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  #2961  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 11:22 AM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Extending the development deadline for Lot 2, located behind the North Shore Place I and II office and retail complex, which includes Pittsburgh Post-Gazette offices, will give the Lot 4 project time to take root and germinate, Mr. Ford said.

If Continental does not do anything with Lot 2 by the end of 2024, the stadium authority will have the right to seek other developers to craft a project for the site.

Without the new deal, Continental would have had until May 2021 to start work on that parcel.

Mr. Peduto has criticized the Steelers for dragging their feet in developing Lot 2. The team gets part of the parking revenue from the lot on football game days, as do the Pirates when they play at home.
Criticism followed by caving anyway, as always.
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  #2962  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 12:52 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Wasn't Froggy's given the green light for demolition, or is there still a fight over this? Personally, I'd hate to see this face the wrecking ball. If it must, I just hope its replacement is something worthy...
Froggy's has not been greenlit yet, IIRC, only the two buildings around the corner on Boulevard of the Allies (which have already been demolished).

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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Kerr Elementary is brand new this year. Newest, most technology advanced school in the entire district. This should help change the school performance numbers.
School performance is almost entirely attributable to the socio-economic status of the student body, meaning Kerr will always lag a little bit until Sharpsburg doesn't have many poor kids left.

I expect that for the most part as it gentrifies the number of school-age kids in Sharpsburg are just going to plummet (similar to Lawrenceville) but there will absolutely be less of impetus for yuppie types to move away when their kids hit kindergarten age.

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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
One of the big gentrification issues in Sharpsburg is that something like 60-70% of residents are renters. That doesn't bode too well for keeping a more economically/racially diverse population that it currently has. There are some homeownership initiatives underway there, as well as some land trust activity.
To be fair, a large proportion of the renter population in Sharpsburg (and Millvale, and Etna) are people who lived in Lawrenceville ten years ago and got gentrified out, so they don't have particularly deep roots.

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Originally Posted by highlander206 View Post
Very disappointing about that building in Oakland too. Especially considering all of the other midrise stuff that has been built in basically that same area over the last five years...
Bruce Kraus is garbage on NIMBY issues and will side with them 100% of the time, but OPDC's position on this is both confusing and saddening, because they are typically not an anti-development group.

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Originally Posted by BenM View Post
I know it's happened in other cities, but the deals that the city made with the Pirates, Steelers and Penguins should be made into a case study of why sports franchises shouldn't receive development rights. (In addition to the subsidies they received for the stadium.)
I think the city would actually have been a lot better off if we didn't have all three sports venues right smack dab in the urban core. If you look at major cities it's very common that sports stadiums (particularly football stadiums, due to size, and more modern baseball fields) are either out in the suburbs or on the fringes of the city - and basically never located in or right next to "downtown."
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  #2963  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 2:45 PM
Bricktrimble Bricktrimble is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think the city would actually have been a lot better off if we didn't have all three sports venues right smack dab in the urban core. If you look at major cities it's very common that sports stadiums (particularly football stadiums, due to size, and more modern baseball fields) are either out in the suburbs or on the fringes of the city - and basically never located in or right next to "downtown."
Be careful what you say. I can see the Pirates or Steelers in 10 years ask to move the stadium because there isn't even room for tailgating for their fans. Oh boo hoo, we need a new stadium (taxpayer funded of course).
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  #2964  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 4:14 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Bricktrimble View Post
Be careful what you say. I can see the Pirates or Steelers in 10 years ask to move the stadium because there isn't even room for tailgating for their fans. Oh boo hoo, we need a new stadium (taxpayer funded of course).
Seriously though, look at where the football stadiums are located in the major urban cities:

New York - Giants and Jets play in East Rutherford, NJ
Boston - Patriots are all the way out in Foxborough, MA
Philly - Eagles play in far southern Philly, near nothing in particular
DC - Redskins play in Landover, MD
Chicago - Soldier Field isn't all that close to Downtown, being on the near South Side - though it's a bit closer than the other examples
Los Angeles - Rams play in Exposition Park - kinda far from Downtown
San Francisco - 49ers play in Santa Clara

There are also numerous smaller cities - New Orleans, Buffalo, arguably Seattle - which put their football stadiums further from town.

I'd say that PNC Park has a great location and can stay, but ideally Heinz Field would have been rebuilt somewhere like Ridgemont - allowing for easy access off of the highway, but the city to still take advantage of the revenue.
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  #2965  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 5:19 PM
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pj3000 pj3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Seriously though, look at where the football stadiums are located in the major urban cities:

New York - Giants and Jets play in East Rutherford, NJ
Boston - Patriots are all the way out in Foxborough, MA
Philly - Eagles play in far southern Philly, near nothing in particular
DC - Redskins play in Landover, MD
Chicago - Soldier Field isn't all that close to Downtown, being on the near South Side - though it's a bit closer than the other examples
Los Angeles - Rams play in Exposition Park - kinda far from Downtown
San Francisco - 49ers play in Santa Clara

There are also numerous smaller cities - New Orleans, Buffalo, arguably Seattle - which put their football stadiums further from town.

I'd say that PNC Park has a great location and can stay, but ideally Heinz Field would have been rebuilt somewhere like Ridgemont - allowing for easy access off of the highway, but the city to still take advantage of the revenue.
I guess, obviously, it has much to do with real estate value in the core. It would just be a major waste of space to put a massive football/sports complex (that would be empty most of the time) where office buildings could be. It sometimes seems whenever new/newer stadia are located “downtown”, the city’s, or at least its downtown area, economy isn’t/wasn’t strong.

Superdome in NO is in the CBD though.

Yeah, I’d like to see Pittsburgh stadiums elsewhere in the city limits. Ridgemont might cause a Greentree hill traffic nightmare though... I can’t imagine the awfulness on the parkway if that were the situation.
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  #2966  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 7:03 PM
PITairport PITairport is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
It's been awhile since I looked, but the net losses due to domestic migration are not appreciably different for Allegheny County and the core counties of most other large northern metropolitan areas. I know for a fact that we're losing a smaller percentage of our population due to domestic migration than Cook County, Illinois for example.

The "Pittsburgh disease" is likely to be seen in an increasing number of metropolitan areas outside of the Sun Belt honestly. The national birth rate is plummeting to an all time low and we have an administration doing everything it can to limit immigration. These are basically the two population streams which allowed for legacy cities like NYC, Chicago, and Los Angeles to maintain growing populations for decades.
I don't disagree with your first point but it focuses on the respective core counties, not the entire MSA which make up the statistics in reply #2910. So looking at some or our peer cities and how their MSA's grow significantly it still appears to me that the birth's vs. deaths issue in Pittsburgh is only one (small) piece of the puzzle. Why are some of these other peer MSA's growing like crazy? I'm left to believe it's the same reasons we've heard for decades now. Cost of doing business in PA, legacy labor costs, poor infrastructure, State spending disproportionally directed to SE PA, etc. Lack of manufacturing.

As to your second point, it is actually incoming net foreign immigration that has lowered the overall net outmigration from the region so I don't think it is anything to do with the Administration's immigration policy. Not while all these other regions are growing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Seriously though, look at where the football stadiums are located in the major urban cities:

New York - Giants and Jets play in East Rutherford, NJ
Boston - Patriots are all the way out in Foxborough, MA
Philly - Eagles play in far southern Philly, near nothing in particular
DC - Redskins play in Landover, MD
Chicago - Soldier Field isn't all that close to Downtown, being on the near South Side - though it's a bit closer than the other examples
Los Angeles - Rams play in Exposition Park - kinda far from Downtown
San Francisco - 49ers play in Santa Clara

There are also numerous smaller cities - New Orleans, Buffalo, arguably Seattle - which put their football stadiums further from town.

I'd say that PNC Park has a great location and can stay, but ideally Heinz Field would have been rebuilt somewhere like Ridgemont - allowing for easy access off of the highway, but the city to still take advantage of the revenue.
If Heinz Field is in the urban core then of the cities you listed so are the football stadiums in Chicago, New Orleans, and Seattle. Look at the newish stadiums built, say over the last 25 years or so. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Denver, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Nashville, Las Vegas, etc. All of these, while not smack dab in the middle of downtown, are certainly in the urban core. I have not looked at basketball/hockey arenas yet but I'd wager that the ratio of arenas in the urban core is even higher than NFL stadiums.
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  #2967  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 10:38 PM
BenM BenM is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Seriously though, look at where the football stadiums are located in the major urban cities:

New York - Giants and Jets play in East Rutherford, NJ
Boston - Patriots are all the way out in Foxborough, MA
Philly - Eagles play in far southern Philly, near nothing in particular
DC - Redskins play in Landover, MD
Chicago - Soldier Field isn't all that close to Downtown, being on the near South Side - though it's a bit closer than the other examples
Los Angeles - Rams play in Exposition Park - kinda far from Downtown
San Francisco - 49ers play in Santa Clara

There are also numerous smaller cities - New Orleans, Buffalo, arguably Seattle - which put their football stadiums further from town.

I'd say that PNC Park has a great location and can stay, but ideally Heinz Field would have been rebuilt somewhere like Ridgemont - allowing for easy access off of the highway, but the city to still take advantage of the revenue.
It's not just football stadiums. Baseball, NHL and NBA team owners have tried to negotiate for development rights along with publicly subsidizes on new stadiums.

The Los Angeles Angels, Oakland A's, Calgary Flames and NY Islanders are either in the process of or have negotiated deals for public subsidies and development rights in the in the last year alone. (And there may be more I don't know about.)

Hey, if you think the city/county/state will give you land, why not ask for it?

(Info via the stadium development blog Field of Schemes.)
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  #2968  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 1:26 AM
highlander206 highlander206 is offline
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I'm fine with baseball stadiums and hockey areas being right in the city (they are in most places, especially on the hockey side) as they are used dozens of times throughout the year instead of less than a dozen for most NFL stadiums, so they can bring their share of real bar and restaurant demand with them. Plus, those venues bring in much less people than football games, so the traffic impacts aren't as large and long lasting usually. Hockey also doesn't have the tailgating culture with it, so the whining of losing surface spaces to garage spots shouldn't be as big of an issue.
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  #2969  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 9:46 AM
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The stadiums are good where they're at and both have great city views while inside the stadium. Heinz Field is not hard to access and it's right next to the T and people access it from the river on game days. Levi's stadium in Santa Clara is a nightmare to get to and back. Levi's Stadium have horrible yelp ratings because of its location alone. I just came back from New Orleans and the Mercedes Superdome is very close to it's downtown. Can someone find and post renderings to the new eight story building next to PNC Park please.
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  #2970  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 12:20 PM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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Heinz Field being where it is and Steelers' tailgate culture create a huge barrier to redevelopment in Allegheny West and Manchester. As long as that stadium is there and the team's drunken fans are willing to pay $50 to park and party in a gravel parking lot, no one is going to build housing or offices on all those surface lots. There are many lots on Ridge, Western, Brighton and Allegheny that would be attractive sites for redevelopment but as long as the owners can do nothing and collect parking fees from fans, nothing new will get built.

I would be perfectly happy if the Steelers decide to pick up and move out to Robinson or Moon or somewhere with lots of surface parking. That way the northside development won't be held hostage by a bunch of suburbanites who insist that they can only enjoy football if they can drink and barbecue on surface lots.
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  #2971  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 4:20 PM
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Standing around drinking in a beastly hot/frigidly cold parking lot, surrounded by cars and trashy people decked out in ridiculous outfits is about the least appealing activity I can think of participating in.
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  #2972  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 4:55 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Yeah, I’d like to see Pittsburgh stadiums elsewhere in the city limits. Ridgemont might cause a Greentree hill traffic nightmare though... I can’t imagine the awfulness on the parkway if that were the situation.
There are a limited number of areas with relatively flat land near highway exists within city limits outside of Greater Downtown. The Parkway Center Mall site was the only one which immediately sprang to mind, and would have the added benefit that that whole area was under-utilized even 20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by PITairport View Post
I don't disagree with your first point but it focuses on the respective core counties, not the entire MSA which make up the statistics in reply #2910. So looking at some or our peer cities and how their MSA's grow significantly it still appears to me that the birth's vs. deaths issue in Pittsburgh is only one (small) piece of the puzzle. Why are some of these other peer MSA's growing like crazy? I'm left to believe it's the same reasons we've heard for decades now. Cost of doing business in PA, legacy labor costs, poor infrastructure, State spending disproportionally directed to SE PA, etc. Lack of manufacturing.
Here is a somewhat dated map showing net domestic migration in 2016-2017:



Note that net domestic migration is negative basically everywhere in the Northeast/Midwest. The NYC metro, Chicago Metro, Philly Metro, Boston Metro, etc are all losing more domestic migrants than they gain.

There are a handful of anomalous metropolitan areas in the Midwest - Columbus, Indianapolis, and Minneapolis - that are still attracting domestic migrants strongly.

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Originally Posted by PITairport View Post
As to your second point, it is actually incoming net foreign immigration that has lowered the overall net outmigration from the region so I don't think it is anything to do with the Administration's immigration policy. Not while all these other regions are growing.
Yes, it's true that international immigration has somewhat blunted our population decline. But if we had levels of immigration similar (proportionate to our metro population) to NYC, Chicago, or even Philly we wouldn't have been declining in population over the last few decades.

Now that the policies which allowed for new international migrants to move to those established metropolitan areas are being changed, there really aren't the new working-age bodies needed to replace the constant outward trickle of people to the Sun Belt in the Northeast Corridor or Chicago. So their demographic profile is starting to look a little more Pittsburgh.
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  #2973  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2019, 6:39 PM
PITairport PITairport is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Note that net domestic migration is negative basically everywhere in the Northeast/Midwest. The NYC metro, Chicago Metro, Philly Metro, Boston Metro, etc are all losing more domestic migrants than they gain.

There are a handful of anomalous metropolitan areas in the Midwest - Columbus, Indianapolis, and Minneapolis - that are still attracting domestic migrants strongly.
I also see more blue than red in and around St. Louis, Kansas City, Louisville, and Cincinnati. I think it is these cities, in addition to the ones you mentioned that more align with Pittsburgh as opposed to Philly, Boston, and NYC.


Quote:
Yes, it's true that international immigration has somewhat blunted our population decline. But if we had levels of immigration similar (proportionate to our metro population) to NYC, Chicago, or even Philly we wouldn't have been declining in population over the last few decades.
Yep, and I think the point is we never had that kind of proportional immigration over the past couple decades. It brings this topic full circle - why did we not have that type of immigration during that period? Lack of jobs, opportunity, small business start up climate, etc?
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  #2974  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2019, 6:53 PM
mikebarbaro mikebarbaro is offline
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Originally Posted by Wally G View Post
The stadiums are good where they're at and both have great city views while inside the stadium. Heinz Field is not hard to access and it's right next to the T and people access it from the river on game days. Levi's stadium in Santa Clara is a nightmare to get to and back. Levi's Stadium have horrible yelp ratings because of its location alone. I just came back from New Orleans and the Mercedes Superdome is very close to it's downtown. Can someone find and post renderings to the new eight story building next to PNC Park please.
Here is both the office/residential/entertainment renderings going in by home plate and the other still proposed office towers on the other side of PNC Park to be built next to the Spring Hill Suites...





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  #2975  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2019, 8:45 PM
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I would really like to see that Hyatt Place abomination demolished.
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  #2976  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2019, 9:07 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I would really like to see that Hyatt Place abomination demolished.
It is a real garbage, suburban-style layout compared to the nearby Residence Inn, Spring Hill Suites, and Holiday Inn Express, all of which are at least built like structures you'd expect to see in a city.
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  #2977  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 1:44 AM
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It is a real garbage, suburban-style layout compared to the nearby Residence Inn, Spring Hill Suites, and Holiday Inn Express, all of which are at least built like structures you'd expect to see in a city.
Exactly. And I think it might have even been built after those other hotels, which as you said, have much better urban design. I don’t get why they regressed... but then again, It’s not like the north shore makes that much sense.

Also, I guess I’m kinda surprised with the design of the proposed condo building there. I would think it would be more desirable if it were taller, so as to offer much better views of the river and downtown. At the height proposed, it seems views will likely be blocked by the office buildings in front of it.
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  #2978  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2019, 7:15 AM
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Hi, from a small town north of Pittsburgh but currently live in LA. Are there any towers planned for Downtown? Curious.
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  #2979  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2019, 3:19 PM
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I don't think we discussed here the chatter about a new small urban-format Target possibly ending up at the Kaufmann's site downtown. This will be a big effin deal if it happens, because the Target is supposed to be basically formatted as grocery-heavy, which makes Downtown living much less of a hassle.

Also, in completely expected yet disappointing news, Point Park University is going to sell the land that Pittsburgh Playhouse formerly sat on to an affiliate of Magee Hospital. This was always the most likely outcome because Magee is not only across the street, but also owns the midrise office building and parking garage directly adjacent to the site. Hopefully they do something useful with the site reasonably soon and don't just keep it a surface parking lot for a decade.

Also, there is a new ZBA up for 11/21.

The big news is that the ZBA approvals for the new Garden Block project have arrived. They are asking for a five-story, 47-unit new construction building, along with rehab of the surviving two buildings on Federal which will result in nine residential units (so 56 in all) in addition, "approximately five" commercial tenant spaces. The only variance they're asking for is the parking to be off site in leased spaces at 1215 Federal Street (literally on the next block) so I think this will be more NIMBY-proof than earlier designs.

Not much else really of interest. A new convenience store in Highland Park, and a new restaurant space in Central Lawrenceville (the same space the food hall was supposed to go into I believe).
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  #2980  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2019, 5:08 PM
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What do we think the chances are of these (as rendered) getting built in the next decade?

Considering the current lack of demand for new office space in downtown proper and immediately adjacent to downtown in the Lower Hill, is it realistic to expect the demand exists for this sizable development across the river?

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