Is it time for Ontario to be split up into new Provinces?

[blacktrojan3921]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The capital would have to be a city, even if it's a small one. Capital cities exist for a reason; the capital is a lot more than just the legislature. The bureaucracy alone would number in the tens of thousands, plus everything that supports it. Manitoba for example has about 18,000 provincial government employees. Obviously not all of those are in the capital, but towns like Geraldton and Chapleau are way too small. Even the territories have capitals bigger than that.

If a site like Geraldton were chosen it would have to be expanded so much that it would basically be a brand new city. Realistically, the capital would probably be in a city that already has a significant number of government employees.


It's an interesting discussion (although it'll never happen), but I'd say if the province is to be split up it should be divided four ways:

-Northern Ontario
-GTA
-Eastern Ontario
-Western Ontario

In most of the world big cities like Toronto have their own provinces so making making the GTA its own province makes sense. But then the areas east and west of the city would be too disconnected from each other, so I'd split them up as well.

Well, if it's alright you can send me your name and email, so that you can be a sponsor of the petition :o

[Truenorth00]

What's needed aren't new provinces, but a new level of actually strong regional government. And by region, I don't mean Prince Edward or Bruce County governments. I mean regional governments in the European sense. All the places that would provinces on their own? Should have regional governments that largely handled all the things that county governments do today and more.

Why, for example, does the GTA need so many police forces, transit authorities, utilities, etc? Amalgamation is of course, a bad word in Ontario. But I don't see how we can talk about creating new provinces, without first dealing with how sub-provincial governments are managed. And we're utterly terrible at sub-provincial governance. Municipal governments aren't cut out to discuss complex transit issues. Those should be regional matters, as with all transportation plans. And they should have regional funding mechanisms to pay for all that.

Lastly, there's no way the rest of Canada accepts 4 new provinces, of which at least two will be have-nots. And that's before we talk about how to apportion power like Senate seats.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's needed aren't new provinces, but a new level of actually strong regional government. And by region, I don't mean Prince Edward or Bruce County governments. I mean regional governments in the European sense. All the places that would provinces on their own? Should have regional governments that largely handled all the things that county governments do today and more.

Why, for example, does the GTA need so many police forces, transit authorities, utilities, etc? Amalgamation is of course, a bad word in Ontario. But I don't see how we can talk about creating new provinces, without first dealing with how sub-provincial governments are managed. And we're utterly terrible at sub-provincial governance. Municipal governments aren't cut out to discuss complex transit issues. Those should be regional matters, as with all transportation plans. And they should have regional funding mechanisms to pay for all that.

Lastly, there's no way the rest of Canada accepts 4 new provinces, of which at least two will be have-nots. And that's before we talk about how to apportion power like Senate seats.

Which 2 will be have nots?

I now for a fact that the mineral and timber resources of Northern Ontario would make it a have province.

[1overcosc]

Northern Ontario would definitely be a have-not. Southwestern Ontario would probably be a have-not too. GTA and Eastern Ontario would definitely be haves.

Ontario as a whole is already back to being have; just not established in fact yet because the lag built into the equalization formula.

[Loco101]

I like the idea of stronger regional governments. I find many municipalities here in the Northeast are very weak and don't work together very well. I'd love for Timmins to join together with Black River-Matheson, Iroquois Falls and Cochrane as a regional government.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Northern Ontario would definitely be a have-not. Southwestern Ontario would probably be a have-not too. GTA and Eastern Ontario would definitely be haves.

Ontario as a whole is already back to being have; just not established in fact yet because the lag built into the equalization formula.

Please explain.

As I see it, with the:
Diamond mines
Gold mines
Silver mines
Copper mines
Nickel mines
Cobalt mines
Lithium mines
Uranium mines
Platinum mines
Palladium mines
Zinc mines
Lead mines
Iron Ore mines

And then we have all the forestry products.

Northern Ontario built the TSX. Without the mining, the TSX would never have existed.

You really need to do your homework on the North.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Please explain.

You really need to do your homework on the North.

Yes, but Northern Ontario adds nothing of value to those products. We dig them out of the ground and sell them to people, that's it. The real value is making something out of the resources. Paper is of relatively low value, however, the ideas printed on paper (science/engineering/whatnot) is where the money's at. Base metals are relatively valueless, the assembled products that we use are hugely more valuable to society.

To claim in the past we 'built' something (whether it be the TSX or whatnot) and are owed a debt of some sort is ludicrous. Northern Ontario got 'paid' for the resources it sent elsewhere. All the infrastructure built by the province - highways, hospitals, universities and schools has been 'paid for' by the resources developed here.

The things Northern Ontario has are relatively low-value (aside from gold). They can be sourced from any other number of locations in the world. A commodity boom might make the region a "have" province, but that's the whim of global markets, less so any intrinsic properties of the materials. There is minimal value added industry here - that's where the real wealth lies - and that's why the north will tend to lag the south and remain a 'have not' area.

[Loco101]

Actually there are a number of minerals that can't be sources from many other places. But I get your point about Northern Ontario being about primary resources and not high-tech and manufacturing. There are no major cities and markets so the primary goods get transported to somewhere else.

I do feel that Northern Ontario was not often properly paid for resources that were extracted from here. Today, I see many trucks of raw logs being trucked to Quebec. Lumber companies pay the province to cut but create few jobs in Ontario and almost no benefits to the Northeast. Ontario allows mining concentrate to leave and be processed in Quebec. Quebec never allows its unprocessed wood or minerals to come into Ontario.

[swimmer_spe]

If we had proper laws, we could make the finished products here. We would be able to send the ingots or even the final product that is made from the minerals. Alas, we are weak in that regulation.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Which 2 will be have nots?

I now for a fact that the mineral and timber resources of Northern Ontario would make it a have province.

If Northern Ontario was going to be sustainable, it would be the case presently. They aren't. And independence is not going to change that overnight. Especially, if aren't getting the financial support of Queen's Park anymore.

I'm on the fence with Southwestern Ontario. Their deindustrialization over the last couple of years has left them hollowed out. I'm not sure they won't end up a have-not post separation.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If we had proper laws, we could make the finished products here. We would be able to send the ingots or even the final product that is made from the minerals. Alas, we are weak in that regulation.

It's not regulation. It's a lack of a business case. You could ban removal of unprocessed resources from Norther Ontario. All that would happen is that resource investors would invest elsewhere.

People need to understand how economics and private sector investment works.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Actually there are a number of minerals that can't be sources from many other places. But I get your point about Northern Ontario being about primary resources and not high-tech and manufacturing. There are no major cities and markets so the primary goods get transported to somewhere else.

I do feel that Northern Ontario was not often properly paid for resources that were extracted from here. Today, I see many trucks of raw logs being trucked to Quebec. Lumber companies pay the province to cut but create few jobs in Ontario and almost no benefits to the Northeast. Ontario allows mining concentrate to leave and be processed in Quebec. Quebec never allows its unprocessed wood or minerals to come into Ontario.

I guess I'm of the opinion that I don't see Northern Ontario and Ontario as two different places. To be honest, as long as the goods are processed in Canada (or another industrialized country), I'm actually quite content. If they're shipped to undesirable places overseas, I have objections, certainly.

The regionalism that certain governments espouse is one of the major irritants in federal-provincial-regional relations. To have regions that claim that they want to process the goods they produce regardless of the economics of whether that works or not or they'll "take their resources and go home" kind of attitude is really shortsighted and detrimental. Imagine if Alberta mandated that all the gasoline that was produced in this country had to be refined in Alberta. The mind boggles at the logistical challenge.

As for Northern Ontario being 'paid', I think we have had some fine things laid upon our table by the province and the federal government. It seems the crowd that advocates separation never seems content with what we've received. We have many brand new hospitals and many, many, many smaller (and uncrowded!) smaller hospitals. We've got universities in cities far smaller than in the south. I don't think Barrie has its own independent university, despite being close in size to Sudbury. We disproportionately benefit from government employment at both the federal and provincial level as a matter of policy. There are a number of incentives and tax credits for living in the north (Northern Ontario Energy Credit, or half-price car registration, anyone?).

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If Northern Ontario was going to be sustainable, it would be the case presently. They aren't. And independence is not going to change that overnight. Especially, if aren't getting the financial support of Queen's Park anymore.

I'm on the fence with Southwestern Ontario. Their deindustrialization over the last couple of years has left them hollowed out. I'm not sure they won't end up a have-not post separation.

Southwestern Ontario is booming and is still a manufacturing powerhouse, it would definately be a "have province". Windsor's unemployment rate is only 4.9%, population growth is strong and the city's economy is expected to grow faster than any Canadian city after Toronto this year, according to the Conference Board of Canada. Sorry, but Your "hollowed out" statement is extremely outdated!

http://windsorstar.com/news/local-ne...o-4-9-per-cent

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If Northern Ontario was going to be sustainable, it would be the case presently. They aren't. And independence is not going to change that overnight. Especially, if aren't getting the financial support of Queen's Park anymore.

I'm on the fence with Southwestern Ontario. Their deindustrialization over the last couple of years has left them hollowed out. I'm not sure they won't end up a have-not post separation.

That is because all the money collected up here goes to Queens Park and then they decide where it goes. If the province had to spend the money locally to where they collected it, we would see a much different province. Toronto and Southern Ontario would have less hospitals, schools and highways.

I guess we will never really know till something like that happens.

Originally Posted by wave46

I guess I'm of the opinion that I don't see Northern Ontario and Ontario as two different places. To be honest, as long as the goods are processed in Canada (or another industrialized country), I'm actually quite content. If they're shipped to undesirable places overseas, I have objections, certainly.

The regionalism that certain governments espouse is one of the major irritants in federal-provincial-regional relations. To have regions that claim that they want to process the goods they produce regardless of the economics of whether that works or not or they'll "take their resources and go home" kind of attitude is really shortsighted and detrimental. Imagine if Alberta mandated that all the gasoline that was produced in this country had to be refined in Alberta. The mind boggles at the logistical challenge.

As for Northern Ontario being 'paid', I think we have had some fine things laid upon our table by the province and the federal government. It seems the crowd that advocates separation never seems content with what we've received. We have many brand new hospitals and many, many, many smaller (and uncrowded!) smaller hospitals. We've got universities in cities far smaller than in the south. I don't think Barrie has its own independent university, despite being close in size to Sudbury. We disproportionately benefit from government employment at both the federal and provincial level as a matter of policy. There are a number of incentives and tax credits for living in the north (Northern Ontario Energy Credit, or half-price car registration, anyone?).

That is just it, the raw ore or the raw logs are shipped to China. Doesn't make sense.

It is about a stable economy and not seeing young people have to leave because there are no jobs.
Why should we allow the rush to the bottom to happen?

We have schools closing, jobs cut, beds closing at hospitals, crumbling roads and bridges, higher hydro prices.... What fine things do we have?

I would be willing to pay full price for the sticker on my truck and snow machine if it meant I got good services.

Stop giving the north handouts, and instead, give the north what it has earned. We slaved to get that rock to the surface or those logs to the trucks, let us keep that money HERE!

But no provincial government wants to do that, or they loose votes in the south.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is just it, the raw ore or the raw logs are shipped to China. Doesn't make sense.

It is about a stable economy and not seeing young people have to leave because there are no jobs.
Why should we allow the rush to the bottom to happen?

We have schools closing, jobs cut, beds closing at hospitals, crumbling roads and bridges, higher hydro prices.... What fine things do we have?

I would be willing to pay full price for the sticker on my truck and snow machine if it meant I got good services.

Stop giving the north handouts, and instead, give the north what it has earned. We slaved to get that rock to the surface or those logs to the trucks, let us keep that money HERE!

But no provincial government wants to do that, or they loose votes in the south.

As for China, we agree. I'm most certainly opposed to aiding the economy of a totalitarian state. Admitting China to the WTO in 1998 was a terrible idea.

Things we have received in the north in the past 30 years:

4 lane highway 11 to North Bay
Commitment to 4 lane highway 69 to Sudbury (est cost ~$2 billion)
4 laning commitment of 11-17 between Thunder Bay and Nipigon

New hospitals in:
North Bay (2011)
Sudbury (expansion of Laurentian site, 2010)
Sault Ste. Marie (2008?)
Thunder Bay (2004)
Timmins (oldest of the major northern hospitals - 1992)

Universities:
Algoma University (2012)
Nipissing University (1992)
Northern Ontario School of Medicine
School of Law at Lakehead University (2011?)
Architecture School @ Laurentian University (2014)

What more can you reasonably ask for? Hydro prices are screwing everyone - just ask the manufacturing industry - that's not targeted at the north in particular. Schools are closing as enrollment is declining across Ontario - half full schools are a big waste of money.

When I look over the Northern Ontario Party manifesto, I'm reminded of 1995 and the Parti Quebecois. The PQ promised that only by leaving Canada would Quebec finally thrive free of the yoke of Canada. When you analyzed things closer, though, the ideas fell apart under the scrutiny.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

As for China, we agree. I'm most certainly opposed to aiding the economy of a totalitarian state. Admitting China to the WTO in 1998 was a terrible idea.

Things we have received in the north in the past 30 years:

4 lane highway 11 to North Bay
Commitment to 4 lane highway 69 to Sudbury (est cost ~$2 billion)
4 laning commitment of 11-17 between Thunder Bay and Nipigon

New hospitals in:
North Bay (2011)
Sudbury (expansion of Laurentian site, 2010)
Sault Ste. Marie (2008?)
Thunder Bay (2004)
Timmins (oldest of the major northern hospitals - 1992)

Universities:
Algoma University (2012)
Nipissing University (1992)
Northern Ontario School of Medicine
School of Law at Lakehead University (2011?)
Architecture School @ Laurentian University (2014)

What more can you reasonably ask for? Hydro prices are screwing everyone - just ask the manufacturing industry - that's not targeted at the north in particular. Schools are closing as enrollment is declining across Ontario - half full schools are a big waste of money.

When I look over the Northern Ontario Party manifesto, I'm reminded of 1995 and the Parti Quebecois. The PQ promised that only by leaving Canada would Quebec finally thrive free of the yoke of Canada. When you analyzed things closer, though, the ideas fell apart under the scrutiny.

Great, we have nee buildings. But we do not have the funding to use them to their full potential.

http://www.nugget.ca/2017/03/16/prem...-health-centre

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbur...math-1.3792997

These are just 2 examples of the mess.

GM and Chrysler have been bailed out, yet Essar in the Soo have been refused.

Again, it is a north vs south.

Wynne has bee throwing money around in the last year only because the NOP have been gaining strength and members.

Separation from Canada is much different than dividing the province in 2(or more). The reality is, in many provinces, the major city(ies) seem to only reap the rewards. If the money was better spread out, then maybe there wouldn't be the desire to go at it alone.

And, police or MNRF will not shoot a bear if it comes into the city, such as Sudbury, but what happened just a few days in Scarborough?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Great, we have nee buildings. But we do not have the funding to use them to their full potential.

http://www.nugget.ca/2017/03/16/prem...-health-centre

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbur...math-1.3792997

These are just 2 examples of the mess.

GM and Chrysler have been bailed out, yet Essar in the Soo have been refused.

Again, it is a north vs south.

Wynne has bee throwing money around in the last year only because the NOP have been gaining strength and members.

Separation from Canada is much different than dividing the province in 2(or more). The reality is, in many provinces, the major city(ies) seem to only reap the rewards. If the money was better spread out, then maybe there wouldn't be the desire to go at it alone.

And, police or MNRF will not shoot a bear if it comes into the city, such as Sudbury, but what happened just a few days in Scarborough?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Or maybe learn about the issues, and fix the inequalities.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not regulation. It's a lack of a business case. You could ban removal of unprocessed resources from Norther Ontario. All that would happen is that resource investors would invest elsewhere.

People need to understand how economics and private sector investment works.

Some of it might move elsewhere, true. But look at Quebec where fewer mills, smelters and jobs have been lost yet the province has stricter protectionist laws. But having lower energy costs helps. If Northern Ontario had its own electricity grid it would have lower costs as well.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Great, we have nee buildings. But we do not have the funding to use them to their full potential.

http://www.nugget.ca/2017/03/16/prem...-health-centre

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbur...math-1.3792997

These are just 2 examples of the mess.

GM and Chrysler have been bailed out, yet Essar in the Soo have been refused.

Again, it is a north vs south.

Wynne has bee throwing money around in the last year only because the NOP have been gaining strength and members.

Separation from Canada is much different than dividing the province in 2(or more). The reality is, in many provinces, the major city(ies) seem to only reap the rewards. If the money was better spread out, then maybe there wouldn't be the desire to go at it alone.

And, police or MNRF will not shoot a bear if it comes into the city, such as Sudbury, but what happened just a few days in Scarborough?

We've had MANY bears in Timmins in all urban areas including downtown. We can't rely on police or the MNRF. They often don't respond at all and will actually tell callers to stop bothering them. We can only hope that a neighbour will shoot the bear and haul it off without law enforcement knowing about it.

The NOP is kind of a joke right now but if the party had better leadership it would get a lot more support.