Renting in Canada

[manny_santos]

As we all know, renting a residential property/unit in Canada is a challenge, particularly in markets like Toronto and Vancouver.

I am in the process of fighting a property management company in Toronto that may have committed fraud against me, and I am also in the process of getting the media involved. Long story short, this property management company took my money and then told me they wanted a guarantor before they'd approve the application. The requirements for the guarantor were so onerous that not one person I know would either qualify or were willing to participate. The application contract I signed - which was not a lease - stated that the deposit would be returned to the applicant if the application were not approved. The application was never approved as I never fully completed it, nor was I able to secure a guarantor as was asked for verbally after I submitted the forms. The requirement was never disclosed in the paperwork.

I cancelled the application as a result and signed elsewhere. However this company - a numbered company incorporated in Ontario - is holding onto my deposit until such time as they find another tenant for the unit in question, and who knows how long that might take (though in Toronto it may not be that long). A real estate agent I have been in contact with believes this is fraud.

I have been in contact with CTV over this matter and a news story might be exposing this company in the coming days. My lawyer says he's never seen a situation like this before. In the meantime, has anyone else been screwed over by a property management firm like this? What would you recommend? A challenge for me is that I lack family locally and don't know anyone in Toronto proper at this time.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

As we all know, renting a residential property/unit in Canada is a challenge, particularly in markets like Toronto and Vancouver.

I am in the process of fighting a property management company in Toronto that may have committed fraud against me, and I am also in the process of getting the media involved. Long story short, this property management company took my money and then told me they wanted a guarantor before they'd approve the application. The requirements for the guarantor were so onerous that not one person I know would either qualify or were willing to participate. The application contract I signed - which was not a lease - stated that the deposit would be returned to the applicant if the application were not approved. The application was never approved as I never fully completed it, nor was I able to secure a guarantor as was asked for verbally after I submitted the forms. The requirement was never disclosed in the paperwork.

I cancelled the application as a result and signed elsewhere. However this company - a numbered company incorporated in Ontario - is holding onto my deposit until such time as they find another tenant for the unit in question, and who knows how long that might take (though in Toronto it may not be that long). A real estate agent I have been in contact with believes this is fraud.

I have been in contact with CTV over this matter and a news story might be exposing this company in the coming days. My lawyer says he's never seen a situation like this before. In the meantime, has anyone else been screwed over by a property management firm like this? What would you recommend? A challenge for me is that I lack family locally and don't know anyone in Toronto proper at this time.

These things are usually pretty straightforward. Does your lawyer believe you have a strong case? If so, you're probably in good shape. Getting good legal counsel (a trustworthy lawyer, not expensive for a small claims matter) is the most important thing. If you're comfortable with yours then nothing to worry about, from what little you've presented here you sound fine. Is the property management company aware you're taking legal steps? If so, that's usually enough for them to back off. Best of luck.

[Klazu]

Being a tenant as well, I have seen all sorts of sleazy and suspicious landlords and rental agents here in Vancouver. I hope you win your case and get your money back soon (with some added compensation).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In the meantime, has anyone else been screwed over by a property management firm like this?

I know several... from experience, there are plenty of awful property management firms out there.

In one documented case (of a Sherbrooke management firm), they charged the guy (who works and lives in Quebec City, so he's not around -- he sees the bills, not the building) for repairs to an unit they didn't even do.

[1overcosc]

In Kingston, when people ask me for help finding a place, I always tell them to avoid:
1) Any listing from a management firm
2) Any listing by a guy whose surname is Lam (notorious slum lord family here)

I find from experience that major RE firms/development companies are the best landlords.

[Trevor3]

I rented from Killam Properties in Fredericton. They're probably single largest landlord in Atlantic Canada with units in all the major cities in the region, as well as southern Ontario and Calgary.

After moving out in April, they went ahead and withdrew another $750 for rent for the month of May and failed to return my damage deposit citing that I had failed to give notice that I was moving out. Basically I had $1400 tied up in this company even though I gave 2 months notice and had back and forth dialogue with them about potentially renting another unit. It took until the end of May for them to finally admit their mistake and return my $750 and a further month on top of that to get my damage deposit back.

I can't wait to be a homeowner - that way I can be flat broke but at least have an asset to call my own.

[flar]

In Ontario, you give them first and last month's rent. Everything else is bullshit, so don't do it.

They also owe you interest on the last month's rent when you give your two months notice to leave.

[middeljohn]

To build on what flar said, in Ontario it is ILLEGAL for a landlord to charge a cleaning/damage deposit. Only first and last and capped amount for keys. I believe there's a max fine of $25,000 for landlords who do that but many still do because most renters don't know any better.

[Klazu]

There is a new Vancouver-based website that allows tenants AND landlords rate each other. Not sure if good or bad...

https://www.apartmint.ca/

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by middeljohn

To build on what flar said, in Ontario it is ILLEGAL for a landlord to charge a cleaning/damage deposit. Only first and last and capped amount for keys. I believe there's a max fine of $25,000 for landlords who do that but many still do because most renters don't know any better.

Ontario landlords are notorious for violating laws.

Other common things landlords do in Ontario that are illegal:
1) Require tenants to pay with postdated cheques
2) Restrict/ban tenants from having pets in their units
3) Restricting same-day guests

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario landlords are notorious for violating laws.

Other common things landlords do in Ontario that are illegal:
1) Require tenants to pay with postdated cheques
2) Restrict/ban tenants from having pets in their units
3) Restricting same-day guests

This is why I'm a fan of big government and bureaucracy - it is needed to protect the public. Our government in Ontario has failed to protect tenants from sleazebag landlords and have given landlords too many rights.

The good news is, I might have this company cornered. It so happens that my company has a relationship with this property management company, and my company has taken up my case and are going to intervene.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by middeljohn

To build on what flar said, in Ontario it is ILLEGAL for a landlord to charge a cleaning/damage deposit. Only first and last and capped amount for keys.

In Quebec it's illegal to charge ANY deposit. (i.e. all you can do is collect what's currently due as the monthly rent for the month we're in; you can't ever "hold" one red cent belonging to the tenant for any reason.)

Which FWIW is a big reason why I haven't been too keen on continuing to invest there (be it on buying new buildings or on improvements/upkeep for my current ones) and in the long run I'm not even sure that I won't sell off the Sherbrooke portfolio eventually. It's kinda annoying to be so powerless in the landlord/tenant relationship, especially after you've tasted other jurisdictions where it's not the case.

It's frankly ridiculous to not have the right to charge at least some deposit.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by lio45

In Quebec it's illegal to charge ANY deposit. (i.e. all you can do is collect what's currently due as the monthly rent for the month we're in; you can't ever "hold" one red cent belonging to the tenant for any reason.)

Which FWIW is a big reason why I haven't been too keen on continuing to invest there (be it on buying new buildings or on improvements/upkeep for my current ones) and in the long run I'm not even sure that I won't sell off the Sherbrooke portfolio eventually. It's kinda annoying to be so powerless in the landlord/tenant relationship, especially after you've tasted other jurisdictions where it's not the case.

It's frankly ridiculous to not have the right to charge at least some deposit.

I have no problem with deposits, but I can see where the Quebec government is coming from. It would protect people like me from getting screwed over.

My opinion, if a landlord doesn't like the rules in a jurisdiction, they should either comply or don't bother operating. If they're worried about default, then their rental rates should reflect that.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I have no problem with deposits, but I can see where the Quebec government is coming from. It would protect people like me from getting screwed over.

My opinion, if a landlord doesn't like the rules in a jurisdiction, they should either comply or don't bother operating. If they're worried about default, then their rental rates should reflect that.

In practice what happens is that on the lower side of the market you get a lot of slumlords who don't want to put much money in their buildings, since the next tenant is likely to trash it and you'll be powerless to get repaid when that happens.

The tenant-friendly rules also make it harder for poor people to rent anything that's not slummy, because landlords are going to be a lot more wary of them.

I don't mind bringing units up to high standards if I know I'll be getting a deposit from any future tenant...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I have no problem with deposits, but I can see where the Quebec government is coming from. It would protect people like me from getting screwed over.

FYI, you're not yet "screwed over".

"Screwer over" would be that your story ends with an Ontario court ruling in favor of the management company, against you. (i.e. dismisses your case.)

From what you've said so far, you're not going to get screwed over.

[1ajs]

if i had to pay a month upfront and last months i would be homeles right now.......... :/ was for a couple days a week ago due to a city evicition on the building i was living in......

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

This is why I'm a fan of big government and bureaucracy - it is needed to protect the public. Our government in Ontario has failed to protect tenants from sleazebag landlords and have given landlords too many rights.

The good news is, I might have this company cornered. It so happens that my company has a relationship with this property management company, and my company has taken up my case and are going to intervene.

The Ontario government has plenty of laws and resources in place to protect tenants from abuse by landlords... the problem is that too few tenants are aware of their rights so landlords ignore them.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

This is why I'm a fan of big government and bureaucracy - it is needed to protect the public. Our government in Ontario has failed to protect tenants from sleazebag landlords and have given landlords too many rights.
.

I agree with you 100%. However I feel that Ontario is VERY much in the favour of tenants and it shows. Just look at some of the horror stories of rentals in the US on reddit and Ontario looks like a paradise.

I (and former roommates) have taken a past landlord to the Landlord and Tenant Board and it did Not turn out in their favour at all. It took a few months but we had the evidence and it worked out for us completely.

[kool maudit]

In Copenhagen, the rents are at Toronto levels if not somewhat higher and landlords can legally ask for six months up front on a one-year lease (three months prepaid plus three months as a deposit). It makes you miss Canada, and certainly Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

In Copenhagen, the rents are at Toronto levels if not somewhat higher and landlords can legally ask for six months up front on a one-year lease (three months prepaid plus three months as a deposit). It makes you miss Canada, and certainly Montreal.

Holy cow!