DOWNTOWN | Underground Atlanta redevelopment

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Of course not. They are only conceptual renderings. As mentioned above, this developer's experience is primarily Walmart anchored shopping centers. I don't see any Walmarts or similar big box stores represented in the renderings.

Why are you acting like it's so difficult for a developer with only experience in suburban developments to come up with a concept that is urban in design? I can do it and I don't have any degree in urban planning.

Plus, WRS didn't design it. S9 Architecture did and they're very experienced in urban designs...most of their work in NYC.

http://s9architecture.com/work/

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

The parking is likely required to get financing.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Why are you acting like it's so difficult for a developer with only experience in suburban developments to come up with a concept that is urban in concept? I can do it and I don't have any degree in urban planning.

Plus, WRS didn't design it. S9 Architecture did and they're very experienced in urban designs...most of their work in NYC.

http://s9architecture.com/work/

Again. This is a conceptual design. Those S9 renderings are mostly irrelevant. I am only "acting like" we have yet to see what this developer actually plans to build.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Again. This is a conceptual design. Those S9 renderings are mostly irrelevant. I am only "acting like" we have yet to see what this developer actually plans to build.

With all do respect smArTaLlone, I usually respect your opinions even if we differ. The agreement/sale of the Underground property is contingent on WRS building a project with the size and scope which they presented to the CoA/Invest Atlanta. If they change the project materially, they would be in violation of the agreement. Therefore, I do not believe the renderings WRS/S9 presented are irrelevant and the citizens of Atlanta and the residents of Five Points do not have to worry the property is suddenly going to become a TJMaxx, Hobby Lobby and Cracker Barrel - albeit most would probably welcome the jobs and shopping options.

Furthermore, let us not forget Selig Enterprises (co-developer of 12th & Midtown and the proposed 1105 West Peachtree development) is predominately a strip center developer.
http://www.seligenterprises.com/prop...ch&task=search

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Again. This is a conceptual design. Those S9 renderings are mostly irrelevant. I am only "acting like" we have yet to see what this developer actually plans to build.

These are the actual renderings for the project as it is currently planned to be built....this is what they presented to the actual planning authorities back in June. This is not a "vision" like you're trying to imply. A vision concept is what GSU made for Turner Field last year. Those are conceptual renderings of what an area "could" look like. The difference is those were never actually presented to the planning authorities or local DRC as the project that will be built.

Do you really believe considering everything they want to do in regards to the amounts of units, retail space, etc, there's enough space in downtown to create a suburban-esque strip-mall project? Really?

Being a suburban strip mall developer is irrelevant if you can hire an urban architectural firm to design the project which they did. Integral was a garden apartment and affordable housing development group before they built their first urban highrise in Denver.

Of course, things could always change in regards to design, but as far as I know, these are the actual renderings for the project.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

These are the actual renderings for the project as it is currently planned to be built....this is what they presented to the actual planning authorities back in June. This is not a "vision" like you're trying to imply. A vision concept is what GSU made for Turner Field last year. Those are conceptual renderings of what an area "could" look like. The difference is those were never actually presented to the planning authorities or local DRC as the project that will be built.

Do you really believe considering everything they want to do in regards to the amounts of units, retail space, etc, there's enough space in downtown to create a suburban-esque strip-mall project? Really?

Being a suburban strip mall developer is irrelevant if you can hire an urban architectural firm to design the project which they did. Integral was a garden apartment and affordable housing development group before they built their first urban highrise in Denver.

Of course, things could always change in regards to design, but as far as I know, these are the actual renderings for the project.

Just for clarification, I am NOT suggesting that this developer is trying to build a literal strip mall at Underground.

That being said, these renderings are clearly conceptual; meaning that the design of the individual buildings, street levels etc will have little to no resemblance to what is pictured. As an example, an 80,000 sf store is said to be central to this plan but none are detailed in these renderings. Where is it? There are a few good examples of big box stores in urban settings but they are extremely rare. Regardless, further details of the project will be revealed if the deal is completed and as the project progresses so debating the renderings is rather pointless.

Its great that you have so much faith in this developer but I personally prefer to see it before I believe it.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

That being said, these renderings are clearly conceptual;

Ding ding! What we'll more likely get on site is obvious parking podiums with retail at the base and basic student housing looking towers on top, at the expense of whatever history is left on site. The site plan and overall renderings don't even fully line up. They're obviously conceptual.

Hope I'm wrong!

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

Ding ding! What we'll more likely get on site is obvious parking podiums with retail at the base and basic student housing looking towers on top, at the expense of whatever history is left on site. The site plan and overall renderings don't even fully line up. They're obviously conceptual.

Hope I'm wrong!

or better yet, hope WRS doesn't get financing. lol

[Atlanta3000]

Again....Facts
To those who underestimate strip center developers ability to obtain financing your favorite Atlanta strip developer, Jeff Fuqua (like or hate him), seems to have an unlimited ability to tap financial resources. And for the record, WRS, Inc is larger.

WRS, Inc - About Us
WRS, Inc. provides a range of real estate investment services, including the development of commercial retail, office, and mixed-use projects, real estate property management, and commercial brokerage services. Since our company’s launch in 2001, we have developed over thirty anchored retail shopping centers covering over seven million square-feet of retail space. With our company’s strong values, and our experience and reputation as our most important assets, our company has aided in the development of more than 100 additional retail projects encompassing more than ten million square-feet of retail space. Furthermore, we have assisted with office space projects comprised of more than 500,000 square-feet, as well as several significant hotel, entertainment and sports facility developments. Collectively, our executive team has more than 200 years of experience in the development industry, and we pride ourselves on upholding our reputation.

We will see who has the last laugh...

[3yonce]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Furthermore, let us not forget Selig Enterprises (co-developer of 12th & Midtown and the proposed 1105 West Peachtree development) is predominately a strip center developer.

Speaking of Selig and Underground, think Selig will redevelop either of its two single-story shopping strips at Five Points if this ever gets built?

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

As an example, an 80,000 sf store is said to be central to this plan but none are detailed in these renderings. Where is it?

This picture was released in their last PR statement. It clearly depicts where the grocery store is going and it aligns to the rending above.

[Atlriser]

As someone who lives in Grant Park and has to visit this area for work and civic meetings often, therr is never parking available in the existing underground decks nor the surrounding decks. I ALWAYS WALK to any of the government offices that surround underground. In addition during my walk I pass the lots around Turner field where 1000s of cars park daily and take the GSU and Fulton County Buses to the various stops surrounding Underground. The buses are always packed and people (including me when it rains) have to wait for 2 or 3 buses to ride to this area.

I love walking to the new Kroger at Edgewood, but when buying weekly groceries to walk is absolutely impossible when you buy $100 of groceries or more. Edgewood Kroger has a huge lot yes but it's probably 85% full during busy times and that's without the new apts finished and rented out. The parking is needed whether you like it or not. I've lived in this area for 15 years and my family walks/jogs to Tech CRC, Tech Square, Atlantic Station, 10th Street and Edgewood area all the time, we hate driving. The parking is still needed though especially in the summer heat when you are dressed for work or even when it's 90 outside and walking far distances will cause a heat stroke in the city.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

As someone who lives in Grant Park and has to visit this area for work and civic meetings often, therr is never parking available in the existing underground decks nor the surrounding decks. I ALWAYS WALK to any of the government offices that surround underground. In addition during my walk I pass the lots around Turner field where 1000s of cars park daily and take the GSU and Fulton County Buses to the various stops surrounding Underground. The buses are always packed and people (including me when it rains) have to wait for 2 or 3 buses to ride to this area.

I love walking to the new Kroger at Edgewood, but when buying weekly groceries to walk is absolutely impossible when you buy $100 of groceries or more. Edgewood Kroger has a huge lot yes but it's probably 85% full during busy times and that's without the new apts finished and rented out. The parking is needed whether you like it or not. I've lived in this area for 15 years and my family walks/jogs to Tech CRC, Tech Square, Atlantic Station, 10th Street and Edgewood area all the time, we hate driving. The parking is still needed though especially in the summer heat when you are dressed for work or even when it's 90 outside and walking far distances will cause a heat stroke in the city.

Your story is perfect anecdotal evidence of why they should NOT build 2000 extra parking spots or a giant grocery store here. You had trouble parking, so you walked. That's how you design a city center. Make it easy to walk, bike, and take transit, and relatively difficult to park, and you get a vibrant district that's not clogged with cars and massive faceless parking decks. Build several small grocery stores, instead of one massive big box grocery store, and you encourage people to walk and visit the stores more frequently. If someone wants unlimited free parking, they can go to the suburbs. We can't "out suburb" the suburbs. Built it right, or built it up in North Fulton. We don't need or want a bush league version of "Avalon South" in downtown.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Your story is perfect anecdotal evidence of why they should NOT build 2000 extra parking spots or a giant grocery store here. You had trouble parking, so you walked. That's how you design a city center. Make it easy to walk, bike, and take transit, and relatively difficult to park, and you get a vibrant district that's not clogged with cars and massive faceless parking decks. Build several small grocery stores, instead of one massive big box grocery store, and you encourage people to walk and visit the stores more frequently. If someone wants unlimited free parking, they can go to the suburbs. We can't "out suburb" the suburbs. Built it right, or built it up in North Fulton. We don't need or want a bush league version of "Avalon South" in downtown.

How about you respond to the questions in my last post since I responded to yours (not to mention you said I attacked to your opinions).

Lastly, the "big box" grocery store is only accounting for 400 of the 3500 parking spaces. The additional retail, hotel rooms and apartments account for the remainder of the 3,100 parking spaces.

You can chose whether to answer this or not, but I am curious if you have a car and where do you park it?

[Atlriser]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Your story is perfect anecdotal evidence of why they should NOT build 2000 extra parking spots or a giant grocery store here. You had trouble parking, so you walked. That's how you design a city center. Make it easy to walk, bike, and take transit, and relatively difficult to park, and you get a vibrant district that's not clogged with cars and massive faceless parking decks. Build several small grocery stores, instead of one massive big box grocery store, and you encourage people to walk and visit the stores more frequently. If someone wants unlimited free parking, they can go to the suburbs. We can't "out suburb" the suburbs. Built it right, or built it up in North Fulton. We don't need or want a bush league version of "Avalon South" in downtown.

wrong! I walk for my health and by choice. My mother and father would not be able to stand the heat like myself nor should they have to when they visit the area or have to go to the many government (local, county, state and federal) offices surrounding underground. I understand your concept but its just not reality. The people in those decks come from all over metro Atlanta and even Western AL on a regular basis. Build them a system to get to the area that doesnt require a car then discuss parking problems. No offense meant but your logic doesnt match reality. This area is heavily traveled by people who drive 40 or more miles a day needing services provided by all the agencies around. Even as a citizen in close proximity I need to drive and take clients or documents that require a car occasionally and its difficult now without this further development making the parking situation completely unworkable. This area is VERY DEPENDENT ON PARKING FOR RESIDENTS ALL OVER GA. Its the center of the government for the city, county and state along with federal agencies within a 5 minute walk of underground. Parking is extremely scarce and public transit is severely lacking for these people to access government and for our government to function properly as is. Your argument doesnt hold because of the nature of this area and its importance to the entire citizenry of the state. This area is far different in function than the developing urban fabric of midtown and the intown neighborhoods. PARKING IS ESENTIAL AT THIS LOCATION AND DESPARATELY NEEDED NOW WITHOUT ANY DEVELOPMENT. We will just have to agree to disagree.

In addition, I love the Huge Kroger and despise the little Publixs all over Atlanta. I hate visiting the little stores with 2 selections and such and paying 50% more for 1/2 size jars of food. Because of the big new Kroger being able to meet my needs I travel even less then before to shopping areas on Howell Mill and on Monroe, but I cant carry frozen chicken and ice cream 1.5 miles even in December without it melting and spoiling much less March or July. The big box Kroger has cut down my car trips significantly and im happy its close by. Id love another similar store at Underground to be honest as would my neighbors all around me because we have discussed it. If I had to shop and pay the prices a Publix and the local CVS for food, my family of 3 would end up driving 10 or more miles several times a week (instead of 1 mile a week) because even with my middle class salary and living in my home for 15 years there wouldn't be enough money for everything. Sorry but thats reality! am very urban and believe in transit and all but reality trumps idealism everyday!

[Street Advocate]

Ignorance is bliss.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Ignorance is bliss.

SA - I am not personally "attacking" you just so we are clear, but who are you referring to with your comment? If it is at me, I am fine with it. I am a big boy and thick skinned.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by 3yonce

Speaking of Selig and Underground, think Selig will redevelop either of its two single-story shopping strips at Five Points if this ever gets built?

Interesting and I did not know that - good catch!

However to respond to your question, hell no would he or any other developer ever build in ATLANTA if they could not also have parking.

[Atlriser]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Ignorance is bliss.

As are comments with no explanation.

[shivtim]

This is why Atlanta will never be a world class city. I vote we tear down the Fox theater and build a parking deck. Also, parking is a b*tch at Piedmont Park and that one parking deck isn't enough. If we just put a 2,000 space parking deck on the big lawn, there would be plenty of space for everyone to drive in and park for festivals and events.