay, it should help cause global wages to rise/arrest the race to the bottom.

That said, this is just workers as a whole, not workers in any particular country. The current experience of the U.S. makes it clear that labor shortages do cause wages to rise, and one of the reason there's a labor shortage is immigration has slowed to a trickle over the past two years.

That's if every country operated on a laszziefair very libertarian economic model with no protectionism, little if any social safety net etc. which we can agree is not how things work.

Then capitol and labor would all settle out to where its most efficient. But is that really our goal? And even if eveyrone was willing to do that and play ball you are talking generations of damage to developed countries until brick makers in Mozambique catch up to the relative wealth of the working class in Europe and the USA

Called me old fashioned but I dont feel like sacrificing my grandkids economic well being for the potential global gains in a perfect unrealistic dream.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Obadno

That's if every country operated on a laszziefair very libertarian economic model with no protectionism, little if any social safety net etc. which we can agree is not how things work.

Then capitol and labor would all settle out to where its most efficient. But is that really our goal? And even if eveyrone was willing to do that and play ball you are talking generations of damage to developed countries until brick makers in Mozambique catch up to the relative wealth of the working class in Europe and the USA

Called me old fashioned but I dont feel like sacrificing my grandkids economic well being for the potential global gains in a perfect unrealistic dream.

I mean, we can use real world examples here. Most of the EU has open borders, and Eastern Europe is emptying of young workers, who move to places in western Europe for higher pay. This has in turn caused wages to rise dramatically in Eastern Europe, because firms realize they need to be able to offer really good packages to have someone decide to stay in Latvia over moving to Germany.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I mean, we can use real world examples here. Most of the EU has open borders, and Eastern Europe is emptying of young workers, who move to places in western Europe for higher pay. This has in turn caused wages to rise dramatically in Eastern Europe, because firms realize they need to be able to offer really good packages to have someone decide to stay in Latvia over moving to Germany.

Yes the Eu and the us have open borders within their joint government area but not outside of it. And the PIIGS have been a strain on the tottering Eu for 2 decades. The uk just left, the eastern states are not playing along, Greece collapse economically

Even in the us Brian drain and concentration of wealth into cities while killing the rural areas has been a major problem

Now imagine it’s not Nebraskans leaving for nyc but hundreds of millions of Africans moving to nyc with literally 0 money

Good luck

[SFBruin]

I think that the US should allow immigration from any country that allows immigration of Americans.

[Segun]

Some of our leaders shape policy on "good moral grounds", which I believe is smart policy, but unfortunately petty political differences get in the way of logic.

For instance, I believe an honest minimum wage worker @ part time should be at least able to afford to live comfortably in a safe neighborhood with affordable and easily accessible amenities in a studio apartment at the very least

and a full-time worker at minimum wage should be able to do the same with a one-bedroom apartment in the same conditions

Hell at one time we could afford entire homes working full time at minimum wage. Where's all the "lets go back to the way things were" rhetoric for that fact? Where that at now?

We forgot the phrase "theres dignity in all work" and thats where we f'd up.

#AMERICA

[pdxtex]

One quarter of the earth's population will be African by 2050. Im pretty sure any efforts in the west will be in vain.

[C.]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

One quarter of the earth's population will be African by 2050. Im pretty sure any efforts in the west will be in vain.

On a similar note, I can see countries with large Muslim, and to a lessor extent, Orthodox Jewish populations growing crazy fast in the United States and abroad due to the religious expectations of large families.

Nigeria, Pakistan, and Indonesia are all projected to have populations more or less equal to the Untied States by 2050. With Globalization and the Catch Up Effect, while adding in mass displacement because of climate change, the world in 2050 will look very different.

It's going to be a challenge on where to house billions of new people over the next 30 years in areas that are not in high-risk flood zones.

If you though housing prices were bad now...

[C.]

Originally Posted by ue

The cost of land is fiction produced by speculation and manipulation of the market. It doesn't mean anything more than we give to it. New York has, over many decades, come into a lot of surplus land, and that could've easily been geared to more modest incomes. But instead we have Hudson Yards, which, despite being a luxury development, got significant tax abatements. Instead of subsidizing the wealthy, New York should be subsidizing those most marginalized.

The cost of land is not a fiction. At the end of the day, the Laws of Supply and Demand remain supreme. I do agree that New York State has a lot of economic development programs that provide subsidies for luxury real estate in exchange for a token amount of affordable housing. New York would be a lot better off if it did away with these programs and instead instituted a progressive property tax system, with the revenues funding affordable housing for those that need it most, but that's another story for another thread.

Because of New York City's desirability, real estate is always going to be sky high and unaffordable to anyone on a modest income unless there is direct financial support in terms of rental subsidies or restrictions limiting the amount that can be charged for new housing. Personally, New Jersey and other suburbs can play a role in housing people as long as there is good transportation into and out of the employment centers in NYC.

[Segun]

Supply and demand can be manipulated through popular culture, especially when it comes to issues of housing. The idea of an area being less affordable has less to do with the amount of amenities it has and more to do with how its marketed. The "cool" factor. If NYC's young rich decides that the old wealth areas are dusty and outdated, the prices will eventually change along with it, or people will try to speculate forever in the hopes that it reaches it's glory days in status.

[C.]

Originally Posted by Segun

Supply and demand can be manipulated through popular culture, especially when it comes to issues of housing. The idea of an area being less affordable has less to do with the amount of amenities it has and more to do with how its marketed. The "cool" factor. If NYC's young rich decides that the old wealth areas are dusty and outdated, the prices will eventually change along with it, or people will try to speculate forever in the hopes that it reaches it's glory days in status.

True. Neighborhoods change with time.

This is probably why all the 60s TV shows showed big homes in the suburbs. Propaganda. As a result, that's what people of that generation ended up wanting.

[jd3189]

^^^ We need to market the suburbs again then. That might bring normalcy back to the housing market. Most Americans would rather live with some space then without.

[llamaorama]

Why do the suburbs need marketing again? Pretty sure judging by the growth of Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa, Charlotte, etc it would be unnecessary.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Is there any chance of this thread getting back on topic?

[jd3189]

Sorta on topic is the great migrations that will occur as climate change progresses. Without dikes, levees, dams, etc to protect coastal cities from being swallowed by sea level rise, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Seattle, Boston, most of LA and SF, and other coastal metros from across the country and world will start having to function like Venice or be abandoned.

One radical idea I thought about was creating submarine development. People could live underwater in certain areas. It would be pretty neat.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by C.

On a similar note, I can see countries with large Muslim, and to a lessor extent, Orthodox Jewish populations growing crazy fast in the United States and abroad due to the religious expectations of large families.

Nigeria, Pakistan, and Indonesia are all projected to have populations more or less equal to the Untied States by 2050. With Globalization and the Catch Up Effect, while adding in mass displacement because of climate change, the world in 2050 will look very different.

It's going to be a challenge on where to house billions of new people over the next 30 years in areas that are not in high-risk flood zones.

If you though housing prices were bad now...

Disagree, Muslim populations in the USA are very small and they tend to either be secular high income immigrants already or their birthrates fall rapidly to be in line with the Western standard. And all countries pretty much collapse birthrates after they largely industrialize. I fully expect Africa to do the same.

At least in the USA and Europe, Orthodox Jewish, Amish, Mormon and a few other very conservative (Socially) groups have extremely high birth rates and growth trajectory in the USA, ESPECIALLY Mormons. They will be a major force in politics in the US in the latter half of this century with probably tens of millions of them in the American west.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by jd3189

^^^ We need to market the suburbs again then. That might bring normalcy back to the housing market. Most Americans would rather live with some space then without.

Suburban development is back to 2005 levels thanks to COVID doesnt need any marketing LOL

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Sorta on topic is the great migrations that will occur as climate change progresses. Without dikes, levees, dams, etc to protect coastal cities from being swallowed by sea level rise, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Seattle, Boston, most of LA and SF, and other coastal metros from across the country and world will start having to function like Venice or be abandoned.

One radical idea I thought about was creating submarine development. People could live underwater in certain areas. It would be pretty neat.

Im sure any day now the great flood will come! And the sin of these horrible cities will be wiped from the earth! My god grant us mercy form our sins of carbon.

*Quick donte to your local progressive super pac to avoid this Armageddon praise SCIENCE*

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Obadno

At least in the USA and Europe, Orthodox Jewish, Amish, Mormon and a few other very conservative (Socially) groups have extremely high birth rates and growth trajectory in the USA, ESPECIALLY Mormons. They will be a major force in politics in the US in the latter half of this century with probably tens of millions of them in the American west.

Mormon birth rates are also collapsing, though still higher than non-Mormons.

Since there are so many more Mormons than Amish/Hasids, they will comprise a larger number of births for quite awhile. But unlike those two groups, they live largely integrated into modernity, which is why the number of children continues to drop.

The only way to keep high birth rates in the west is to wall yourself off culturally, and ensure that women don't have access to education.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

But unlike those two groups, they live largely integrated into modernity, which is why the number of children continues to drop.

and because of that integration with modernity, i also have the sense that a far higher percentage of mormons also leave their faith, or at least half-ass it and become "cultral mormons" (like cultural catholics or cultural jews) than those other two FAR more insular groups.