Danish tourists lament Canadian car culture

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

I whole heartedly agree. Outside of NYC which, after all, is NYC, the US public transit friendless can truly stink.

I would rank the most auto dedicated countries something like this:

1. The US
2. Saudi Arabia (they now are working hard to improve public transit).
3. New Zealand
4. Australia
5. Canada
6. Argentina
7. Brazil (Sao Paulo being the exception)

___________

A better comparison would be between Denmark, and, the Greater Golden Horseshoe (~33,500 sq km or about 13,000 sq miles) with a population of 8.76 million.

Denmark has an area of 43,094 square km or 16,663 sq mi, with a population of 5.6 million.

Courtesy of Wikipedia

In terms of passenger vehicles per capita, the US and Canada aren't even in the top 10.
http://www.carmudi.pk/journal/owns-c...car-ownership/

and a more extensive analysis The Atlantic

Western European's love driving, many in the larger cities just have the option of not having to drive.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

In terms of passenger vehicles per capita, the US and Canada aren't even in the top 10.
http://www.carmudi.pk/journal/owns-c...car-ownership/

and a more extensive analysis The Atlantic

Western European's love driving, many in the larger cities just have the option of not having to drive.

Per capita is not the key. What they are taking about is auto-dependency which while functionally similar, as a yard stick itself, is not sufficient.

You also have to add trucks to the mix.

http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/079...A_08222011.pdf pg 16

Wikipedia "List of countries by vehicles per capita" (editorialized in parenthetical expressions).

Top ten as of 2010.

1. San Marino (tiny, winy place, like a small town)
2. Monaco (money, money, and a tiny place)
3. US
4. Liechtenstein (another money rich tiny place.)
5. Iceland (350k and you had better have a car in the winter when the wind is blowing.
6. Luxembourg (perhaps the size of Rhode Island. Another place to launder money)
7. Australia
8. New Zealand
9. Malta (tiny place. Vehicles almost drive around in circles).
10. Italy
11. Guam (tiny island)
12. Puerto Rico (small island, US territory)
13. Greece (no wonder their finances are precarious)
14. Finland (Outside of Helinski with its fine public transit, a great deal of room and "brisk winders."
15. Canada.

I am surprised on Canada.

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Per capita is not the key. What they are taking about is auto-dependency which while functionally similar, as a yard stick itself, is not sufficient.

You also have to add trucks to the mix.

http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/079...A_08222011.pdf pg 16

Wikipedia "List of countries by vehicles per capita" (editorialized in parenthetical expressions).

Top ten as of 2010.

1. San Marino (tiny, winy place, like a small town)
2. Monaco (money, money, and a tiny place)
3. US
4. Liechtenstein (another money rich tiny place.)
5. Iceland (350k and you had better have a car in the winter when the wind is blowing.
6. Luxembourg (perhaps the size of Rhode Island. Another place to launder money)
7. Australia
8. New Zealand
9. Malta (tiny place. Vehicles almost drive around in circles).
10. Italy
11. Guam (tiny island)
12. Puerto Rico (small island, US territory)
13. Greece (no wonder their finances are precarious)
14. Finland (Outside of Helinski with its fine public transit, a great deal of room and "brisk winders."
15. Canada.

I am surprised on Canada.

I would think that passenger cars per capita is a very good, although not perfect, gauge of auto dependency. Discounting trucks allows you to remove transport of goods from the mix. Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium to a lesser extent are exceptions in Western Europe in that their size and flat terrain allow for exceptional bicycle infrastructure. Combine that with functional trains across a relatively small area and car dependency diminishes significantly. And even though a backpacker might get around the continent using trains, and public transit people still use cars in large numbers. I'd guess that the vehicle miles traveled per person are fewer than in North America, but it's incredibly disingenuous to ignore the per capita numbers and the fact that Europeans still get in their cars and drive to Ikea, Carrefour and El Corte Inglés for weekend shopping trips.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

While not a fan of sprawl, these Danes need to have their asses kicked, preferably by bicycle chain, just so the violence is green and sustainable.

Exactely why do they need to have their asses kicked?

And what do you care anyway what a couple of Danish tourist think of car culture in Canada (wording their opinion in the nicest way possible)?

Originally Posted by ue

Halifax is one of the most walkable cities on the continent. Everything there is so delightfully human-scaled. Of course, that's the one city they brush over for opinions in the open letter.

They don't brush over it at all, they specifically mention Halifax as having a lot of surface parking on prime locations in the city center. It says a lot that you think that it is one of the most walkable cities on the continent when people from a real walkable place seem to think otherwise.

It seems like these Danes were going to the Markhams and Levis' of our cities and then critiquing the hell out of them.

No it doesn't seem like that at all. They specifically mention the cities they visited; Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa and Halifax.

And yes, I realize even their suburbs are on average better than ours, but Denmark is a small country with smaller cities and built up its civilization well before automobiles existed. North America is largely post-war by comparison. With that in mind, we do alright.

Only Toronto is bigger than Copenhagen. Montreal is almost the exact same size as Copenhagen-Malmo. Vancouver is more or less equivalent for Copenhagen singular but every other Candian city is at most half the size of the Danish capital. So yeah, Canada has "bigger" cities than Denmark, but you only have one that is bigger than the Danish city.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Exactely why do they need to have their asses kicked?

Obviously I wasn't serious, but the point is that these Danes wrote an unbelievably stupid article.

Are we to believe that they were completely unaware that North America might be a bit more auto-oriented and a bit less bike-oriented than Denmark of all places? I mean, really?

That would be like North Americans going to Europe and expressing utter shock at the presence of older buildings, or extensive transit, or pedestrian oriented city centers. It would betray a complete ignorance about basic differences between countries.

I mean, imagine if these Danes visited Atlanta or Dallas. If they think Toronto is a freeway oriented cartopia (even though Toronto has like three freeways) they would just drop dead right there in shock.

[alchemist redux]

- ‘Trying to solve traffic problems by building more roads is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger trousers.’ Ottawa

The jig is up! Most Canadians - certainly most Ontarians - would never use the word 'trousers'. I think these are made up statements.

And what do you care anyway what a couple of Danish tourist think of car culture in Canada (wording their opinion in the nicest way possible)?

It's because it was delivered in the most condescending way: an 'open letter'. Who does that except self-satisfied people who want to draw attention to themselves by shaming others?

For reasons - many of which are not attributable to their own efforts - Scandinavian countries enjoy the best overall standards of living on earth. Generally, when you find yourself at the very top of any list, you should retreat to humility and downplay your achievements, rather than rubbing them in. Scandinavians can't afford to be smug.

[SHiRO]

Forget it...too much to respond to in this thread already.

I am surprised by the amount of defensive/insecure reactions, only a couple of people seem to get the points the letter writer (who is originally from the UK btw) was trying to make, granted including a certain amount of hyperbole.

Really now, it's not like every article ever on this forum about Denmark (and the rest of Europe) didn't contain a lot more hyperbole and plain untruths coupled with the often vile reactions from (Canadian and American) forumers here.

But a relatively mild open letter from a tourist provokes these kinds of reactions? I don't see any smugness, only mentions of "an incredible adventure" and "wonderfull people". She doesn't even mention or compare "how things are back home". She doesn't write anything about "Canadians" except that she met a lot of wonderfull people. We wouldn't have known this was written by a Brit living in Denmark if she hadn't mentioned it herself. She quotes Canadians!
This was published in a Canadian publication by a Canadian (possibly with an agenda/cause)! Her letter was directed at politicians!

And a bit hilarious are the Americans here being all offended by what a (British) Dane has to say about Canada. The same Americans who have made much worse comments about Canada on this forum themselves btw

As for the open letter itself... I do find it strange that all the cars, traffic and parking lots made such an impression on this person that she just had to write a letter about it. Perhaps she has other reasons for caring... My time in the US was also largely spend driving/in traffic/in parking lots or motels/surrounded by fast food chains (duh we were on a roadtrip) but that's not what I remember of it. And off course Canada is a clean, healthy and sustainable first world country.

[alchemist redux]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Forget it...too much to respond to in this thread already.

I am surprised by the amount of defensive/insecure reactions, only a couple of people seem to get the points the letter writer (who is originally from the UK btw) was trying to make, granted including a certain amount of hyperbole.

Really now, it's not like every article ever on this forum about Denmark (and the rest of Europe) didn't contain a lot more hyperbole and plain untruths coupled with the often vile reactions from (Canadian and American) forumers here.

For starters, your point would only be relevant if people writing in this thread have written hyperbolic, reactionary posts condemning Denmark. I haven't. I'm not sure about the others, but my guess is that they haven't, either.

Secondly, there's a difference between posting to a forum and getting an open letter published in a major newspaper. The least important thing is that the forum will probably be read by a far smaller, but also far more focused constituency. The more important thing is that a forum is a portal to debate. If I posted something on a forum, somebody else can chime in with a rebuttal. The first point is important because, if somebody was to rebut, the focus of the forum would ensure that the rebuttal would at least contain some kernels of experience or know-how.

Usually, 'open letters' are only written by people with personal, often political, reasons for doing so. I suppose for this young woman, the personal, political purpose is the satisfaction of having her voice heard. I don't think she actually believes that her letter will actually change over 100 years of transportation policy and trillions of dollars in sunk capital investments and a way of life...unless she's very naive.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by alchemist redux

For starters, your point would only be relevant if people writing in this thread have written hyperbolic, reactionary posts condemning Denmark. I haven't. I'm not sure about the others, but my guess is that they haven't, either.

Believe me, they have. You must experience this forum entirely different than I do. And than all the Danes on here too...oh wait...

Secondly, there's a difference between posting to a forum and getting an open letter published in a major newspaper.

The articles posted on this forum usually come from even more major newspapers like the WSJ and the NYT.

If I posted something on a forum, somebody else can chime in with a rebuttal. The first point is important because, if somebody was to rebut, the focus of the forum would ensure that the rebuttal would at least contain some kernels of experience or know-how.

Not if there isn't anyone to offer a rebuttal...

Usually, 'open letters' are only written by people with personal, often political, reasons for doing so. I suppose for this young woman, the personal, political purpose is the satisfaction of having her voice heard. I don't think she actually believes that her letter will actually change over 100 years of transportation policy and trillions of dollars in sunk capital investments and a way of life...unless she's very naive.

Look, I don't see why you and others are getting so worked up about. Her letter really REALLY wasn't even that bad. The reactions to it in this thread are way worse, especially the uncalled for attacks on Denmark (or even Scandinavia), considering this was written by a Canadian, quoting a Brit living in Denmark (who in turn quotes Canadians, or at least claims to). But "Scandinavians" can't afford to be smug, right?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

because Danes generally have much more difficulty affording cars

And Denmark actually has quite high car ownership

Which is it?

I know what it is..., more Crawford wisdom!

I mean, the closest big city to Denmark (Hamburg) has a big (surface!) parking lot right outside the main train station, and highways circling the city center. My God, the poor Danes!

The closest big city to Denmark is Copenhagen. It's actually in it!

And what parking lot outside Hamburg Hbf? What highways circulating the city center? HH doesn't even have a ringroad! Are you refering to your alternative universe Germany again?

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

6. Luxembourg (perhaps the size of Rhode Island. Another place to launder money)

This is an outdated stereotype. Luxembourg is a member of the EU and therefore has to abide by the same rules all other EU members have to abide by.

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

the fact that Europeans still get in their cars and drive to Ikea, Carrefour and El Corte Inglés for weekend shopping trips.

El Corte Inglés are inner city department stores. Carrefour isn't all hypermarkets either, in fact by far most stores (in Europe) are supermarkets and convenience stores. And noone said you can't have the occasional big box store in the right location. What you don't see Europeans doing is getting into their cars to get drive through coffee.

[M II A II R II K]

One good thing about suburban arterials in a sea of asphalt is it's at least good for cycling given that there's a lot of extra space on the road, no parked cars, easy to dodge busses, and longer stretches between intersections to stop less frequently.

Bike infrastructure is needed more for narrower old city setups where everyone has to compete for and share the limited space.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

I am surprised by the amount of defensive/insecure reactions, only a couple of people seem to get the points the letter writer was trying to make.

As for the open letter itself... I do find it strange that all the cars, traffic and parking lots made such an impression on this person that she just had to write a letter about it.

I don't think anyone disagrees that every North American city needs to be less dependent on cars, we all get the point, so I don't think anybody is being defensive. What I wonder about is the motive for writing an open letter to the country about the obvious differences between Europe and Canada. Like you said, it is strange.

[SHiRO]

It was not (just) an open letter to the country, it was directed at policy makers like Jim Watson and Rob Ford. But I agree, why would someone in Denmark care enough to write that letter, there might be some other connection? Or, it also seems that Marie-Danielle Smith from the Ottawa Citizen is making more of it than it was intended by the writer. The article mentions that she was reluctant to comment to the newspaper.

I'm not sure everyone read beyond the headline and the letter itself as quoted by Mark.

[SHiRO]

btw the comments below the article in question (via Facebook comment system) are a lot more balanced and understanding, which is unusual because mostly Facebook brings out the morons even when it's not as anonymous.

The writer of the letter is even responding herself:
https://www.facebook.com/hchabowski

I did have to chuckle at the woman suggesting they should have rented a car and drove out of the cities to the parks (which they btw did as was mentioned in the article).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Which is it?

I know what it is..., more Crawford wisdom!

I have no idea what you're even claiming here.

You would argue that Danes are all starving to death because food is much more expensive in Denmark than in other first world countries?

Just because cars cost more doesn't mean Danes don't buy cars. Relative costs and relative consumption don't necessarily follow exact transnational parallels, and Denmark has relatively high car ownership, despite the high costs.

Originally Posted by SHiRO

The closest big city to Denmark is Copenhagen. It's actually in it!

Not worthy of a response...

Originally Posted by SHiRO

And what parking lot outside Hamburg Hbf? What highways circulating the city center? HH doesn't even have a ringroad! Are you refering to your alternative universe Germany again?

And this is the classic Shiro response "You don't live in Germany, therefore you cannot comment on Germany" (why this business rule doesn't apply to you is anyone's guess).

But if you need to know, yes, there is a train station surface lot outside Hamburg HBF, yes, there are modern ring roads around Hamburg Centrum (and many Germany city centers, due to postwar reconstruction), no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm sure whenever Danes exit Hamburg HBF they all pass out in shock seeing such odd sites, but it's true. No need to travel to N. America to see parking lots or autocentric planning.

[JoeMusashi]

Of course a European would go on vacation and concern themselves with cars, mass transit, & childhood obesity. I hope to do the same next year when I go to Europe.

'Why no Escalades, Durangos with Calvin pissing on a Ford logo, or Hummers?'
'I was surprised that I couldn't purchase ammo for my assault rifle'
'I wanted to visit the baseball stadium/evangelical church but I couldn't find it'
'I was so thirsty and wanted a Faygo. No dice'
'I wish they had Chick Fil A here in this small Alpine village'

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And this is the classic Shiro response "You don't live in Germany, therefore you cannot comment on Germany" (why this business rule doesn't apply to you is anyone's guess).

That's not what I claimed at all, but in your case it (again!) proves true. And why this does not apply to me is because I don't make outlandish claims about things I CANNOT possibly know/have an valid opinion on. I do not concern myself with store opening hours in Oregon or the quality of bread in Quebec City (no all of Canada and the US and Mexico too for good measure!).

You on the other hand keep doing this, now with Hamburg. I decided to try to call you out on it for a week or so, because ignoring it doesn't help. Turns out consistently calling you out doesn't help either so I'm going back to ignoring. Well, at least I've shown others just how much bullshit your posts contain on a weekly basis and how this might be annoying for others (we clashed in 4-5 different threads now in as many days haven't we?)

But if you need to know, yes, there is a train station surface lot outside Hamburg HBF, yes, there are modern ring roads around Hamburg Centrum (and many Germany city centers, due to postwar reconstruction), no, you have no idea what you're talking about.

No there is not a big surface lot just outside Hamburg Hbf. In fact there isn't a big surface lot anywhere near the Hamburg city center. Common Crawford, I've been there they didn't tear down the structures to make place for a parking lot! And it's not like everyone here can't just look at Google Earth.

And no there are no highways (European: motorways, German: Autobahnen) circling the Hamburg city center. Not one, and certainly not multiple ones as you claim. In fact Hamburg doesn't even have a ring road like some European cities have, it has several motorways going past the city center, mostly in the N-S direction. Again, something easily verifiable by LOOKING AT A MAP!

I'm sure whenever Danes exit Hamburg HBF they all pass out in shock seeing such odd sites, but it's true. No need to travel to N. America to see parking lots or autocentric planning.

Please provide us with a screenshot of a satellite pic of central Hamburg and encircle in red what you think is a big surface lot. Mark the multitute of highways circling the city center while you are at it...

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

El Corte Inglés are inner city department stores. Carrefour isn't all hypermarkets either, in fact by far most stores (in Europe) are supermarkets and convenience stores. And noone said you can't have the occasional big box store in the right location. What you don't see Europeans doing is getting into their cars to get drive through coffee.

Not all El Corte Ingles are in city centers, but it was called out because it's the first large European Dept. store I thought of. The point of my post was that while most European cities are certainly more compact and pedestrian/bicycle friendly than most of North America, once you get into a car and leave the city centers things don't seem that different between the two continents. Rush hours are horrible and lots of shopping/hypermarkets/whatever is located in autocentric suburbs. The big difference is the percentage of people who live in center cities in Europe vs. North America.

There's nothing like a great European road trip to dispel the notion that we (North Americans) somehow love cars more than Europeans. What Europe seems to excel at is not making the car a priority as surface lots are rarer in a major city centers, and living in the city center means that you don't have to drive. But the major highways, suburbs and ownership rates show that Europeans love cars just as much.

So, I'm not bashing the Briton by way of Denmark, I'm just saying that they are ignoring the beam in their own eye and being a bit myopic.

[logan5]

I found this Copenhagenize Index for bicycle friendly cities, and Montreal (one of the cities the Danes visited) ranks #11 in the world, ahead of Hamburg, Paris, and Barcelona. Tied with Munich. Vancouver is pretty close to Montreal as far as cycling infrastructure goes, so Canada is not doing as bad as some may think.
http://copenhagenize.eu/index/2013/P...Index_2013.pdf