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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 2:52 PM
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How do you know there is no demand? No developers in Houston even offer duplexes, or even allow it in their subdivisions. Duplexes, guest houses, etc are deeded out of most of Houston. There are few that even exist at all. Some offer "patio homes" but not all, as an option for housing. It probably comes down to profit for the developers, not demand. Higher profit for developers on SFH.
Houston is full of garage apartments which are a 'guest house' above a garage. There are also duplexes but in older areas. You won't find them in newer masterplanned suburbs. I think if there were a stronger demand, developers would build more and find a way to find them profitable if that were an issue.

Patio homes are common but fairly pricey compared to the average SFH.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Probably one of the few authentic experiences of childhood in multi family housing posted here.

The rest is mostly over-romanticized notions from a bunch of adults who think cities are far richer places (For children) than they really are.

Truth is, nowadays the suburbs aren’t what they were in 1970. They are diverse (in both viewpoints and ethnicities, unlike center cities which are mostly politically uniform), they offer a vast diversity of experiences, they obviously are more spacious as well. I’m not sure what my kids are losing by not living in Lincoln Square, for example. This is more about making adults happy, I don’t think the kids really care about being able to walk to the local bank, for example.
While I certainly agree that surrounding Children with others that are not like them, will pay off later in life, I sort of have an issue with the mindset of "I want my kid to go to school with lower income kids"; I was the "lower income kid" in my high school "went to high school in Westchester County (commuted an hour everyday from Wash Heights) with a bunch of kids from Rye, NY because NYC HS in my area were complete shit.
15 year old me doesn't like the idea of being a life lesson from some upper middle class kid; I got along just fine with kids in my HS, but it was obvious I was the immigrant city kid (parents are born in Italy). I was certainly motivated in life before HS but spending summers at friends beach house or having friends parents drive me back to Manhattan so I didn't have to take the Train/bus/Train to get home certainly was a extra motivating factor.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Probably one of the few authentic experiences of childhood in multi family housing posted here.

The rest is mostly over-romanticized notions from a bunch of adults who think cities are far richer places (For children) than they really are.

Truth is, nowadays the suburbs aren’t what they were in 1970. They are diverse (in both viewpoints and ethnicities, unlike center cities which are mostly politically uniform), they offer a vast diversity of experiences, they obviously are more spacious as well. I’m not sure what my kids are losing by not living in Lincoln Square, for example. This is more about making adults happy, I don’t think the kids really care about being able to walk to the local bank, for example.
My in-laws and their 2 pre-teen kids recently moved to my neighborhood in North Buffalo into 1 floor of a double, after living in an older SFH in Dallas.

Unlike Dallas, here the kids have a level of "free-range" that they never had before, and which basically didn't exist where they lived in Dallas. Here they safely and unescorted ride their bikes around the area, including to shops on the main business drag. They have a bigger (shared) yard than they did in Dallas, and their bedrooms are of comparable size. In Dallas, they were basically home bound because it never felt "safe" and there were really no places to go nearby. On their first visit to one of the local candy stores, they said in amazement that they had heard of such places, but didn't know they really existed. Now they can just take their own money and go on their own.

They are currently enrolled in a local private Catholic school, primarily because they missed registration deadlines for their preferred magnet/charter schools in the district for this year, and weren't yet comfortable putting kids into the public elementary, mainly due to COVID and unfamiliarity.

Yes, it has made their parents happy because their kids are happier. They are also happy because basically everything they need (school, shopping, etc) is within walking distance or a 5 to 10 minute car ride.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Probably one of the few authentic experiences of childhood in multi family housing posted here.

The rest is mostly over-romanticized notions from a bunch of adults who think cities are far richer places (For children) than they really are.

Truth is, nowadays the suburbs aren’t what they were in 1970. They are diverse (in both viewpoints and ethnicities, unlike center cities which are mostly politically uniform), they offer a vast diversity of experiences, they obviously are more spacious as well. I’m not sure what my kids are losing by not living in Lincoln Square, for example. This is more about making adults happy, I don’t think the kids really care about being able to walk to the local bank, for example.
I loved my years growing up in apartments through age 7 and a duplex to age 8. We didn't have a car for much of that time, but everything was close so we walked or rode the bus. This, plus the negative suburban experience at age 9-14, was the genesis of my love for cities.

The suburban period was about being trapped in the neighborhood with nothing to do other than other kids' houses. Getting to school required a school bus. Lots of waiting.

As for townhouses and other middle types, there's a market everywhere for options that mix the advantages/disadvantages of houses and apartments/condos. If these don't exist, it's somewhere between land use codes (or de facto codes) and developers not seeing a financial benefit to do these vs. other types.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I loved my years growing up in apartments through age 7 and a duplex to age 8. We didn't have a car for much of that time, but everything was close so we walked or rode the bus. This, plus the negative suburban experience at age 9-14, was the genesis of my love for cities.

The suburban period was about being trapped in the neighborhood with nothing to do other than other kids' houses. Getting to school required a school bus. Lots of waiting.

As for townhouses and other middle types, there's a market everywhere for options that mix the advantages/disadvantages of houses and apartments/condos. If these don't exist, it's somewhere between land use codes (or de facto codes) and developers not seeing a financial benefit to do these vs. other types.
I think this has less to do with the housing type (SFH, Apartment, Rowhouse, etc) and more to do with the neighborhood. Children thrive when they have access to outdoor space - I certainly didn't have that on demand growing up in NYC, it was more of a "mom, can you take me to the park" situation. Additionally, city living is all relative...A family raising their children in a city neighborhood in Chicago, LA, Seattle, Minneapolis, Dallas etc is going to look a lot different than raising a family in Manhattan. What I called "the Country" growing up, doesn't look all that different than the typical North Side of Chicago neighborhood, and probably more urban than most other cities in the Country.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 4:59 PM
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While I certainly agree that surrounding Children with others that are not like them, will pay off later in life, I sort of have an issue with the mindset of "I want my kid to go to school with lower income kids"; I was the "lower income kid" in my high school "went to high school in Westchester County (commuted an hour everyday from Wash Heights) with a bunch of kids from Rye, NY because NYC HS in my area were complete shit.
There are other dynamics beyond just diversity, though. Until moving in 10th grade, I went to public schools in a town where there was only one high school and no real alternatives. So the school I went to was pretty comprehensive in terms of having the full range of classes whether regular or AP, and there was a full choice of doing vocational or technical electives or doing more college prep oriented classes. Also there was this whole attitude that the school represented the entire community so you had involved parents and local businesses sponsoring things.

What happens when you have separate "good" and "bad" schools through arbitrary zoning designed to capture newer subdivisions and exclude less desirable areas, and when you allow private, charter, or religious schools to proliferate, the mandate to really care about the students and the connection the community at large has to education just sort of dissolves. The "good" schools are ultimately motivated to remain good not by actually having superior teaching, but by self-selecting a student body and/or the most supportive parents, either through exclusionary zoning in the case of traditional public schools or for private/charter/religious schools having somewhat unnecessary admissions or discipline or academic expectations. The "bad" schools are in perpetual recovery mode, they subject their kids to whatever the new trend in teaching is, they get bogged down into teaching nothing but standardized testing, don't have extracurriculars, etc, and that's before you get to the issue of disruptive or violent students being concentrated enough in numbers to be an issue.

I get that affluent families in supposedly liberal major cities like New York, would have a total meltdown if they had to send their kids to the same public schools as the poor kids, but if that happened en masse I don't see how the outcome would be any different from the daily reality of a family living in Minnesota or something.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Probably one of the few authentic experiences of childhood in multi family housing posted here.

The rest is mostly over-romanticized notions from a bunch of adults who think cities are far richer places (For children) than they really are.

...

I’m not sure what my kids are losing by not living in Lincoln Square, for example. This is more about making adults happy, I don’t think the kids really care about being able to walk to the local bank, for example.
way to dismiss those who don't agree with you!

saying that people choose urban life so we can "walk to the local bank" (people go to banks!??!) is an egregious scarecrow. i can guarantee that my kids are not "losing out" on sitting in the car to get to school, friend's houses, restaurants, parks, the doctor, etc. walkability is even BETTER for children than adults, and i speak from first-hand experience. i grew up as a kid whose mom had to drive us everywhere. my kids and i and their mom walk most everywhere and they love it. they're healthy, get lots of exercise, see all kinds of cool funny stuff on the street (e.g. all the recent covid street art), there are safe, expansive, and varied parks for them to run around within two blocks.

we chose this place for our children for the same reasons people without children do. convenience, diversity (people and experience,) sustainability (less land, electricity, and fossil fuels), safety ("for children 5 to 19 years of age, the most injury deaths were due to being an occupant in a motor vehicle traffic crash."), and beauty.

my life isn't an "over-romanticized notion," thank you very much.

as an architect and urbanist, i agree with the notion a page or so back that there's a "missing middle" in urban housing in the united states. high density (100du/ac?), mid-rise with a generous mix of common and private open space. limit parking to .25/unit, require the open space, retail on the corners, neighborhood commercial strips and 1/4 to full block parks every few blocks... it's not rocket science!
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:06 PM
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Until I turned 16, we were always in apartments. All my friends lived in apartments and it felt completely normal. Some of my parent's friends lived in houses and I remember thinking it was nice to live like that but I never felt a lack. When you're young, that societal pressure just isn't there.

I would say to the OP if all your kids' friends live in houses, then they might start to have some questions but otherwise I certainly wouldn't worry about it. I honestly think city living is good for children (of course this depends on the neighbourhood/city).

I recently bought a semi in a 1920-30's area and I'll raise my baby and toddler here for the foreseeable future. The kids will grow up playing in the laneway, riding the streetcar, spending time on a busy commercial street, etc (post-covid, obviously). All of which can be enriching experiences, I think.
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Probably one of the few authentic experiences of childhood in multi family housing posted here.

The rest is mostly over-romanticized notions from a bunch of adults who think cities are far richer places (For children) than they really are.

Truth is, nowadays the suburbs aren’t what they were in 1970. They are diverse (in both viewpoints and ethnicities, unlike center cities which are mostly politically uniform), they offer a vast diversity of experiences, they obviously are more spacious as well. I’m not sure what my kids are losing by not living in Lincoln Square, for example.

It's not any more authentic than the other examples, just more extreme. Many others have posted of their largely positive experiences growing up or raising children in urban and/or multi-family environments.

But I think most of us are also reasonable enough to agree that there's probably a better middle-ground for child rearing than the extremes of an Upper Manhattan tenement or a Schaumburg subdivision. There are an abundance of family-friendly urban neighbourhoods in North America.



Quote:
This is more about making adults happy, I don’t think the kids really care about being able to walk to the local bank, for example.

And even if that's the case, what's the problem? Should a parent not locate in a place that makes them happy? Giving up your own conveniences and preferences just so your kid can have a yard to play in for a few years (which they won't even care about anymore once they get into video games or whatever) isn't great either.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:23 PM
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It's not any more authentic than the other examples, just more extreme. Many others have posted of their largely positive experiences growing up or raising children in urban and/or multi-family environments.

But I think most of us are also reasonable enough to agree that there's probably a better middle-ground for child rearing than the extremes of an Upper Manhattan tenement or a Schaumburg subdivision. There are an abundance of family-friendly urban neighbourhoods in North America.






And even if that's the case, what's the problem? Should a parent not locate in a place that makes them happy? Giving up your own conveniences and preferences just so your kid can have a yard to play in for a few years (which they won't even care about anymore once they get into video games or whatever) isn't great either.
I agree that it's a balance. Somewhere between sprawling suburban hell and 100K ppsm density of upper Manhattan is probably best.

The factor missing in this conversation is Money - Growing up poor/low income in multi family housing sucks regardless of city, but multi family housing with money is way better. Neighborhood being equal, It's certainly better to live in a SFH than an Apartment or Condo, that we can all agree to, i'm sure.

As a kid who grew up in a very urban area, I think these are requirements for a child to enjoy that life:
1. Access to grass/trees/parks
2. Ability to be independent outside at a young age (~5 years old)
3. Enough room indoors to have privacy, especially with siblings
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:29 PM
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A bit of straw man-ing here

I’m just saying that the idea that it’s “good for the kids” can be a bit disingenuous.

Truth is, none of these “urban experiences” described in the above few posts aren’t available to my kids growing up in the suburbs.

The “candy store” experience in particular I find baffling. I don’t know what the hell is going on in suburban Dallas, but we have candy stores in downtown Libertyville. I and my kids have biked to downtown Libertyville numerous times.

Yes, my kids do need to be shepherded around in cars but still, they get out, walk to the park, and get plenty of physical activity. This idea of kids walking to the candy store on Main St is a very quaint idea that most Americans will never experience, but I think people are exaggerating how valuable or important it is as a part of one’s upbringing.

I can take my kids into the city whenever I want to experience urbanity. And pre-Covid, I did it a lot. But it seems that many urbanites (not all) seem to show such a disdain for the suburbs that they will not say the same in reverse. They’d just as soon deprive themselves and their kids of the vast number of experiences their metropolitan area offers because “the suburbs suck” or whatever ideology informs them.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:35 PM
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Addressing the OP’s question, I lived in a home up until age 2

Then at age 3-5 I lived in apartments and duplexes

From 5-9 I lived in a duplex

From 9 until College I lived in a SFH
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:49 PM
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For some reason duplexes are rare across the greater Houston area but fairly common in other parts of the state. I'm not sure why.

It's interesting someone from Buffalo would point this out. I just kind of noticed it a few weeks ago when I was casually searching online home listings to see how much owning a duplex would cost and found that lo and behold, there weren't any. In College Station they are absolutely everywhere and same with the Killeen-Fort Hood area. Little towns seem to have a good number of them too, I think they fill the role of affordable rental housing in places too small to justify a big suburban style apartment complex with hundreds of units.

A duplex in Texas is usually one story and has about the same overall footprint as a typical 4-bedroom house and costs about the same, but instead it's split down the middle into two apartment-sized units that have one or two bedrooms. There are also four-plexes too which are two story, but that means two of the units don't get a yard.

This is an interesting option if you are single but want to be a property owner and want to live in a detached dwelling with a private fenced yard in a suburban setting, but you don't need an entire house. Secondly, you can then be a secret landlord by renting out the other half through a property management company.

You do see semi-detached full-sized houses with 3 or 4 bedrooms and a 2 car garage that are connected to the house next door on one side but not the other in places like the DFW metroplex but I never saw the point of those.

Wait, is a Duplex in the US just two houses sharing a party wall. Ie. this:


https://www.tepilo.com/blog/2014/09/...detached-house


As opposed to two units stacked vertically?


https://urbanrealtytoronto.com/downt...plex-for-sale/


If so that definitely doesn't count as multi-family!
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 5:56 PM
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Wait, is a Duplex in the US just two houses sharing a party wall. Ie. this:


https://www.tepilo.com/blog/2014/09/...detached-house


As opposed to two units stacked vertically?


https://urbanrealtytoronto.com/downt...plex-for-sale/


If so that definitely doesn't count as multi-family!
I assumed "multi-family" meant anything not a single-family home - ie separate entrances, separate mailboxes, separate kitchen/baths on a single property count as multi-family. A row house with individual ownership wouldn't count if it was only one family per house. That's the way our local realtors and tax districts look at it.

Common homes in my neighborhood are mostly doubles (1 up 1 down, same floor plans) with few side-by-sides. Many of the doubles have been split into triples (attic converted to 3rd floor apartment), fours (double split into 2 up 2 down), or split further into as many as 6 apartments in the student ghetto areas. My street is about half SFH, and the rest doubles with a couple split further, and one 4-unit apartment building.

My neighborhood also has smaller dedicated apartment buildings (4 units to 20+ units), larger apartment buildings (up to 100+ units), garden-style apartments and projects (100+ units per complex, usually 2 story), mixed-use apartment buildings (2 to 5 story, businesses first floor, apartments above), and apartments converted from other buildings (churches, schools, warehouses, etc 10s to over 100 apartments per building).

Last edited by benp; Oct 4, 2020 at 7:05 PM.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 6:03 PM
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Duplex is exactly that—two homes sharing a wall. It’s probably not much different than SFH

I lived in a duplex from age 5-9 and it was pretty much a SFH type experience. I would only say that if the two homes are stacked vertically, like a Chicago two flat, the experience may “feel” a bit more like apartment living. If you have to climb a set of stairs to get to your home, then you’re already experiencing something that SFH dwellers don’t usually have to deal with.
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Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 6:32 PM
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The first example (joined houses with party wall) is far more common than the second example (vertically stacked) in modern US suburbs. The latter looks like something from an old east coast city.

The duplexes im familiar with are one story houses with a concrete wall down the middle. So they both have private fenced backyards and front yards and driveways and for the most part it’s like living in an SFH

As I said earlier, they are a cool middle option if you can only afford or need a small apartment but want a yard or house feel. It’s a shame some cities have few of them.

Also they don’t seem to replace large dwellings in a more dense footprint, as those tend to come in the configuration of attached row or townhouses now in Houston and it’s suburbs.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 6:41 PM
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A bit of straw man-ing here

I’m just saying that the idea that it’s “good for the kids” can be a bit disingenuous.

Truth is, none of these “urban experiences” described in the above few posts aren’t available to my kids growing up in the suburbs.

The “candy store” experience in particular I find baffling. I don’t know what the hell is going on in suburban Dallas, but we have candy stores in downtown Libertyville. I and my kids have biked to downtown Libertyville numerous times.

Yes, my kids do need to be shepherded around in cars but still, they get out, walk to the park, and get plenty of physical activity. This idea of kids walking to the candy store on Main St is a very quaint idea that most Americans will never experience, but I think people are exaggerating how valuable or important it is as a part of one’s upbringing.

I can take my kids into the city whenever I want to experience urbanity. And pre-Covid, I did it a lot. But it seems that many urbanites (not all) seem to show such a disdain for the suburbs that they will not say the same in reverse. They’d just as soon deprive themselves and their kids of the vast number of experiences their metropolitan area offers because “the suburbs suck” or whatever ideology informs them.
Sure you can drive them. You can show them a candy store on the internet, and buy candy from Amazon, too. But it is not the same having the ability to independently walk or bike without their parents, every single day.

It's not just a "quaint idea" but something that people do here every day.

Is it valuable or important to their upbringing? All I can tell you is that it was important to me growing up, and it was important for my own kids. Their first years growing up were in the suburbs, but their later years at home were in the city. They became more independent, they became less fearful of cities and people, they needed much much less taxi service from Mom & Dad, and they were very grateful for the experience of living in the city compared to their old home in the suburbs.

My "ideology" is not the driver of my thoughts differentiating city versus suburban living, but my experience is. I always preferred to live close to city amenities, but I lived in the suburbs for almost 20 years to be closer to work. For a short time I was not allowed to drive due to medical issues, and I realized how trapped I felt, how little there was to do, and how little was accessible, without having a car. After that experience I moved to Inner Loop of Houston (traded a longer drive for better daily living), which was much much better even though not yet a "walker's paradise," and later I moved back to Buffalo where I can easily give up my car if I choose to.

You are also lucky that you are living in a town like Libertyville, which at least has a "downtown" associated with it, and looks like a smaller version of our neighborhood business strip. Many, if not most, suburbs in different parts of the country have no such "Main Street" areas. These types of areas did not exist in suburban Houston.
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Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 6:54 PM
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Sure you can drive them. You can show them a candy store on the internet, and buy candy from Amazon, too. But it is not the same having the ability to independently walk or bike without their parents, every single day.

It's not just a "quaint idea" but something that people do here every day.

Is it valuable or important to their upbringing? All I can tell you is that it was important to me growing up, and it was important for my own kids. Their first years growing up were in the suburbs, but their later years at home were in the city. They became more independent, they became less fearful of cities and people, they needed much much less taxi service from Mom & Dad, and they were very grateful for the experience of living in the city compared to their old home in the suburbs.

My "ideology" is not the driver of my thoughts differentiating city versus suburban living, but my experience is. I always preferred to live close to city amenities, but I lived in the suburbs for almost 20 years to be closer to work. For a short time I was not allowed to drive due to medical issues, and I realized how trapped I felt, how little there was to do, and how little was accessible, without having a car. After that experience I moved to Inner Loop of Houston (traded a longer drive for better daily living), which was much much better even though not yet a "walker's paradise," and later I moved back to Buffalo where I can easily give up my car if I choose to.

You are also lucky that you are living in a town like Libertyville, which at least has a "downtown" associated with it, and looks like a smaller version of our neighborhood business strip. Many, if not most, suburbs in different parts of the country have no such "Main Street" areas. These types of areas did not exist in suburban Houston.
None of this is really related to "City" vs. "Suburbs", but more so development catered to the automobile vs. pedestrians. I think 100% of the people on this forum, and majority of Americans would agree that pedestrian scaled development is better, but that can be found in spades throughout Chicago, DC, NYC, LA suburbs.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 7:14 PM
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Duplex is exactly that—two homes sharing a wall. It’s probably not much different than SFH

I lived in a duplex from age 5-9 and it was pretty much a SFH type experience. I would only say that if the two homes are stacked vertically, like a Chicago two flat, the experience may “feel” a bit more like apartment living. If you have to climb a set of stairs to get to your home, then you’re already experiencing something that SFH dwellers don’t usually have to deal with.
Here are some "doubles" in my neighborhood.
https://goo.gl/maps/YcDjeckSchDf9vyY7

Last edited by benp; Oct 4, 2020 at 7:36 PM.
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Old Posted Oct 4, 2020, 7:18 PM
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Wait, is a Duplex in the US just two houses sharing a party wall. Ie. this:


https://www.tepilo.com/blog/2014/09/...detached-house


As opposed to two units stacked vertically?


https://urbanrealtytoronto.com/downt...plex-for-sale/


If so that definitely doesn't count as multi-family!
That first example looks a little more like 2 row houses to me. I thought duplexes were two houses created from a single structure.

This is a duplex: https://goo.gl/maps/4EKZXFeMpXeBgRsQ6

These are not: https://goo.gl/maps/72adrqSndTbaLVtXA
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