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  #2901  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:43 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I do wonder in another decade or so - when there might be a near continuous band of new development running from the Baum-Centre corridor all the way to Fifth Avenue - if the area will start having its own distinct neighborhood identity.
My two cents is what I would call Greater East Liberty is already sorta a thing, even if no one else calls it that.

It goes all the way back to when East Liberty was a major stop on the Pennsylvania RR main line, long before Oakland or Squirrel Hill was much of a thing. East Liberty became sort of the capital city of that historic East End, and the local major roads and street grids all sort of radiated out from East Liberty. Roughly speaking, this historic Greater East Liberty covered most of present day Garfield, Morningside, Highland Park, Larimer, Homewood, Point Breeze, Shadyside, and Friendship/Bloomfield.

Eventually Oakland and Squirrel Hill did become a new center of gravity (more below). But even up through the 1950s, this sort of Greater East Liberty continued, now also as an important node in the streetcar network as well.

Then the rise of the automobile and white flight and such famously caused local urban planners to panic, destroy the urban fabric of East Liberty, and spiral it off into decades of disinvestment. And in that period, the surrounding neighborhoods, to the extent they could at least, disassociated with East Liberty.

But now we are basically rebuilding what used to be there, including BRT replacing streetcars. And my sense is more and more people in surrounding neighborhoods, particularly the younger ones, are in fact seeing East Liberty as a valued place to shop, go out, and possibly work.

So I do think in substance, that historic Greater East Liberty is coming back quickly. And it will never be entirely the same as it was in the 19th Century, since with Oakland/Squirrel Hill and the universities providing a new center of gravity, the East End will always be multi-nodal. But in terms of the immediate surrounding neighborhoods, I do think it is becoming their "capital city" once again, at least with some modifications (like Shadyside obviously having "split" identity now).
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  #2902  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I think it would be suited for multiple buildings, and I could definitely envision 8-9 story residential buildings at the back (along the busway/tracks) of the site. And maybe a larger office building along Penn, if an anchor tenant showed interest (like Philips in Bk Sq). I wouldn't rule out a "more urban" shopping plaza either, with large retailers like Staples and Tuesday Morning which are already there, but in a better-designed, more contemporary format.
And it is definitely big enough it could (and probably should) get some sort of new "main street" in the middle. In my view, ideally it would basically connect from Penn somewhere around Shady to over to E Liberty Blvd somewhere between Penn and the Busway, and could even be an extension of Shady.

Something like that would created lots more "fronts" for new buildings.
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  #2903  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
My two cents is what I would call Greater East Liberty is already sorta a thing, even if no one else calls it that.

It goes all the way back to when East Liberty was a major stop on the Pennsylvania RR main line, long before Oakland or Squirrel Hill was much of a thing. East Liberty became sort of the capital city of that historic East End, and the local major roads and street grids all sort of radiated out from East Liberty. Roughly speaking, this historic Greater East Liberty covered most of present day Garfield, Morningside, Highland Park, Larimer, Homewood, Point Breeze, Shadyside, and Friendship/Bloomfield.

Eventually Oakland and Squirrel Hill did become a new center of gravity (more below). But even up through the 1950s, this sort of Greater East Liberty continued, now also as an important node in the streetcar network as well.

Then the rise of the automobile and white flight and such famously caused local urban planners to panic, destroy the urban fabric of East Liberty, and spiral it off into decades of disinvestment. And in that period, the surrounding neighborhoods, to the extent they could at least, disassociated with East Liberty.

But now we are basically rebuilding what used to be there, including BRT replacing streetcars. And my sense is more and more people in surrounding neighborhoods, particularly the younger ones, are in fact seeing East Liberty as a valued place to shop, go out, and possibly work.

So I do think in substance, that historic Greater East Liberty is coming back quickly. And it will never be entirely the same as it was in the 19th Century, since with Oakland/Squirrel Hill and the universities providing a new center of gravity, the East End will always be multi-nodal. But in terms of the immediate surrounding neighborhoods, I do think it is becoming their "capital city" once again, at least with some modifications (like Shadyside obviously having "split" identity now).
Yeah, the location/historic function of East Liberty as a transportation/commercial hub pretty much guaranteed that one day it would return to prominence for those uses.

That's the number one reason that any protest over "gentrification" of the neighborhood holds no water with me. Re-utilization of the area for what it was historically used and designed for was going to happen, period. It's just so unrealistic for anyone to think that the area is going to somehow remain majority low-income housing and the cheap stores to serve that population. It's a major crossroads... and at major crossroads, the rents aren't cheap. As soon as the city's/region's fortunes changed for the better, East Liberty was going to change for the better.

Because it naturally had to happen, given its location within the greater East End. It's at the center of a large, flat area -- the ONLY such location in Pittsburgh.

Last edited by pj3000; Oct 24, 2019 at 5:05 PM.
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  #2904  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
And it is definitely big enough it could (and probably should) get some sort of new "main street" in the middle. In my view, ideally it would basically connect from Penn somewhere around Shady to over to E Liberty Blvd somewhere between Penn and the Busway, and could even be an extension of Shady.

Something like that would created lots more "fronts" for new buildings.
Yes, that's exactly what I was picturing when I look at the tract on Google maps
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  #2905  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 5:55 PM
Don't Be That Guy Don't Be That Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
And it is definitely big enough it could (and probably should) get some sort of new "main street" in the middle. In my view, ideally it would basically connect from Penn somewhere around Shady to over to E Liberty Blvd somewhere between Penn and the Busway, and could even be an extension of Shady.

Something like that would created lots more "fronts" for new buildings.
I'd usually rail against building new expensive road infrastructure, but the heavy congestion on that section of Penn warrants a bridge connecting the current northern terminus of Shady across the busway to Broad St.
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  #2906  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 6:51 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy View Post
I'd usually rail against building new expensive road infrastructure, but the heavy congestion on that section of Penn warrants a bridge connecting the current northern terminus of Shady across the busway to Broad St.
I think that would also be a valuable pedestrian/bike connection, particularly with all the development happening in Larimer and the new extension of Station Street to Broad. So I quite agree.

Edit:

Recent Streetview from June, on Broad Street looking up the new Station Street. Looks almost like a rendering but is an actual photo:



180 degrees around in same spot, looking across the Busway to the possible development site we are discussing:



Some sort of connection from A to B does seem worth an investment. And I wonder if we could get state and federal money for that.

Last edited by BrianTH; Oct 24, 2019 at 7:44 PM.
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  #2907  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 7:35 PM
wpipkins2 wpipkins2 is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
My two cents is what I would call Greater East Liberty is already sorta a thing, even if no one else calls it that.

It goes all the way back to when East Liberty was a major stop on the Pennsylvania RR main line, long before Oakland or Squirrel Hill was much of a thing. East Liberty became sort of the capital city of that historic East End, and the local major roads and street grids all sort of radiated out from East Liberty. Roughly speaking, this historic Greater East Liberty covered most of present day Garfield, Morningside, Highland Park, Larimer, Homewood, Point Breeze, Shadyside, and Friendship/Bloomfield.

Eventually Oakland and Squirrel Hill did become a new center of gravity (more below). But even up through the 1950s, this sort of Greater East Liberty continued, now also as an important node in the streetcar network as well.

Then the rise of the automobile and white flight and such famously caused local urban planners to panic, destroy the urban fabric of East Liberty, and spiral it off into decades of disinvestment. And in that period, the surrounding neighborhoods, to the extent they could at least, disassociated with East Liberty.

But now we are basically rebuilding what used to be there, including BRT replacing streetcars. And my sense is more and more people in surrounding neighborhoods, particularly the younger ones, are in fact seeing East Liberty as a valued place to shop, go out, and possibly work.

So I do think in substance, that historic Greater East Liberty is coming back quickly. And it will never be entirely the same as it was in the 19th Century, since with Oakland/Squirrel Hill and the universities providing a new center of gravity, the East End will always be multi-nodal. But in terms of the immediate surrounding neighborhoods, I do think it is becoming their "capital city" once again, at least with some modifications (like Shadyside obviously having "split" identity now).
I agree. My neighbor was literally born and raised in Larimer. To this day he refers to Lincoln, Lemington, Belmar and Larimer as East Liberty.
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  #2908  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
My two cents is what I would call Greater East Liberty is already sorta a thing, even if no one else calls it that.

It goes all the way back to when East Liberty was a major stop on the Pennsylvania RR main line, long before Oakland or Squirrel Hill was much of a thing. East Liberty became sort of the capital city of that historic East End, and the local major roads and street grids all sort of radiated out from East Liberty. Roughly speaking, this historic Greater East Liberty covered most of present day Garfield, Morningside, Highland Park, Larimer, Homewood, Point Breeze, Shadyside, and Friendship/Bloomfield.

Eventually Oakland and Squirrel Hill did become a new center of gravity (more below). But even up through the 1950s, this sort of Greater East Liberty continued, now also as an important node in the streetcar network as well.

Then the rise of the automobile and white flight and such famously caused local urban planners to panic, destroy the urban fabric of East Liberty, and spiral it off into decades of disinvestment. And in that period, the surrounding neighborhoods, to the extent they could at least, disassociated with East Liberty.

But now we are basically rebuilding what used to be there, including BRT replacing streetcars. And my sense is more and more people in surrounding neighborhoods, particularly the younger ones, are in fact seeing East Liberty as a valued place to shop, go out, and possibly work.

So I do think in substance, that historic Greater East Liberty is coming back quickly. And it will never be entirely the same as it was in the 19th Century, since with Oakland/Squirrel Hill and the universities providing a new center of gravity, the East End will always be multi-nodal. But in terms of the immediate surrounding neighborhoods, I do think it is becoming their "capital city" once again, at least with some modifications (like Shadyside obviously having "split" identity now).
East Liberty's history is amazing. Even with all the new development, it's still a shell of its former self. As you mentioned, it was a massive retail district for the entire city, second only to Downtown. Its population was close to 50,000, vs about 7,000 today (give or take). It was densely developed, walkable, had train service to Downtown and points east, a web of local streetcars, basically, what urban planners strive to recreate. The largest movie theatre sat 3,200. Singers, jazz musicians, movie stars came from East Liberty. It's hard to fathom what once was.
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  #2909  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnland View Post
East Liberty's history is amazing. Even with all the new development, it's still a shell of its former self. As you mentioned, it was a massive retail district for the entire city, second only to Downtown. Its population was close to 50,000, vs about 7,000 today (give or take). It was densely developed, walkable, had train service to Downtown and points east, a web of local streetcars, basically, what urban planners strive to recreate. The largest movie theatre sat 3,200. Singers, jazz musicians, movie stars came from East Liberty. It's hard to fathom what once was.
That population figure of roughly 50k was for an area that is much larger than what East Liberty’s boundaries are today. Much of the east end was considered to be “East Liberty”, so that population figure back in the day included the land covered by East liberty, Garfield, Highland Park, Shadyside, Upper Lawrenceville, Friendship, Larimer, Homewood, Bloomfield, etc.
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  #2910  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 2:13 AM
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Damn... disappointing.

US Metro Areas(MSA) by 5-year job growth
From bls.gov

Metro Areas(MSA) with a Population of 1 Million+ by Non-Farm Job Growth from September 2014 through September 2019
+716,800 New York +7.78%
+527,600 Los Angeles +9.25%
+508,700 Dallas +15.38%
+331,400 San Francisco +15.20%
+331,300 Atlanta +13.14%
+318,300 Phoenix +17.15%
+299,700 Miami +12.33%
+275,100 Chicago +6.05%
+273,900 Seattle +14.79%
+244,400 Riverside +18.89%

+230,000 Orlando +20.65%
+227,400 Washington DC +7.30%
+214,300 Houston +7.24%
+199,500 Boston +7.63%
+193,800 Philadelphia +6.95%
+169,600 Tampa +13.99%
+169,100 Denver +12.40%
+168,100 San Diego +12.48%
+167,200 Charlotte +15.59%
+165,100 Austin +17.79%

+147,200 Las Vegas +16.48%
+145,100 San Jose +14.30%
+140,100 Portland +12.92%
+133,900 Nashville +15.01%
+133,500 Detroit +7.01%
+127,300 Sacramento +14.27%
+126,800 San Antonio +13.20%
+109,900 Minneapolis +5.76%
+98,800 Salt Lake City +15.02%
+98,400 Jacksonville +15.75%

+94,500 Columbus +9.21%
+92,500 Kansas City +9.00%
+90,700 Cincinnati +8.61%
+86,500 Raleigh +15.31%
+88,200 St Louis +6.63%
+87,500 Indianapolis +8.72%
+83,200 Baltimore +6.15%
+50,700 Fresno +16.02%
+49,200 Grand Rapids +9.50%
+45,100 Cleveland +4.33%

+42,900 Richmond +7.75%
+41,000 Memphis +6.63%
+34,300 Oklahoma City +5.47%
+33,700 Virginia Beach +4.42%
+30,000 Birmingham +5.78%
+29,500 Milwaukee +3.46%
+28,400 Providence +4.93%
+27,000 Pittsburgh +2.31%
+25,600 Tucson +6.99%
+22,500 New Orleans +3.98%

+21,300 Rochester +4.06%
+17,100 Buffalo +3.08%
+14,900 Tulsa +3.37%
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  #2911  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 2:29 PM
mikebarbaro mikebarbaro is offline
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Damn... disappointing.

US Metro Areas(MSA) by 5-year job growth
From bls.gov

Metro Areas(MSA) with a Population of 1 Million+ by Non-Farm Job Growth from September 2014 through September 2019
+716,800 New York +7.78%
+527,600 Los Angeles +9.25%
+508,700 Dallas +15.38%
+331,400 San Francisco +15.20%
+331,300 Atlanta +13.14%
+318,300 Phoenix +17.15%
+299,700 Miami +12.33%
+275,100 Chicago +6.05%
+273,900 Seattle +14.79%
+244,400 Riverside +18.89%

+230,000 Orlando +20.65%
+227,400 Washington DC +7.30%
+214,300 Houston +7.24%
+199,500 Boston +7.63%
+193,800 Philadelphia +6.95%
+169,600 Tampa +13.99%
+169,100 Denver +12.40%
+168,100 San Diego +12.48%
+167,200 Charlotte +15.59%
+165,100 Austin +17.79%

+147,200 Las Vegas +16.48%
+145,100 San Jose +14.30%
+140,100 Portland +12.92%
+133,900 Nashville +15.01%
+133,500 Detroit +7.01%
+127,300 Sacramento +14.27%
+126,800 San Antonio +13.20%
+109,900 Minneapolis +5.76%
+98,800 Salt Lake City +15.02%
+98,400 Jacksonville +15.75%

+94,500 Columbus +9.21%
+92,500 Kansas City +9.00%
+90,700 Cincinnati +8.61%
+86,500 Raleigh +15.31%
+88,200 St Louis +6.63%
+87,500 Indianapolis +8.72%
+83,200 Baltimore +6.15%
+50,700 Fresno +16.02%
+49,200 Grand Rapids +9.50%
+45,100 Cleveland +4.33%

+42,900 Richmond +7.75%
+41,000 Memphis +6.63%
+34,300 Oklahoma City +5.47%
+33,700 Virginia Beach +4.42%
+30,000 Birmingham +5.78%
+29,500 Milwaukee +3.46%
+28,400 Providence +4.93%
+27,000 Pittsburgh +2.31%
+25,600 Tucson +6.99%
+22,500 New Orleans +3.98%

+21,300 Rochester +4.06%
+17,100 Buffalo +3.08%
+14,900 Tulsa +3.37%
I just don't understand. Every time I see statistics like this it just doesn't make sense to me when you see all of the positive business and hiring news around here constantly. Maybe I don't understand the statistics properly.
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  #2912  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:08 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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I just don't understand. Every time I see statistics like this it just doesn't make sense to me when you see all of the positive business and hiring news around here constantly. Maybe I don't understand the statistics properly.
Two things to consider here:

1. Pittsburgh as a metropolitan area is still experiencing natural population decline. Hence that job growth is actually more robust than it might seem compared to areas adding jobs and residents at a roughly equal pace.

2. We're honestly a bit overextended into the rural hinterlands as MSAs go, and it's pretty clear that there's not much economic dynamism happening in the region outside of the city itself. I mean, even most of the areas which are healthy in the suburbs/exurbs in terms of population growth aren't really seeing any job growth at all. Indeed, a fair amount of the recent job growth in the city - companies like Bombardier and Phillips, for example - are due to relocations from suburban office parks.
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  #2913  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:17 PM
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^ Yeah, but it comes down to the fact that the Pittsburgh metro area just is not adding many jobs in comparison to other places. And due to that, the population can't increase enough to outpace the death rate.
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  #2914  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:21 PM
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It seems like the only people who were a hard no was the NIMBY group led by Village of Shadyside residents. The Village of Shadyside - as in the condo association - actually hired a lawyer to represent them at the hearing.
This honestly makes zero sense to me... Can anyone think of a better place to live than a secluded townhome inside that 'village', where just outside is all vibrant, walkable, dense, brand new developments, with hip new places?

You'd think they'd cheer it on, they get all the benefits without any effort, or am I wrong on this?
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  #2915  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:23 PM
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This honestly makes zero sense to me... Can anyone think of a better place to live than a secluded townhome inside that 'village', where just outside is all vibrant, walkable, dense, brand new developments, with hip new places?

You'd think they'd cheer it on, they get all the benefits without any effort, or am I wrong on this?
I heard one resident say that the Sun will be blocked out and that the Villagers will be forced to live in darkness.

I'm not kidding.
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  #2916  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:29 PM
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NIMBYism is quite often totally irrational. There was an article in the NY Times the other year about a mini-apartment building in Oakland, CA (legal four-unit) which was being opposed by the neighbor because he was worried the shadows it cast would negatively impact his tomato plants.

The worst, most irrational NIMBYs I've found are always retirees or near retirees. I think this is for the same general reason that old people grow really hesitant to leave their homes even once they are no longer able to maintain them. Lots of people just hate the idea of any change to their daily routine or the world around them as they get older. And given the Village of Shadyside around 30 years old, it probably has a lot of Boomers who were among the first generation who bought in.

Last edited by eschaton; Oct 25, 2019 at 4:53 PM.
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  #2917  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:39 PM
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^ I can understand when some proposed development projects will seriously impact someone's property value, view, quality of life, etc. There are certainly circumstances where I think residents have every justifiable right to protest a poorly-thought out development.

But given the Village of Shadyside's location, the plans for the Shady Hill plaza redevelopment seem to be nothing but an improvement in comparison to what is presently there. Because right now, it's a crappy 1970s plaza, with a big uneven parking lot and prominent dumpster/loading dock area fronting Penn and bordering the Village property.

The planned development will significantly improve the bordering parcel of land, in a way that any rational person can see. So, it's definitely a case of what you describe... old people just being against any change whatsoever, even if it's overwhelmingly positive change that they stand to benefit from more than anyone else!
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  #2918  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 4:52 PM
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11/14 ZBA is up. A few projects of interest:

1. A new, 116,000 square foot, 78-unit, four-story apartment building with a 60 car integral garage and 2,850 square feet of ground floor retail space. The weird thing is the location...in the West End. More exactly, right here. This is, frankly, awesome, as I thought we were decades away from being able to fill in the gaps in the West End Village. I wonder if this is market-rate or mixed-income?

2. A new two-unit residential structure built way far up in Upper Lawrenceville, with a view of the river, right here.

Also, the November HRC presentation is online. As is always the case, most of the projects are small residential rehabs or resubmissions of older projects. There's a couple larger things though:

1. Rehab of these two historic structures on Bingham Street on the South Side into a 24-unit condo development. Should be a sweet little project once it's fixed up, and it will add to South Side's residential density, though I kinda don't like how that nearby surface lot will probably end up owned by the condo association in perpetuity.

2. There is a Desmone project involving adaptive reuse of the Maginn Building at 915 Liberty Avenue. This is a nice historic eight-story building which had the luggage store on the first story, and appears to have been totally vacant above. The new plans call for a redesign of the first floor to allow separate entrance to the upper stories, with condos above (likely 16, based upon the proposed floor plans). They would like to add a small rooftop lounge set back from Liberty (meaning limited visibility from the ground).
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  #2919  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
11/14 ZBA is up. A few projects of interest:

1. A new, 116,000 square foot, 78-unit, four-story apartment building with a 60 car integral garage and 2,850 square feet of ground floor retail space. The weird thing is the location...in the West End. More exactly, right here. This is, frankly, awesome, as I thought we were decades away from being able to fill in the gaps in the West End Village. I wonder if this is market-rate or mixed-income?
Wow... I'm surprised to see this proposal as well. Definitely a convenient location, but I guess I thought we'd see smaller proposals in the West End first, but a significant project like this is definitely welcome.

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2. A new two-unit residential structure built way far up in Upper Lawrenceville, with a view of the river, right here.
Isn't this location Morningside technically? I'm not trying to be a pain, I just don't actually know where the dividing line is.
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  #2920  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2019, 5:11 PM
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Wow... I'm surprised to see this proposal as well. Definitely a convenient location, but I guess I thought we'd see smaller proposals in the West End first, but a significant project like this is definitely welcome.
Looks like it's a TKA project. They don't have as much cache as some of the bigger firms, but they've done a lot in Pittsburgh in recent years (Brix, Oakland Portal, Hotel Indigo, the Residence Inn next to SkyVue, etc). All of these are kinda bland crap though.

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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Isn't this location Morningside technically? I'm not trying to be a pain, I just don't actually know where the dividing line is.
Dang, you're right. I should know my neighborhood better than that. Upper Lawrenceville along the river ends at the 62nd Street Bridge.
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