Do you think the homeless situation in west coast cities will ever get better?

[l3g0]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Progressives, say this along with me:

Homelessness that you can see has VERY LITTLE to do with housing. Period.

1. If a homeless person can't afford housing in SF, move. They are in the best position on Earth to move. They can panhandle for a few days for a greyhound ticket to Mississippi.

2. Most homeless aren't visable. They are on a friend or family member's couch. We aren't talking about them...

3. Drugs are a huge issue, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to deal with it. The Right just wants to arrest and the Left talks a good game but their results are pretty much null.

4. Mental issues. Again, the Left talks a good game but zero will happen until these people can be put into a psych ward for an extended amount of time. The Left HATES this idea, and I get it. But what else are you going to do?

Drug users and mentally unstable people aren't gonna change based on you giving them a studio apartment. It might make you feel good, but it doesn't change the dynamics in a city much.

So will the west coast or basically any large city in America deal with this issue? No.

Uh, number 4. The RIGHT hates it, not the left.

Hell, cant put your voting base in the nut house.

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Progressives, say this along with me:

Homelessness that you can see has VERY LITTLE to do with housing. Period.

1. If a homeless person can't afford housing in SF, move. They are in the best position on Earth to move. They can panhandle for a few days for a greyhound ticket to Mississippi.

LOL. and then what? like they're just a few dollars short of SF rent? if they could just get to MS they'd be able to move right into a cozy little studio apt? just jump on a bus? simple as that?

oh my god...

[Crawford]

It is true that homelessness has basically nothing to do with lack of housing. That's a consequence, not a defining trait.

NYC has guaranteed shelter, on demand, due to a crazy judge's ruling from 30 years ago. We have teams of city workers scouring the city, every night, trying to get people into free city-managed apartments. We still have homeless, albeit nothing like the West Coast.

[pj3000]

Pay smart people to solve the problem.

And they will if you offer a lot of money, but they only receive the big payment if their results are effective.

That's how we solve problems we actually care about.

[bossabreezes]

I would expect that it will probably continue to get worse for the foreseeable future.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

This was my first time this year (12 month period) that I've seen this in the city. It's annoying, going downtown is pointless. You'll just get harassed non-stop because there's no one else around to bother but you.

I've only been downtown a handful of times over the past year, but I haven't been hassled by any aggressive panhandlers on any of my visits.

But that's probably because, thanks to covid quarantine, I now look like an aggressive panhandlers myself.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Pay smart people to solve the problem.

And they will if you offer a lot of money, but they only receive the big payment if their results are effective.

That's how we solve problems we actually care about.

ha ha yeah man, there is nothing more all american than throwing money at a problem to make it go away!

well since reagan closed the lunatic asylums and gave us this now long standing chronic homeless problem maybe its time to modernize and reopen them? they don't have to be horror hotels, they can be modern mental health campuses with work/stay and step down sections. families, advocates, laws and judges would need to get on board with using them appropriately of course. i dk if that is a step in the right direction, but its an actionable idea, especially if we are talking about throwing money around.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

ha ha yeah man, there is nothing more all american than throwing money at a problem to make it go away!

well since reagan closed the lunatic asylums and gave us this now long standing chronic homeless problem maybe its time to modernize and reopen them? they don't have to be horror hotels, they can be modern mental health campuses with work/stay and step down sections. families, advocates, laws and judges would need to get on board with using them appropriately of course. i dk if that is a step in the right direction, but its an actionable idea, especially if we are talking about throwing money around.

It's not about throwing money at the problem at all. It's about incentivizing finding a solution to the problem.

Again, that's what we do when we... first, actually perceive something as a problem, and then second, care to solve it. We just did it on a global scale with multiple, highly-effective covid-19 vaccines developed in less than 1 year's time. There is major money in it for companies... but only if they succeed... that's exactly why competitors partnered with each other to develop them.



And I fully agree that, with reforms/modernizations, that the former model of contained and largely self-sufficient, residential state mental institutions is a viable solution. And likely far cheaper to society than the alternative.

[photoLith]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I've only been downtown a handful of times over the past year, but I haven't been hassled by any aggressive panhandlers on any of my visits.

But that's probably because, thanks to covid quarantine, I now look like an aggressive panhandlers myself.

Dang dude, are you trying out to be in a reboot of Sons of Anarchy? I wouldn’t panhandle you, that’s for sure.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL

LOL. and then what? like they're just a few dollars short of SF rent? if they could just get to MS they'd be able to move right into a cozy little studio apt? just jump on a bus? simple as that?

oh my god...

Its called a job bud. They can get a min wage job and actually afford a place to stay.

I know in SF having a low wage job and not being homeless is a novel idea, but it can be done in many parts of America.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It's not about throwing money at the problem at all. It's about incentivizing finding a solution to the problem.

Again, that's what we do when we... first, actually perceive something as a problem, and then second, care to solve it. We just did it on a global scale with multiple, highly-effective covid-19 vaccines developed in less than 1 year's time. There is major money in it for companies... but only if they succeed... that's exactly why competitors partnered with each other to develop them.



And I fully agree that, with reforms/modernizations, that the former model of contained and largely self-sufficient, residential state mental institutions is a viable solution. And likely far cheaper to society than the alternative.

ha ha, well, yes it is. saying it's about incentivizing finding a solution to the problem is just a polite way of saying money will fix it.

especially because incentivizing is completely not necessary. mh management has grown in leaps and bounds since reagan. what to do is clear.

so the issues are the money to do it ... and more importantly the will. after all, we are talking about legally restricting some people's rights here, not so easy to agree to.

[twister244]

A lot of good responses, but this problem can basically be distilled down to this:

If you don't like the behavior, elect new local leaders to change the policy since what you have no is clearly not working.

The right won't want to throw more money at the problem and the left thinks involuntary admissions to get help is somehow cruel.

Until you solve those two above things, the problem won't go away.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by twister244

A lot of good responses, but this problem can basically be distilled down to this:

If you don't like the behavior, elect new local leaders to change the policy since what you have no is clearly not working.

The right won't want to throw more money at the problem and the left thinks involuntary admissions to get help is somehow cruel.

Until you solve those two above things, the problem won't go away.

yep, and those two things have been in stasis since reagan.

actually i think the homeless problem would have to get a lot worse to break the log jam.

on a national level anyway.

ie., in ny state you have a right to shelter. in texas you are living under the bridge.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by photoLith

Dang dude, are you trying out to be in a reboot of Sons of Anarchy? I wouldn’t panhandle you, that’s for sure.

LOL! i wish.....


back at new years a friend started a text chain to post selfies that summed up our feelings about 2020.

that lovely little glamour shot was my entry.

but it's true, i'm looking supremely unkempt these days. the scowl, of course, is situational.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It's not about throwing money at the problem at all. It's about incentivizing finding a solution to the problem.

Again, that's what we do when we... first, actually perceive something as a problem, and then second, care to solve it. We just did it on a global scale with multiple, highly-effective covid-19 vaccines developed in less than 1 year's time. There is major money in it for companies... but only if they succeed... that's exactly why competitors partnered with each other to develop them.



And I fully agree that, with reforms/modernizations, that the former model of contained and largely self-sufficient, residential state mental institutions is a viable solution. And likely far cheaper to society than the alternative.

The problem for me (at least as a government employee who works in social services) is trying to find the right balance of government and private funding/investment and not turning it into some kind of for-profit racket that drains not only the government's bank accounts in tax cuts and subsidies, but also the clients they're supposed to ostensibly serve. I've seen that happen way more than I should.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I've only been downtown a handful of times over the past year, but I haven't been hassled by any aggressive panhandlers on any of my visits.

But that's probably because, thanks to covid quarantine, I now look like an aggressive panhandlers myself.

I also haven't cut my hair in almost a year, I can probably pull off a similar look . Out of curiosity, do people ask you if you have a lighter routinely when you're walking around? I can't figure out why people always ask me, other than I have beard...

Back to the topic, there are certainly panhandlers downtown, but they're hardly aggressive. Usually someone sitting outside Popeye's or Target asking for food or socks.

Now, around Roosevelt/Canal might be a different story, since that's quite close to the biggest shelter in the city (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8624...7i16384!8i8192)

There are some tent cities in Chicago, but obviously most of the population sleeps in shelters at least some of the time. Public lockers would probably alleviate much of the problem, although easier said than done.

Anyway, obviously the major problem (just as in prisons) is insufficient/inaccessible mental health treatment. I have some personal experience with this and getting decent mental health treatment is difficult even for white-collar professionals with caddical insurance plans. In Chicago, from what I understand, there are basically two high-quality in-patient psychiatry wards (Northwestern and Rush), and they have relatively low capacity. There are others that are fine, if not great (e.g. St. Joseph's), and there are some that you probably definitely don't want to go to if you can help it (Chicago Lakeshore).

Obviously long-term psychiatric commitment is a different ball-game, but I doubt there is significant capacity anywhere, so I don't see how involuntary short-to-medium term commitment can be a solution. After all, mental health care is very expensive and the people who need it most won't have the great insurance policies to pay for it (do any long-term treatment centers take medicaid patients?). The cheapest I see quoted for long-term mental health care is something like $300/day. Good luck getting society to pay for that. The joke (which is not really a joke but actually true) is that Cook County Jail is the primary mental health facility for Chicago, but obviously this is not a quality mental health care setting and it's still expensive (>$100/day).

"People don't want to get treatment" is an argument people sometimes use, but it's not like it's even a realistic option for most people on the streets. Basically it's the streets or jail. And of course, most people who have mentally health issues feel that way some of the time, but rarely all of the time (at least, if the level of mental health care is something above being locked in a cage in a straightjacket). Anyway, all states have ways to get people involuntarily committed, although there is certainly some discussion to be had about what the right level of difficulty is for this to curb abuses/maintain trust.

[photoLith]

My god, I was looking around LA on google streetview as theyve recently updated some of their images and its absolutely astonishing how many people are just passed out on sidewalks and how many tents there are absolutely everywhere.

I couldnt imagine living in an apartment that costs 3 grand a month and out front theres tent cities and passed out drug addicts at your door all over the place. Probably smells like shit too.

Same thing when you look at SF in many places.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by photoLith

My god, I was looking around LA on google streetview as theyve recently updated some of their images and its absolutely astonishing how many people are just passed out on sidewalks and how many tents there are absolutely everywhere.

I couldnt imagine living in an apartment that costs 3 grand a month and out front theres tent cities and passed out drug addicts at your door all over the place. Probably smells like shit too.

Same thing when you look at SF in many places.

^ Sounds a bit like cherry picking.

I just did my own streetview of downtown LA and it looked pretty "clean" to me

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I also haven't cut my hair in almost a year, I can probably pull off a similar look . Out of curiosity, do people ask you if you have a lighter routinely when you're walking around? I can't figure out why people always ask me, other than I have beard...

Back to the topic, there are certainly panhandlers downtown, but they're hardly aggressive. Usually someone sitting outside Popeye's or Target asking for food or socks.

Now, around Roosevelt/Canal might be a different story, since that's quite close to the biggest shelter in the city (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8624...7i16384!8i8192)

There are some tent cities in Chicago, but obviously most of the population sleeps in shelters at least some of the time. Public lockers would probably alleviate much of the problem, although easier said than done.

Anyway, obviously the major problem (just as in prisons) is insufficient/inaccessible mental health treatment. I have some personal experience with this and getting decent mental health treatment is difficult even for white-collar professionals with caddical insurance plans. In Chicago, from what I understand, there are basically two high-quality in-patient psychiatry wards (Northwestern and Rush), and they have relatively low capacity. There are others that are fine, if not great (e.g. St. Joseph's), and there are some that you probably definitely don't want to go to if you can help it (Chicago Lakeshore).

Obviously long-term psychiatric commitment is a different ball-game, but I doubt there is significant capacity anywhere, so I don't see how involuntary short-to-medium term commitment can be a solution. After all, mental health care is very expensive and the people who need it most won't have the great insurance policies to pay for it (do any long-term treatment centers take medicaid patients?). The cheapest I see quoted for long-term mental health care is something like $300/day. Good luck getting society to pay for that. The joke (which is not really a joke but actually true) is that Cook County Jail is the primary mental health facility for Chicago, but obviously this is not a quality mental health care setting and it's still expensive (>$100/day).

"People don't want to get treatment" is an argument people sometimes use, but it's not like it's even a realistic option for most people on the streets. Basically it's the streets or jail. And of course, most people who have mentally health issues feel that way some of the time, but rarely all of the time (at least, if the level of mental health care is something above being locked in a cage in a straightjacket). Anyway, all states have ways to get people involuntarily committed, although there is certainly some discussion to be had about what the right level of difficulty is for this to curb abuses/maintain trust.

I trust your analysis that capacity is an issue. However, I think Americans could come together to help those with major mental issues. The money is more than worth it, by many angles.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by photoLith

My god, I was looking around LA on google streetview as theyve recently updated some of their images and its absolutely astonishing how many people are just passed out on sidewalks and how many tents there are absolutely everywhere.

I couldnt imagine living in an apartment that costs 3 grand a month and out front theres tent cities and passed out drug addicts at your door all over the place. Probably smells like shit too.

Same thing when you look at SF in many places.

• Video Link