Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

I've literally never heard anyone say maréchaussée.

In Canada only the RCMP would say "le gendarme Acajack". In Québec all police would say "l'agent Acajack".

Gendarme = Constable in English, though you also hear Constable in French here too.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Thanks for teaching me about Canada from your vineyard in France.

More like an apple orchard.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've literally never heard anyone say maréchaussée.

I think the maréchaussée probably was not even established in French Canada, due to the particular nature of the terrain (super low density, recent settlements, hostile Iroquois and Tuniques rouges to the south, etc). Probably law and order was maintained via a mixture of regular French army + native militia. That would explain why the word is unknown in Québec.

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Canada only the RCMP would say "le gendarme Acajack". In Québec all police would say "l'agent Acajack".

In France "agent" only refers to members of the secret service, or to US federal policemen in the context of US TV series.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Gendarme = Constable in English, though you also hear Constable in French here too.

In proper French it is "connétable". That's where the English word constable comes from, but in France the connétable was the highest military officer of the kingdom until the 16th century (later replaced by marshalls). It wasn't a local law and order thing as far as I know (that's an English development). In the Channel Islands you can still see the use of that French term ("connétable" in the sense of local law and order officer must be either a Normand thing that was exported to England but not to the rest of France, or an English development that was later retranslated in French in the Channel Islands). That's some pictures I took last summer.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

No problem.

Thanks for teaching me about Canada from your vineyard in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think the maréchaussée probably was not even established in French Canada, due to the particular nature of the terrain (super low density, recent settlements, hostile Iroquois and Tuniques rouges to the south, etc). Probably law and order was maintained via a mixture of regular French army + native militia. That would explain why the word is unknown in Québec.


In France "agent" only refers to members of the secret service, or to US federal policemen in the context of US TV series.


In proper French it is "connétable". That's where the English word constable comes from, but in France the connétable was the highest military officer of the kingdom until the 16th century (later replaced by marshalls). It wasn't a local law and order thing as far as I know (that's an English development). In the Channel Islands you can still see the use of that French term ("connétable" in the sense of local law and order officer must be either a Normand thing that was exported to England but not to the rest of France, or an English development that was later retranslated in French in the Channel Islands). That's some pictures I took last summer.

Yes, don’t the French stay odd things like “le CRS Acajack”?

Here are the ranks for Montreal police. Pretty sure this is the way it is in most police services in Quebec.

https://spvm.qc.ca/fr/Pages/decouvri...gnes-et-grades

This below is one of the only official usages of “constable” under Quebec administration. A Constable spécial is basically an armed security guard in a court building.

https://www.quebec.ca/gouvernement/t...stable-special

Pretty sure it’s named as such due to the British influences on our legal system.

Again, “Connétable” is an unknown word here.

Note that “Constable” in Anglo-Canada is at least one notable difference between Canada and the US. Americans do not use that term at all, as far as
I know. They use “Officer”, “Patrolman” and “Trooper” I believe.

Of course, everywhere you have different jurisdictions you often have different terminology.

It’s cute to me how in francophone Belgium a “maire” (mayor) is a “bourgmestre”. Due to the influence of Flemish (Dutch). I believe that in the (DR) Congo, which was a Belgian colony that imposed Belgian French and not Flemish, they would also say “le bourgmestre de Kinshasa”.

[P'tit Renard]

Interesting take from English Canada..

Why would Quebec want to stay in Trudeau's beleaguered Canada?
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/why...aguered-canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interesting take from English Canada..

Why would Quebec want to stay in Trudeau's beleaguered Canada?
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/why...aguered-canada

Haha. Just read that. I guess were are plugged into the same feeds.

That piece is as much about Canada itself as it is about Quebec's relationship to it.

[Acajack]

Parti Québécois has pushed ahead of Quebec solidaire as the most popular party among younger voters. This was the last cohort that was resisting PSPP, and was dominated by QS for a number of years. We'll see if it lasts.

https://twitter.com/Gaspard_Skoda/st...959236/photo/1

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, don’t the French stay odd things like “le CRS Acajack”?

Not really. Titles are seldom used in France before the name, and the names of policemen cannot be mentioned by journalists anyway. As for ordinary people, they never know the names of the policemen, so they wouldn't have to name you. Only relatives of a policeman know his/her name, but then in that case they call him/her by his/her name only, since he/she's a relative. My cousin is a policeman, I never refer to him by his title (which I ignore in fact).

During medal ceremonies, in a very formal context, it will be "officier Acajack" I suppose. As in, Minister of the Interior looking very solemn: "Officier Acajack, pour vos états de service dignes de tous éloges, nous vous faisons chevalier dans l'ordre national du Mérite" (or whatever order it is they use for the police forces). [Napoleonic military march playing in the background, officier Acajack standing very moved and giving a military salute]

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by harls

No problem.

Thanks for teaching me about Canada from your vineyard in France.

Ouch!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not really. Titles are seldom used in France before the name, and the names of policemen cannot be mentioned by journalists anyway. As for ordinary people, they never know the names of the policemen, so they wouldn't have to name you. Only relatives of a policeman know his/her name, but then in that case they call him/her by his/her name only, since he/she's a relative. My cousin is a policeman, I never refer to him by his title (which I ignore in fact).

During medal ceremonies, in a very formal context, it will be "officier Acajack" I suppose. As in, Minister of the Interior looking very solemn: "Officier Acajack, pour vos états de service dignes de tous éloges, nous vous faisons chevalier dans l'ordre national du Mérite" (or whatever order it is they use for the police forces). [Napoleonic military march playing in the background, officier Acajack standing very moved and giving a military salute]

I assure you I am very deserving!

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I assure you I am very deserving!

• Video Link

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I believe that in the (DR) Congo, which was a Belgian colony that imposed Belgian French and not Flemish, they would also say “le bourgmestre de Kinshasa”.

Actually, French was not imposed in the Belgian Congo (the Flemish nationalists, who were becoming quite strong in Belgian politics after 1900, would not have tolerated it). Officially, both French and Flemish were used in the Belgian Congo, even though in practice most colonial officers spoke French (which was the dominating language in Belgium at the time). The official policy by the authorities was to use 4 regional native languages with the natives anyway, in order to control them better and prevent them from reaching outside information if they had known French. Only a handful of natives were taught French (most natives who went to the Belgian colonial schools were taught in one of the 4 regional native languages, namely Lingala, Swahili, Kikongo, and Tshiluba).

It is AFTER independence in 1960 that French was made the state language of the Democratic Republic of Congo. The leaders of the new country were the few Congolese who had learned French. They soon discarded Dutch after independence, and in reaction to Belgian colonial policies they decided to promote the French language in the education system to the detriment of the 4 regional native languages.

A coin and stamp from the Belgian Congo. You can see that Flemish politicians made a point that both languages be used in the Belgian Congo (even though in practice, as I've said, Flemish was seldom used by the colonial administrators).

[Acajack]

J'étais nonante-neuf pourcent certain d'avoir raison!

https://7sur7.cd/2023/04/16/commune-...i-3-marches-et

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Parti Québécois has pushed ahead of Quebec solidaire as the most popular party among younger voters.

That's surprising.

Do we have the breakup by immigrant background too?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's surprising.

Do we have the breakup by immigrant background too?

Not really. This is a serious shortcoming of polling in Quebec. In a lot of cases all of the non-francophone (roughly split between "anglos" and "immigrants") vote is even lumped together in polling results. Which means Dieudonné the Haitian immigrant who lives in Montréal-Nord and speaks only Kwéyol and French, is lumped in with anglo WASP types who live in Westmount.

I've written on social media to our top pollster Jean-Marc Léger about this. He says that it's not ideal but would be really hard to change given the small numbers involved.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

J'étais nonante-neuf pourcent certain d'avoir raison!

https://7sur7.cd/2023/04/16/commune-...i-3-marches-et

Yeah, Congolese French is modeled on Belgian French. They even have some specific Belgian pronunciation. The most revealing, which sets a Belgian (and Congolese) speaker appart from a French (and Québécois) speaker is the pronunciation of the "u" semi-vowel. French has 3 semi-vowels (English has only 2). So there is [w] (as in French "ouatte" or English "watt"), there is [y] (as in French "yeux" or English "yacht"), but French has a 3rd semi-vowel, the one found in "huit", "tuile", "fuite", etc. French and Québécois (and Swiss, and pretty much all Francophone speakers) we pronounce it [ɥ], but the Belgians and the Congolese pronounce it [w], i.e. for them there is no distinction between the 1st and the 3rd semi-vowel.

So they pronounce "huit" as "ouite" for instance. That's how you can easily recognize a Congolese (and a Belgian).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've written on social media to our top pollster Jean-Marc Léger about this. He says that it's not ideal but would be really hard to change given the small numbers involved.

Small numbers? In Montréal?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not really. This is a serious shortcoming of polling in Quebec. In a lot of cases all of the non-francophone (roughly split between "anglos" and "immigrants") vote is even lumped together in polling results. Which means Dieudonné the Haitian immigrant who lives in Montréal-Nord and speaks only Kwéyol and French, is lumped in with anglo WASP types who live in Westmount.

I've written on social media to our top pollster Jean-Marc Léger about this. He says that it's not ideal but would be really hard to change given the small numbers involved.

That said, I wouldn't get too excited. (Assuming you're excited.)

Even the allophones (not native speakers of French or English) most closely integrated with the francophone majority don't necessarily mirror Québécois francophone voting in the way that immigrants who integrate with anglophones do.

For example, in 1995, allophones like Jews or Indians voted something like 97% Non. Which is basically the same as anglophones. They also vote for the Liberals in similar proportions to anglophones.

Whereas in 1995, 61% of francophones voted Oui, but even in the allophone groups most wholly integrated with francophones, like Haitians or North Africans, I don't think the Oui got more than a quarter or the third of the vote at the very most.

I don't think things have changed very much since then.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Small numbers? In Montréal?

Here it is:

https://twitter.com/acajacques/statu...30186102034433