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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 3:30 PM
glam glam is offline
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+1 Transit Rider

I will certainly use the CTrain once it's ready to go (5-10 min walk). I mostly bike year round, and drive/carpool 4-5 days a month and take the bus 1-2 a month (it is the slowest by far from where I live).

It will be so nice to have another alternative on the big snow days or the sub -20 days and I don't have the heart to get outside. On the worst snowy/icy days on 17 Ave, it can take ~30-40 mins in the car just to go from Simcoe Blvd to Sarcee Trail.
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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 3:39 PM
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I take the train twice a day, but only along the free-fare zone from 8th street to City Hall. There are many that do the same. It is always good to catch the trains coming from 10th street, because they are super-empty, but that will change with the West LRT.
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 6:29 PM
Cage Cage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Additionally, there still is a huge stigma among some people about riding the bus. The train they have no problem with, but the bus is just ... lame. And this goes beyond the practical traffic issues (which are huge, admittedly).

I saw this with the expansion to Crowfoot. Plenty of people who refused to take the express bus out of Royal Oak, but instantly hopped on the train. Trains have a certain cachet about them.
All figures from 2010 Customer Satisfaction Survey located here: http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/20...nal_Report.pdf

Page 2 of the full report include table 1.1 which is estimated transit users:
Code:
Survey Year	Pop >15yrs	Estimated CT Users
2010	             882,000	             378,000
2009	             877,000	             382,000
2008	             857,000	             411,000
2007	             836,000	             393,000
2006	             815,000 	             310,000
2005	             785,000	             337,000
2004	             750,000	             293,000
2003	             741,000	             267,000
2002	             728,000	             276,000
Crowfoot station was operational by July 2009 (Actual date was in June but July is tyhe first full month of operation). Observed from above the total number of transit users continued to decline in both 2009 and 2010. and there are 33,000 fewer transit users in Calgary than from the peak in 2008.

The survey's accuracy is 4.4%; 19 times out of 20. So its possible that the survey got these figures wrong. I think its highly unlikely that the survey is so off track that it CT users could increase while the survey shows a decrease. However with the recent federal election and several polsters openly questioning federal election poll data (e.g. why did the Conservatives end up with a strong majority when all the polsters predicted weak minority) it prudent to question the above numbers.

A second possibility is that NW Calgary transit use increased, but was offset by decreases in other quadrants of the city. I would also lump in the argument that transit use increased around the Crowfoot area commnunities but decreased in other areas along the NW line. However both of these scenarios are just shuffling the people mix with no net increase in transit use.

A third possibility is that overall LRT ridership increased but out of city riders replaced citizens of Calgary. The above mentioned survey only looked at transit users who were also citizen of Calgary. A decrease in Calgary users that was offset by an increase out of towners would be reflected as a decrease in ridership on this survey.

To test the accuracy, I also point to annual ridership stats
Code:
Year Revenue Passengers (Millions)
2010 94.4 
2009 94.2 
2008 95.3
http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/a...ridership.html

Still have annual ridership drecrease when both bus and transit is combined.

With the above information declared, I still standby my prediction of no net increase in Transit usage within 12 months of West LRT opening.

I further predict that West LRT will shift transit use, increases in the Westend suburbs will see a decrease in transit use for the inner city (Sunalta and 11street west stations in particular could be particularly hard hit if the trains are packed during peak periods).
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 6:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cage View Post
I further predict that West LRT will shift transit use, increases in the Westend suburbs will see a decrease in transit use for the inner city (Sunalta and 11street west stations in particular could be particularly hard hit if the trains are packed during peak periods).
The West LRT serves the smallest catchment of all the LRTs (220K for S, 170K for NW, 150K for NE and 120K for W) but will have the considerable capacity with four car trains implemented before the NW/S line. I don't think trains would be full at Sunalta initially and not for some time.


EDIT- The no net increase in ridership in Crowfoot because people are no longer taking buses to Dalhousie and transferring is vastly different from opening up an LRT in an area where there was no previous LRT service before.
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 6:41 PM
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Fine, then I am predicting at least one or more extra users and I am sticking to that! On another note, you should see how absolutely packed the bike trails were yesterday!!! I am betting that there will be a few extra people using bike trails next year to get to work.

BTW, since no new riders will be using the train (according to your prediction), the the train wont be "packed" at sunalta or 10th street. It will only be the people who previously rode the bus so no worries...right?
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2011, 9:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kw5150 View Post
BTW, since no new riders will be using the train (according to your prediction), the the train wont be "packed" at sunalta or 10th street. It will only be the people who previously rode the bus so no worries...right?
Your point about train capacity increase does raise a good question, How much of a peak hour peak direction capacity increase will the West LRT provide over the current bus service?

Answer to the above question will determine whether Sunalta station services a large number of transit users or not.

For this I have no prediction as there does not seem to readily available information that I could use to create a traffic capacity model on excel. Any idea on where this information could be calculated? At a minimum I would need route frequency and type of bus for peak hour service calculation.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 1:22 AM
Wentworth Wentworth is offline
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The West LRT will see good ridership. Aspen is growing like a cancer, and the newer areas are higher and higher density. Fast forward 5 to 10 years when the ring road is built, and you will have even more traffic dumping onto 17th and Bow trying to get downtown. The West LRT is going to eventually be a critical piece of infrastructure for the West End. If they weren't building it, I'd probably be thinking about selling and moving right now, because this area is going to be traffic hell in 5-10 years.
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 2:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cage View Post
All figures from 2010 Customer Satisfaction Survey located here: http://www.calgarytransit.com/pdf/20...nal_Report.pdf

Page 2 of the full report include table 1.1 which is estimated transit users:
Code:
Survey Year	Pop >15yrs	Estimated CT Users
2010	             882,000	             378,000
2009	             877,000	             382,000
2008	             857,000	             411,000
2007	             836,000	             393,000
2006	             815,000 	             310,000
2005	             785,000	             337,000
2004	             750,000	             293,000
2003	             741,000	             267,000
2002	             728,000	             276,000
Crowfoot station was operational by July 2009 (Actual date was in June but July is tyhe first full month of operation). Observed from above the total number of transit users continued to decline in both 2009 and 2010. and there are 33,000 fewer transit users in Calgary than from the peak in 2008.

The survey's accuracy is 4.4%; 19 times out of 20. So its possible that the survey got these figures wrong. I think its highly unlikely that the survey is so off track that it CT users could increase while the survey shows a decrease. However with the recent federal election and several polsters openly questioning federal election poll data (e.g. why did the Conservatives end up with a strong majority when all the polsters predicted weak minority) it prudent to question the above numbers.

A second possibility is that NW Calgary transit use increased, but was offset by decreases in other quadrants of the city. I would also lump in the argument that transit use increased around the Crowfoot area commnunities but decreased in other areas along the NW line. However both of these scenarios are just shuffling the people mix with no net increase in transit use.

A third possibility is that overall LRT ridership increased but out of city riders replaced citizens of Calgary. The above mentioned survey only looked at transit users who were also citizen of Calgary. A decrease in Calgary users that was offset by an increase out of towners would be reflected as a decrease in ridership on this survey.

To test the accuracy, I also point to annual ridership stats
Code:
Year Revenue Passengers (Millions)
2010 94.4 
2009 94.2 
2008 95.3
http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/a...ridership.html

Still have annual ridership drecrease when both bus and transit is combined.

With the above information declared, I still standby my prediction of no net increase in Transit usage within 12 months of West LRT opening.

I further predict that West LRT will shift transit use, increases in the Westend suburbs will see a decrease in transit use for the inner city (Sunalta and 11street west stations in particular could be particularly hard hit if the trains are packed during peak periods).
Wow.

I'll have to point-form this one to save time.

- Crowfoot opening is not the same as West LRT opening. Complete new line versus line extension. Across-the-board capacity and service increase for a catchment area (West LRT) versus what mostly amounts to travel-time reducer for a portion of a catchment area as well as extending the more attractive rail service further into that area. Not really a capacity improvement (Crowfoot).

- Crowfoot opening wasn't the only factor affecting ridership in 2009 and years since. The biggest impact was the recession. Period. Crowfoot opening was a blip compared to the affect the recession has had on ridership.

- Ridership increased in the deep SE by 10% within a year of SE BRT opening (the SE BRT year one report is on the CT website).

- Using city-wide ridership numbers to gauge the effect of Crowfoot opening (again, which affected a portion of a regional catchment area) among myriad other factors (SE BRT, 2010 budgeted service hours cuts, RECESSION) is pretty much useless and very flawed methodology.

- West LRT is projected as a low ridership line (compared to the rest of the existing LRT lines - not the current bus ridership numbers in the area). The busiest stations will be 69th Street and Westbrook, but it shouldn't ever be jam packed, and people at Sunalta and Shaganappi Point shouldn't have nearly as difficult a time boarding as people at, say, 39th Avenue or Bridgeland-Memorial. Since it will be linked with the northeast line, whose ridership should outstrip the west line's for the foreseeable future, West LRT should have capacity that will outstrip the ridership. This is mostly due to, as fusili noted, the size of the catchment area.

- That said, West LRT will certainly attract more riders than currently ride buses in the area. I think fusili's double or triple estimates are fairly optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised at a 50% increase over current bus volumes in, say, the first year of opening. If ridership stays the same or falls, it's probably because we'll have entered another recession.

-----------------

- Freeweed: "rail bias" and "bus shame" are observed phenomena and fairly well-known among transit/transportation planners, especially the former. Look them up.
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 5:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
- Freeweed: "rail bias" and "bus shame" are observed phenomena and fairly well-known among transit/transportation planners, especially the former. Look them up.
Oh, I'm well aware from 30 years of daily transit use in many cities. I just like to sometimes make observations without standing in my ivory tower. For whatever reason, some people seem unmoved by scientific data and respond better to anecdotes.

Currently visiting a bus-only city that IMHO desperately needs LRT service, and it shows. Downtown rush hour (got stuck in it while visiting the Jets store) is a nightmare compared to Calgary. The C-Train is still in my top 3 reasons why I love Calgary, unquestionably. I honestly don't even care if it just absorbs bus ridership - which isn't the case, but let's pretend - it still kicks all sorts of ass for a whole host of reasons.
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 4:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Oh, I'm well aware from 30 years of daily transit use in many cities. I just like to sometimes make observations without standing in my ivory tower. For whatever reason, some people seem unmoved by scientific data and respond better to anecdotes.

Currently visiting a bus-only city that IMHO desperately needs LRT service, and it shows. Downtown rush hour (got stuck in it while visiting the Jets store) is a nightmare compared to Calgary. The C-Train is still in my top 3 reasons why I love Calgary, unquestionably. I honestly don't even care if it just absorbs bus ridership - which isn't the case, but let's pretend - it still kicks all sorts of ass for a whole host of reasons.
well said! It is especially good for games.
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Wow.

I'll have to point-form this one to save time.

- Crowfoot opening is not the same as West LRT opening. Complete new line versus line extension. Across-the-board capacity and service increase for a catchment area (West LRT) versus what mostly amounts to travel-time reducer for a portion of a catchment area as well as extending the more attractive rail service further into that area. Not really a capacity improvement (Crowfoot).

- Crowfoot opening wasn't the only factor affecting ridership in 2009 and years since. The biggest impact was the recession. Period. Crowfoot opening was a blip compared to the affect the recession has had on ridership.

- Ridership increased in the deep SE by 10% within a year of SE BRT opening (the SE BRT year one report is on the CT website).

- Using city-wide ridership numbers to gauge the effect of Crowfoot opening (again, which affected a portion of a regional catchment area) among myriad other factors (SE BRT, 2010 budgeted service hours cuts, RECESSION) is pretty much useless and very flawed methodology.

- West LRT is projected as a low ridership line (compared to the rest of the existing LRT lines - not the current bus ridership numbers in the area). The busiest stations will be 69th Street and Westbrook, but it shouldn't ever be jam packed, and people at Sunalta and Shaganappi Point shouldn't have nearly as difficult a time boarding as people at, say, 39th Avenue or Bridgeland-Memorial. Since it will be linked with the northeast line, whose ridership should outstrip the west line's for the foreseeable future, West LRT should have capacity that will outstrip the ridership. This is mostly due to, as fusili noted, the size of the catchment area.

- That said, West LRT will certainly attract more riders than currently ride buses in the area. I think fusili's double or triple estimates are fairly optimistic, but I wouldn't be surprised at a 50% increase over current bus volumes in, say, the first year of opening. If ridership stays the same or falls, it's probably because we'll have entered another recession.

-----------------

- Freeweed: "rail bias" and "bus shame" are observed phenomena and fairly well-known among transit/transportation planners, especially the former. Look them up.
Thanks for the factoids. We can always rely on you. Thanks for posting!
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2011, 5:53 PM
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I would bet there is a strong correlation between occupied downtown office space and transit ridership. The late 2008-2009 recession was likely the main reason ridership declined.
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2011, 6:57 PM
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What effect did having to pay for park and ride have on transit? I heard it was somewhat significant...
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  #54  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2011, 7:39 PM
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The latest Project Calgary article. This time it's on the Kensington area and what makes it one of the City's best hoods.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Pr...483/story.html
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