CHICAGO | General Developments

[Mr Downtown]

Yeah, I have trouble crying for Greater Little Rock. St. James, on the other hand, or St. John of God . . .

Indeed, we're approaching something of a crisis with big Rust Belt churches as attendance declines. The Archdiocese of Atlanta was considering moving a huge old church from Buffalo complete, and of course St. John of God and St. Peter Canisius are being grafted together up in Old Mill Creek.

Catholic institutions in Chicago have been bouyed by Latino migration, but that will level off soon. In Europe, the government supports largely empty churches as part of the national patrimony, but we can't do that in the US.

[ardecila]

I don't see why we can't use public dollars if the church is de-consecrated and adaptively reused. The St Boniface competition showed some creative ways forward.

[Mr Downtown]

^Yes, but nearly all of the losses come in communities that have no market for new condos—or anything else. Even at the edge of the South Loop, it would be hard to justify spending $20 million to turn St. James into 30 apartments.

[Rizzo]

I've lost hope in saving alot of those churches. There isn't anything much you can do to sell it to another congregation or renovate them into community centers. They are expensive and complex building to heat, maintain, and repair. Heck, I saw one church somewhere having damaged stone blocks removed and repaired with CMU because it was all they could afford.

I support the deconstruction of churches to have valuable building components removed and reused elsewhere, even if it's not in the city. The other alternative is the wrecking ball so there really isn't much of a local preservation option.

I once thought about consolidation of congregations into larger and more beautiful churches instead of a hodgepodge of storefront churches. But the answer to that is folks in smaller congregations liked being independent in smaller spaces of worship and the proximity to their home. Problem was it's still an unsustainable position when even a couple members move or their landlord bails. The lifespan of a storefront church isn't long at all. I tend to think sharing resources would be more effective. Even if that means walking or driving a bit further to a larger facility.

[the urban politician]

The real issue for Chicago here is the relatively low property values as a proportion to the cost of renovation/construction. In hypergentrified neighborhoods on the north side you don't have as much of a problem. But too much of the city just doesn't attract any real private investment.

Much of the south and west sides have just surrendered themselves as hopeful recepients of investment by altruistic social service agencies. So if some tax exempt or Government agency isn't willing to put up the funds to build or renovate property (almost always at break even or a loss), you have no chance of seeing vacant land get developed.

Since dropping the cost of labor and materials doesn't seem likely to ever happen (that's a different discussion), the only hope is to see land & property values rise. When will that ever happen for much of Chicago?

I'm in a similar quandary right now. I bought a vacant 6 flat in Pilsen (although it may potentially be an 8 flat based on zoning review) and am ready to renovate it. But the project is going to be expensive, and the cost of property in Pilsen may not be high enough to justify the investment from private lenders. So I either have to go to one of those social service non-for-profit type lenders, or put up more of my own cash.

Times are REALLY tough these days. Chicago has so much potential but it's really got itself into a nasty rut, and I'm just not sure how it's going to get itself out of it...

[Via Chicago]

^
And beyond all of that, churches were simply overbuilt in the last couple hundred years. There was a time when Chicago could support all of these houses of worship. Your identity used to be defined by what parish you were from...when people asked where you were from you didnt name a neighborhood, you said "such and such parish". And those were further defined by ethnicity. You had this massive influx of devout European immigrants putting down their own individual stakes. Those days are never coming back.

[the urban politician]

..

[harryc]

Construction on the old Tribune building ( 12-17 )

[harryc]

Nov 16


(Yes that is marble)




Very defensive by the time I spoke w them, they didn't like the idea, and apparently many others did not as well.


Better than real !




Tourbillon is a SWATCH store, their site is here - drop them a note.

[harryc]

[harryc]

I rally like what they did here - found my new downtown store for everyting.


Capitols (?) restored.

[ardecila]

That Tourbillon thing is ridiculous. They did all that for what... So they could get some vitrines by the entrance?

[J_M_Tungsten]

Great photos all around harry.

[Wheelingman04]

I wish the city would put more of its weight into trying to redevelop and revitalize areas on the south and west sides. I know these are very vast areas but it seems like the city doesn't care much or maybe the city is so large it's hard to keep up with everything. I don't know that for sure but quality revitalization in Bronzeville could help create a major corridor(and neighborhood) from Hyde Park/Kenwood to the South Loop if done right! And redevelopment of the area around the United Center and feed out along that corridor(Madison) toward the loop and to the west.Obviously Austin is a very rough area so that make take decades to clean up. Other areas on the South Side further from the loop may not ever really come back but who knows. Chicago covers such a large land area.

[the urban politician]

^ As I mentioned earlier, that is done by either lowering the cost to develop land, or by raising property values.

That's pretty much it. I'm not sure how, in this economy and real estate market, "the city" (ie the Mayor and 50 Aldermen) could possible achieve this.

"The city" is remarkably capable of destroying urban fabric, but lousy and ineffective at rebuilding it.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by Wheelingman04

I wish the city would put more of its weight into trying to redevelop and revitalize areas on the south and west sides. I know these are very vast areas but it seems like the city doesn't care much or maybe the city is so large it's hard to keep up with everything. I don't know that for sure but quality revitalization in Bronzeville could help create a major corridor(and neighborhood) from Hyde Park/Kenwood to the South Loop if done right! And redevelopment of the area around the United Center and feed out along that corridor(Madison) toward the loop and to the west.Obviously Austin is a very rough area so that make take decades to clean up. Other areas on the South Side further from the loop may not ever really come back but who knows. Chicago covers such a large land area.

I think the city needs to get a handle on fighting crime in those areas before considering silver bullet redevelopment projects. Any sort of redevelopment you'd see in the meantime would be institutional in nature. New schools, community centers, police and fire, senior housing, etc

Cities are also not all that adept at abrupt / invasive redevelopment strategies intended to produce sudden change. Private individuals and businesses have had more luck, for example Dan Gilbert purchasing downtown Detroit and sinking tons of money to instantaneously renovate and occupy space with business and residents.

Chicago's south and west sides will grow by either immigrants, gentrification creep or magical return of manufacturing and warehousing that kept these neighborhoods traditionally strong. The important thing is to keep these neighborhoods affordable and safe so city residents don't head for the suburbs.

But despite moving to Chicago during a horrible economic recession, I personally witnessed improvements moving south and west in just a couple years. I could dig through older photos from 2008 of boarded up commercial strips that are now filled with restaurants, bars, and stores. But the opposite could be said for single family homes that took a huge hit. And the south and west sides are filled with plenty of bank controlled properties in disrepair.

[Rizzo]

Forgot to mention I was riding down Damen and saw two projects getting close to completion:

That unfinished building at Race and Damen is now done. It had been very badly vandalized from sitting vacant, but it's been all fixed up and looks really nice.

There's also some rowhomes that were built on what I think used to be a parking lot, but I can't remember the street crossing.

I have some stills from the handlebar cam footage, but my host server is on the fritz so I'll have to upload later.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Hayward

I think the city needs to get a handle on fighting crime in those areas before considering silver bullet redevelopment projects. Any sort of redevelopment you'd see in the meantime would be institutional in nature. New schools, community centers, police and fire, senior housing, etc

Cities are also not all that adept at abrupt / invasive redevelopment strategies intended to produce sudden change. Private individuals and businesses have had more luck, for example Dan Gilbert purchasing downtown Detroit and sinking tons of money to instantaneously renovate and occupy space with business and residents.

Chicago's south and west sides will grow by either immigrants, gentrification creep or magical return of manufacturing and warehousing that kept these neighborhoods traditionally strong. The important thing is to keep these neighborhoods affordable and safe so city residents don't head for the suburbs.

But despite moving to Chicago during a horrible economic recession, I personally witnessed improvements moving south and west in just a couple years. I could dig through older photos from 2008 of boarded up commercial strips that are now filled with restaurants, bars, and stores. But the opposite could be said for single family homes that took a huge hit. And the south and west sides are filled with plenty of bank controlled properties in disrepair.

^ I would love to have more of a discussion of this, although such a discussion would probably monopolize this thread. I actually view the sad state of much of Chicago's south and west sides as being the single biggest barrier to Chicago joining the "great" cities of the world such as Paris, London, NYC, etc. Right now Chicago certainly belongs in the platform of global cities, but this terrible blight in those areas continues to cast doubt for many observers, and rightfully so.

I want to respond to your last paragraph here. I am very happy to hear that there are some geniune, positive changes being observed. I don't spend enough time to see any of the progress, and to be honest I tend to avoid the south and west sides because I get depressed whenever I'm in those areas. If you have any pictures documenting what you're seeing, I'm sure many of us would like to see those.

Also, there really is no reason why much of the south side can't be a perfect place for new immigrants, but for the crime and gangs. There are plenty of hispanics and Asians who are living on the far southwest side (near Midway), and Asians are continuing to colonize the near southwest side (near Chinatown, Bridgeport). In the above mentioned 6 (or 7, or 8) unit building that I own in Pilsen, a friendly homeless guy who used to squat in the building told me that he often would see young Asian people asking him if there are any apartments available in the building (I'm surprised that they would be asking a homeless squatter this question, but whatever...).

Clearly there is demand there. The housing stock, especially in Bronzeville, is just sitting there, ripe for this kind of new influx of residents, it just needs renovation and good marketing. One thing I think the city could do is a 10 year property tax freeze for any individual who renovates properties in certain blighted areas. But what DOESN'T need to happen is for the person to then be forced to market their apartment/home/condo to people below a certain income threshold. When the city does that they almost insure that an area will remain economically depressed and hopeless for another generation.

I have heard that there are some programs like this available, but when one inquires about them it seems to a) involve a lot of paperwork, and b) have too many strings attached as I mentioned above. I have inquired in the past and it is often difficult to speak to the people involved. The city really should make an effort to GREASE the wheels for private investment in these areas, instead of bogging people down with more demands and expectations.

Sorry for the long post.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

I actually view the sad state of much of Chicago's south and west sides as being the single biggest barrier to Chicago joining the "great" cities of the world such as Paris, London, NYC, etc. Right now Chicago certainly belongs in the platform of global cities, but this terrible blight in those areas continues to cast doubt for many observers, and rightfully so.

Chicago is not - nor will it ever be - /joining/ the "great" cities you mention for a whole host of reasons that has nothing to do with the plight of the south and west sides of town. . . the constant comparisons and lamenting of what's wrong with Chicago is tiresome, petty and ultimately a useless waste of time. . .

. . .

[Wheelingman04]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ I would love to have more of a discussion of this, although such a discussion would probably monopolize this thread. I actually view the sad state of much of Chicago's south and west sides as being the single biggest barrier to Chicago joining the "great" cities of the world such as Paris, London, NYC, etc. Right now Chicago certainly belongs in the platform of global cities, but this terrible blight in those areas continues to cast doubt for many observers, and rightfully so.

I want to respond to your last paragraph here. I am very happy to hear that there are some geniune, positive changes being observed. I don't spend enough time to see any of the progress, and to be honest I tend to avoid the south and west sides because I get depressed whenever I'm in those areas. If you have any pictures documenting what you're seeing, I'm sure many of us would like to see those.

Also, there really is no reason why much of the south side can't be a perfect place for new immigrants, but for the crime and gangs. There are plenty of hispanics and Asians who are living on the far southwest side (near Midway), and Asians are continuing to colonize the near southwest side (near Chinatown, Bridgeport). In the above mentioned 6 (or 7, or 8) unit building that I own in Pilsen, a friendly homeless guy who used to squat in the building told me that he often would see young Asian people asking him if there are any apartments available in the building (I'm surprised that they would be asking a homeless squatter this question, but whatever...).

Clearly there is demand there. The housing stock, especially in Bronzeville, is just sitting there, ripe for this kind of new influx of residents, it just needs renovation and good marketing. One thing I think the city could do is a 10 year property tax freeze for any individual who renovates properties in certain blighted areas. But what DOESN'T need to happen is for the person to then be forced to market their apartment/home/condo to people below a certain income threshold. When the city does that they almost insure that an area will remain economically depressed and hopeless for another generation.

I have heard that there are some programs like this available, but when one inquires about them it seems to a) involve a lot of paperwork, and b) have too many strings attached as I mentioned above. I have inquired in the past and it is often difficult to speak to the people involved. The city really should make an effort to GREASE the wheels for private investment in these areas, instead of bogging people down with more demands and expectations.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks guys for all the information and insight into this issue. It is important to me because it does take Chicago down a notch from other global cities and is holding back the city from truly being great. Chicago is a great city and it is my favorite. I lived there for a little while and had to leave do to health problems.Tackling the crime and blight issue in these sections of town and getting more investment to turn these sections of town around and with more immigration we could say we are proud and love all sides of Chicago.