Tucson Development Thread

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by bthom3000

We are a poorly run city bc our city gov is not very business friendly. That's been a well documented problem for a long time. We have a severely underfunded police and fire department, terrible roads and maybe the fact that the city has blow hundreds of millions of dollars on nothing. There are lots of reasons why this city is in the top 20 worst. Have you ever had to do any business with the city? They are impossible to deal with and is a bureaucratic mess. Honestly both chandler and Scottsdale are better run cities. I have a house here in tucson and one in Scottsdale and it is so much easier getting through any permitting processes up there and they don't jerk you around and make things difficult on purpose like tucson does.

I remember Tucson was voted the best place to do business by some magazine back in the 90's or early 2000's (?). I think the city just recently fixed their bureaucratic mess. Tucson needs to be consistent with being pro-business. It's also documented that Tucson keeps fluctuating between pro and anti growth.

One area I would love to see urbanized is the city block of 6th ave/Broadway/Campbell/Euclid. That would be a good place for more 10 story mixed used. That area would be a nice place for a Trader Joe's and/or Sprouts.

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by farmerk

Maybe the owners of Cadence (and El Centro?) would allow painting murals on it's walls to make up for the 80's look. I like those changing murals at the Rialto. Hopefully, they will hire those same mural painters to paint some area in Cadence and El Centro.

Speaking of 4th ave., I believe there might be 2 bronze statues somewhere at the 4th ave underpass.

You guys are haters. The Cadence and Pioneer are not bad looking buildings. Sure theyre not the best but it's hard to complain when you personally dont own a better building. I don't mind the building. It's far from being the best building in downtown, far, but it's not the worst. Putting a mural on it would make it worse. Some more color would be nice though

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by farmerk

I remember Tucson was voted the best place to do business by some magazine back in the 90's or early 2000's (?). I think the city just recently fixed their bureaucratic mess. Tucson needs to be consistent with being pro-business. It's also documented that Tucson keeps fluctuating between pro and anti growth.

One area I would love to see urbanized is the city block of 6th ave/Broadway/Campbell/Euclid. That would be a good place for more 10 story mixed used. That area would be a nice place for a Trader Joe's and/or Sprouts.

Broadway and Campbell? That area has a lot of local businesses and a Safeway. That seems like a random spot in my opinion. For the type of buildings your describing they would fit better in the west end station are, downtown or on broadway between wilmot and swan. Personally I'd pick downtown, im a guy who likes a big skyline but an urban city is just as good.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

You guys are haters. The Cadence and Pioneer are not bad looking buildings. Sure theyre not the best but it's hard to complain when you personally dont own a better building. I don't mind the building. It's far from being the best building in downtown, far, but it's not the worst. Putting a mural on it would make it worse. Some more color would be nice though

I think putting a mural on it would make the building and the area around it nicer. Cadence and El Centro are not bad looking, they are average...at least from what I see from the renderings. They are located in a rustic, 'hip' and art area. The mural doesn't have to look like the ones at Rialto, they could look like the ones at the Broadway underpass (under the snake bridge, which I like, a lot).

The current Pioneer Building is UGLY...not even average.. And yes, I HATE the building. I'm glad they are renovating it to it's original 1920's design. I'd be happy if Cadence and El Centro would copy the 1920's Pioneer design.

As for the TEP buiding, I wished they add another 6+ floors above it or changed the design on top of it (sloped roof). Think of an Empire State Building that's nine floors high...doesn't look that good.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

Broadway and Campbell? That area has a lot of local businesses and a Safeway. That seems like a random spot in my opinion. For the type of buildings your describing they would fit better in the west end station are, downtown or on broadway between wilmot and swan. Personally I'd pick downtown, im a guy who likes a big skyline but an urban city is just as good.

Wilmot/Swan/Broadway would be good too. In fact, I would like to see the rest of Broadway, Speedway and Oracle urbanized. However, the block of Euclid/Broadway/6th st/Campbell needs to be worked on into an urban neighborhood due to it's location (downtown/UA). Tempe has a large block of older apts (rural rd/apache blvd/university blvd). UA should have one besides it.

I have no problem building taller buildings downtown if that would ever come.

[southtucsonboy77]

Originally Posted by farmerk

I think putting a mural on it would make the building and the area around it nicer. Cadence and El Centro are not bad looking, they are average...at least from what I see from the renderings. They are located in a rustic, 'hip' and art area. The mural doesn't have to look like the ones at Rialto, they could look like the ones at the Broadway underpass (under the snake bridge, which I like, a lot).

The current Pioneer Building is UGLY...not even average.. And yes, I HATE the building. I'm glad they are renovating it to it's original 1920's design. I'd be happy if Cadence and El Centro would copy the 1920's Pioneer design.

As for the TEP buiding, I wished they add another 6+ floors above it or changed the design on top of it (sloped roof). Think of an Empire State Building that's nine floors high...doesn't look that good.

I have to agree with farmerk...the Pioneer building is ugly. If you look closely, you can see some of the old brick that's painted over with that awful off-white. The original facade of that building was beautiful...comparable to the Chase Bank tower. I have a 1950s Arizona Highways magazine with downtown Tucson on the cover. The two buildings are amazing. If they can restore the Pioneer "hotel" back to it's glory days, it would definitely enhance downtown. In addition to the facade improvements of the "Walgreens" building, that would be a really nice NE/SE architectual/historical intersection.

To chime in on the murals discussion...I'd have to see the finish product of the Cadence buildings first. In downtown Hollywood, they have those large murals just north of Hollywood Blvd. I think they look pretty cool...and the murals are part of the iconic vibe of the Blvd. Would that be appropriate for downtown Tucson? I don't know. Too, when I went to Cleveland a few years back, this building had a huge banner of Lebron James with the words "Witness". That was neat. Without a doubt though, those murals on the Rialto Theatre were bad-ass.

[Anqrew]

i think it would be nice to restore the pioneer, but i dont think its a top priority. the building is a fine looking building in my opinion, no one gives it a second glance thinking its ugly. the money for that could be used on some other buildings downtown which are in worse conditions that really need a lift.

[Ritarancher]

The Pioneer is fine and if I owned the Cadence and saw these post, I'd leave Tucson ASAP. It's not a bad looking building. Besides we are beggars. We can not be choosers. Yes we do have some standards (no twin Pima Federal Building) but if the design is not bad still build it. So what if it's not the best thing you've seen. These people and companies invested their time and money downtown and that's something that nobody seems to do anymore. An example of this is Wilshire Grand in LA. To me the building is mild and I don't appreciate the fact that the designer thinks that we need to see giant advertisements displayed on a tall building.. I'm not too crazy about the look and a building like the US Bank building needs it's surpasser to leave a legacy as good as it did but in my opinion the Wilshire Grand is not that good. But sometimes that attitude is harmful. In a case like this it's better to go with it.

[farmerk]

This is how I would imagine the TEP would look like if it were taller.



btw, there's supposed to be retail at the bottom 2 floors of TEP, as promised. Still waiting.....

southtucsonboy77, yes the old Chase Bank building downtown is a nice looking building.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Anqrew

i think it would be nice to restore the pioneer, but i dont think its a top priority. the building is a fine looking building in my opinion, no one gives it a second glance thinking its ugly. the money for that could be used on some other buildings downtown which are in worse conditions that really need a lift.

I can't think of too many worse buildings. If the Pioneer gets fixed up, most of the money will be fronted by the building's owners so we're not talking about a zero-sum situation in which the Pioneer is fixed up in place of a different building.

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by farmerk

This is how I would imagine the TEP would look like if it were taller.



btw, there's supposed to be retail at the bottom 2 floors of TEP, as promised. Still waiting.....

southtucsonboy77, yes the old Chase Bank building downtown is a nice looking building.

I just now understood your empire state building reference it includes it's crown and only has nine floors. I agree that the TEP building looks a little stubby for the roof that it has. I remember somebody here describing it as a fat kid laying on his back.

[southtucsonboy77]

Ritarancher, you're right...beggars can't be choosers and I'm truly ecstatic with all the development going on, especially with the drought we had for all those years. With this thread though, we're all downtown enthusiasts and we all have our different spin on what would look good or not. I enjoy reading everyone's perspectives...and how everyone bounces ideas and shares information.

I rant and rave about the Level building all the time to my coworkers when we eat lunch at Main Gate...but those guys hate the look. The renderings for the Park Ave. development are not that architectually impressive to me, but I love the recent renderings of the Hub development. Overall, am I happy all 3 developments are being built and do I support their respective heights? Heck ya! Again, with the Pioneer builidng, seeing how it originally looked compared to what it is now...and if there are funds to restore the original facade and the owners are putting a portion of their funds into it...I would say that is a great idea. Tall or stubby, I like the new TEP building.

[Anqrew]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

I can't think of too many worse buildings. If the Pioneer gets fixed up, most of the money will be fronted by the building's owners so we're not talking about a zero-sum situation in which the Pioneer is fixed up in place of a different building.

I think it would be more beneficial to fix up the building that Monkey Burger is in called "The Arizona" that whole block on 6th Ave including Hydra and then some of those buildings on congress like the wig-o-rama building.

I think those buildings all look run-down while the pioneer looks very clean and maintained and doesnt really need a lift as it already looks good.

[aznate27]

Here's a link to a more in-depth article on Inside Tucson Business' website explaining the agreement between the city and Rio Nuevo. Don't expect the next hotel downtown to be anything close to the 30 story concept that was shot down. The city is looking for a more realistic hotel concept that better fits Tucson's economy. From the sound of it they have some prospects in the works for a new hotel, but on a much smaller scale. There is also renewed talk of what to do with the old Hotel Arizona...

City, Rio Nuevo end dispute, now begin to talk about hotel, TCC fixes

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by Anqrew

I think it would be more beneficial to fix up the building that Monkey Burger is in called "The Arizona" that whole block on 6th Ave including Hydra and then some of those buildings on congress like the wig-o-rama building.

I think those buildings all look run-down while the pioneer looks very clean and maintained and doesnt really need a lift as it already looks good.

Well, the facade restoration grants aren't about getting property owners to maintain their property, which seems to be the distinction you're making. You can give someone a bunch of money to fix their facade, but that won't guarantee they take care of it going forward.

The building that housed Grill is going to be torn down no matter what as that fire pretty much destroyed it and exposed a bunch of asbestos. However, your basic issue with those buildings (which, I agree, aren't beautiful) is their original architectural style. Even if they weren't torn down and were restored to their original best, they'd still be ugly. The Arizona doesn't actually look that bad to me. It just needs a paint job which goes to the issue in my first paragraph.

The Pioneer is different from all of those cases in that it's a beautiful building covered by a shell of midcentury crap. Maintenance aside, if you take that shell off and restore the original facade, you immediately improve our skyline significantly. That's mostly because it's actually visible in our skyline whereas none of the low-rises you mentioned are.

Even if that weren't the case, though, the point stands that a restoration of the Pioneer would entail a fundamental alteration of its appearance whereas repainting the other buildings you mentioned would be a temporary fix that would eventually be undone by poor maintenance.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by aznate27

Here's a link to a more in-depth article on Inside Tucson Business' website explaining the agreement between the city and Rio Nuevo. Don't expect the next hotel downtown to be anything close to the 30 story concept that was shot down. The city is looking for a more realistic hotel concept that better fits Tucson's economy. From the sound of it they have some prospects in the works for a new hotel, but on a much smaller scale. There is also renewed talk of what to do with the old Hotel Arizona...

City, Rio Nuevo end dispute, now begin to talk about hotel, TCC fixes

Rio Nuevo getting behind Stiteler's hotel plan at 5th and Toole would be great.

[Anqrew]

view from Level, wish i had that view of downtown! (wlthough it might not be there once they build Hub lol)

[omarainza]

Originally Posted by Anqrew

I think it would be more beneficial to fix up the building that Monkey Burger is in called "The Arizona" that whole block on 6th Ave including Hydra and then some of those buildings on congress like the wig-o-rama building.

I think those buildings all look run-down while the pioneer looks very clean and maintained and doesnt really need a lift as it already looks good.

i dont understand what's wrong with pioneer... i think it looks ok, "modern", and kind of streamlined because it blends with the upward look of the taller buildings next to it. coming from someone who doesnt really know much about architecture. the pictures of the old facade look dated to me. i dont know. sorry. i just dont find what makes it appealing to restore to. if it looks like chase bank then it might be worth it, though.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

The Pioneer is fine and if I owned the Cadence and saw these post, I'd leave Tucson ASAP. It's not a bad looking building. Besides we are beggars. We can not be choosers. Yes we do have some standards (no twin Pima Federal Building) but if the design is not bad still build it. So what if it's not the best thing you've seen. These people and companies invested their time and money downtown and that's something that nobody seems to do anymore. An example of this is Wilshire Grand in LA. To me the building is mild and I don't appreciate the fact that the designer thinks that we need to see giant advertisements displayed on a tall building.. I'm not too crazy about the look and a building like the US Bank building needs it's surpasser to leave a legacy as good as it did but in my opinion the Wilshire Grand is not that good. But sometimes that attitude is harmful. In a case like this it's better to go with it.

If I were a developer and saw this kind of reaction to my projects, I would take a better look at the teams I was working with, the quality of my materials and what current trends are. If people like us, with no financial stake in these buildings, feel this way, I would fear that my potential tenants and/or customers would feel similarly, potentially harming the viability of my property.

Nothing being said has been out of line or inappropriate; this is a discussion forum for urban design and development and critiquing the standards of a city's architecture is more than fair game.

[omarainza]

what ever happened to this proposal? does it still have a chance of getting built? the century tower, i rememeber reading about it when i was a kid in middle school