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  #241  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2011, 4:52 PM
Jasonhouse Jasonhouse is offline
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Thats because people in Vancouver have become spoiled with trains arriving every 90 seconds on the Expo Line during peak hours. But I agree, frequent service is a major component in mass transit, but what you are missing out is that the Canada Line and indeed all of Vancouver's skytrain system has 2 huge advantages over all these new LRTs in the US, 100% GRADE SEPARATION and automated rolling stock.

Street grade LRTs are great for feeder / secondary routes, but they are terrible for urban trunk routes. True trunk routes need 100% grade separation or their own surface ROW akin to a heavy rail (think JR or Hankyu in Japan).
This is why I'm ultimately glad my home town of Tampa's recent LRT initiative failed. The plan sucked anyways, because it was being implemented by people good at buses, not trains. The 5 mile ride from DT to the airport would have been like 26 minutes, and from the university to the airport was like a 12 mile run and would have taken 51 minutes or something crazy like that. A pro distance runner could probably make that time on foot!
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  #242  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2011, 6:28 PM
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Service must be very frequent if it is too get people out of their cars.
I can't imagine waiting 15 minutes in non-peak times for "rapid" transit. Frequency greatly improves the ridership levels and makes it a convient alternative.
I'd rather be on a decent BRT system running every 5 minutes all day then having to waiting 15 minutes because I just missed the bus.
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  #243  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2011, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I can't imagine waiting 15 minutes in non-peak times for "rapid" transit. Frequency greatly improves the ridership levels and makes it a convient alternative.

That kind of waiting is better for Commuter Rail with schedules so one can arrange to show up at the platform to catch the train when it comes. Maybe also for an LRT ride to go a long distance that doesn't have too many stops.

The San Diego trolley runs at 15 minutes in non peak periods.
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  #244  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2011, 1:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Service must be very frequent if it is too get people out of their cars.
I can't imagine waiting 15 minutes in non-peak times for "rapid" transit. Frequency greatly improves the ridership levels and makes it a convient alternative.
I'd rather be on a decent BRT system running every 5 minutes all day then having to waiting 15 minutes because I just missed the bus.
If it’s any consolation, maximum wait time ≠ average wait time.

And it usually isn’t the case, in North America, that bus frequency will be greater than light rail frequency due to lower vehicle capacity. Typically the improvements planned for BRT are less than those planned for LRT—often there are compromises in terms of right of way, signal priority, stations, and of course service levels, so you might end up with an improved bus service that runs every fifteen minutes in lieu of a train that runs fifteen minutes, instead of a bus with the same capacity as a train.

A bus every five minutes has higher operating costs more due to the increased need for drivers, and when you don’t half-ass BRT it can approach LRT-like prices—the Hartford-New Britain busway’s being built as something like $50 million per mile, IIRC.
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  #245  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2011, 7:05 PM
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$1B rapid transit line suggested for Victoria


Apr 26, 2011

Read More: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...t.html?ref=rss

Quote:
Greater Victoria residents will soon be asked if they want to spend close to $1 billion on a light rapid transit line. The capital's transportation planners are recommending the construction of an LRT line running between downtown Victoria and the suburbs of Colwood and Langford. The planners argue that expanding public transit by buying more buses isn't sustainable, given projected population growth and limited road space. The LRT would take five years to build and could increase property taxes by an average $260 per household. Despite the potential price shock, B.C. Transit President Manuel Achadinha believes it will be supported — and notes that the plan wasn't created in isolation.

"This isn't been led by transit," Achadinha said. "This has been holding hands with the Capital Regional District, with the province, and really looking at this region and saying, 'What does the future look like, and what does the public want it to look like.'" Planners acknowledge that light rapid transit has the highest up-front costs, compared to an investment in more buses and dedicated bus lanes. However, LRT has the lowest long-term operating costs, meets provincial goals for greenhouse gas reductions and would be the fastest way to get to and from downtown, according to Achadinha.

....



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  #246  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2011, 7:24 PM
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^ that would be a good improvement for Victoria. Frankly, I was shocked that Victoria has freeways that go like 3 miles. Its like a mini-metro.
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  #247  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2011, 7:27 PM
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I ran across this article in yesterdays Minneapolis Star Tribune. It seems relevent to the discussion.

Quote:
Little engine that saves money
Article by: PAT DOYLE , Star Tribune
Updated: June 13, 2011 - 7:19 AM

Its route and lower labor costs help keep expenses for the Hiawatha light rail at about two-thirds that of buses.

There were more seats than riders on this trip of the Hiawatha Line during a recent morning rush hour, but the train has still been less costly to operate than most light-rail lines in the nation.

Once derided as a "train to nowhere," the Hiawatha light-rail line is more popular than predicted. It carries enough riders over 12 miles that it is cheaper to run than metro buses.

The cost of operating the Hiawatha between Bloomington and downtown Minneapolis is about half that of Metro Transit buses in the Twin Cities, according to comparisons by the federal government. The Hiawatha also is less expensive to operate than most other light-rail lines in the nation.

The Hiawatha is less costly per passenger mile because its short route reaches places very much on the map for Twin Cities residents and visitors.

"You've got work in downtown, you've got the airport and then you have the mall," said Linda Cherrington, manager of transit research for the Texas Transportation Institute, a department of Texas A&M University with a national scope.

The operating expenses don't include the upfront costs of laying rail and buying light-rail cars -- or the costs of buying buses and their share of road construction and maintenance costs.

But the relative expense of operating the systems provides useful comparisons as lawmakers consider expanding light rail to the southwest suburbs.

The Hiawatha Line costs about 51 cents per passenger mile to operate, while Metro Transit buses cost about 88 cents, according to the National Transit Database (NTD), a division of the Federal Transit Administration.
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/123722719.html
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  #248  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2011, 3:33 AM
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I suspect that we are exiting the age with the most 'paperwork' per inch of public transportation built in US history.

Looking at commodities, energy costs, population numbers, debt, aging infrastructure, etc., the US will have to plan, discuss, reformulate, and, build energy efficient people transporters cheaply (i.e., quickly in large measure).

If you reduce light rail car weight by narrowing the guage to 1 meter (the Japanese narrow guage would be nice), if you use world established standards of collapse zones to reduce weight still more, if you construct 24x7, the economics would point even stronger to light rail.If you have eminent domain laws where land owners would be paid the average of the last 2 or 3 years property assessment values, ROW could be acquired both cheaper and quicker. If you 'sweeten the deal' with pieces of property near stations and give owners the right to develope these properties, more private money would become involved (you would have to insure that the property added could not be seperated from operating the rail service, of course. Businesses can get nasty that way. )

Of course, try like mad to have high plaform stations and high platform light rail cars because many millions are getting old, steps stink, and long ramps to doors that have to be opened by the train engineer is very inefficient (besides adding to the engineer's problem of whom has to get off where).
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  #249  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 12:57 AM
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Could any of you see Light Rail in the following cities?
  • Richmond
  • Albany
  • Hartford
  • San Antonio
  • Jacksonville
  • Indianapolis
  • Columbus
  • El Paso
  • Memphis
  • Tucson
  • Albuquerque
  • Oklahoma City
  • Milwaukee
  • Louisville
  • Fresno
  • Kansas City
  • Mesa
  • Atlanta
  • Colorado Springs
  • Omaha
  • Tampa
  • Raleigh
  • Wichita
  • Bakersfield
  • Tulsa
  • Oakland
  • Aurora
  • Santa Ana
  • Miami
  • Rochester

If so, which ones? And where would you run the single line or multiple lines?
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  #250  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 3:24 AM
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^ Well in Miami the Baylink project connecting downtown Miami to Miami Beach is supposed to be light rail running down the median of the McCarthur Causeway. There are proposals for it circulate South Beach. Here is a map of the proposed routes:

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  #251  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 3:50 AM
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My problem with Light Rail is this: it is sort of misleading. I remember reading an article about a man in Los Angeles who took Metro to get to the airport. On the map, he saw that the Blue Line hit the Green Line, which went to the airport. He was downtown, near a terminus Blue Line stop, and so he figured that he could take the Blue Line and arrive at the airport in a relativity timely manner. Of course, this was assuming that the Blue Line was in fact, a metro, as the map implied. Instead, as he boarded, he was surprised to learn that his train would be mingling with not only traffic but street lights, something that is decidedly non-metro. What a metro is is a grade-separated train. That is the definition. I have never seen a Light Rail listed as Light Rail on a map, it is always 'Rail' or 'Metro'. Therefore, people believe they are riding on a subway, when in reality they are often riding on little more then a streetcar. Suffice to say, due to getting stuck in traffic on the Blue Line, the man missed his plane. In Europe, it's easy. You have Trams, which are clearly marked as being TRAMS, not a metro line, and you separately have a Metro, which is always grade separated, thus it doesn't have to deal with cars. You know what you are getting in Europe. In America, you don't. I never understood why transit has to be so misleading in America. If you are going to build what is effectively a streetcar, why label it Light Rail? Why mark it as a metro line? Why not just have it be called a 'tram'? This is something in life where there shouldn't really be a middle ground, yet for some reason, there is. It just seems illogical.
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  #252  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
This is why I'm ultimately glad my home town of Tampa's recent LRT initiative failed. The plan sucked anyways, because it was being implemented by people good at buses, not trains. The 5 mile ride from DT to the airport would have been like 26 minutes, and from the university to the airport was like a 12 mile run and would have taken 51 minutes or something crazy like that. A pro distance runner could probably make that time on foot!
Something that people have to learn is that light rail isn't necessarily rapid transit. LRT is slow and pokey compared with real rapid transit, and it is designed as a neighborhood point to point service, not a serious metropolitan wide transit solution. If you look at Europe, cities like Berlin use their LRT/streetcars as small feeder lines (rarely more than 5-10km) that connect to nodes of rapid transit that go serious distances at better speeds. American cities have planned LRT networks with lines that are 50km long, and mix in traffic. America has bastardized the LRT concept.

Trying to implement mixed LRT rights of way with in-grade street crossings kind of devoids the rapid transit and makes it essentially local transit that is slow and pokey.

The more I learn about various modes of transit, the more I realize LRT is many times waste in the communities it is installed in, and it is like an over-glorified bus. In America we don't have many local transit communities, we have the need for rapid vast distance travel, and LRT isn't suited for it. Well, LRT can be suited if you use the highest grade articulated vehicles and exclusively run it in rights of way, but then what is the point of LRT? Why not build a subway at that point?

LRT is really best built in Europe where local transit needs are serious and real with high density local development. Americans need more rapid transit with exclusive rights of way as our distances are far greater and densities are far lower, our stations are really collector points for surrounding communities, not local transit solutions.
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  #253  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 3:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joke Insurance View Post
Could any of you see Light Rail in the following cities?
  • Richmond
  • Albany
  • Hartford
  • San Antonio
  • Jacksonville
  • Indianapolis
  • Columbus
  • El Paso
  • Memphis
  • Tucson
  • Albuquerque
  • Oklahoma City
  • Milwaukee
  • Louisville
  • Fresno
  • Kansas City
  • Mesa
  • Atlanta
  • Colorado Springs
  • Omaha
  • Tampa
  • Raleigh
  • Wichita
  • Bakersfield
  • Tulsa
  • Oakland
  • Aurora
  • Santa Ana
  • Miami
  • Rochester

If so, which ones? And where would you run the single line or multiple lines?
Mesa is getting an extension of the Phoenix light rail - it's under final design now and is funded for construction. Tucson is building a modern streetcar line. Atlanta is in some stage of planning for their Beltline, which I believe will be light rail.
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Last edited by Sekkle; Aug 9, 2011 at 4:10 AM.
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  #254  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 4:25 AM
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Some of those cities on that list already have rail.. Memphis has a downtown light rail/vintage trolley system. It isn't a tiny circulator just for a few blocks, it actually connects midtown to downtown. It's a properly sized light rail network, although it doesn't use modern streetcars and uses vintage trolley cars it serves the exact same purpose as a local transit line.

Atlanta has a heavy rail network, why would the city need to waste money on light rail when the density doesn't qualify for local transit? Atlanta needs it's heavy rail solution, it has a high regional population even though its low density, the low densities of the region allow for collection of people from area neighborhoods to be collected and then sent off on a faster, heavy rail network that works better for the needs of a low density region like Atlanta.

It is a bitter irony, but heavy rail actually serves a better purpose in lower density settings since local transit solutions like LRT require higher densities to work better.

Light Rail really is a fad... It doesn't solve a problem when there are few high densty neighborhoods being built anywhere in America.
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  #255  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 4:49 AM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
My problem with Light Rail is this: it is sort of misleading. I remember reading an article about a man in Los Angeles who took Metro to get to the airport. On the map, he saw that the Blue Line hit the Green Line, which went to the airport. He was downtown, near a terminus Blue Line stop, and so he figured that he could take the Blue Line and arrive at the airport in a relativity timely manner. Of course, this was assuming that the Blue Line was in fact, a metro, as the map implied. Instead, as he boarded, he was surprised to learn that his train would be mingling with not only traffic but street lights, something that is decidedly non-metro. What a metro is is a grade-separated train. That is the definition. I have never seen a Light Rail listed as Light Rail on a map, it is always 'Rail' or 'Metro'. Therefore, people believe they are riding on a subway, when in reality they are often riding on little more then a streetcar. Suffice to say, due to getting stuck in traffic on the Blue Line, the man missed his plane.
I've taken the Blue Line a lot......it doesn't get "stuck in traffic". The only time there are delays with the Blue Line is if there is an accident along the ROW or in the street running portions, or maintenance. But no, it's never been held up for traffic. It doesn't work like MUNI, that shares tracks with parallel cars...liked a streetcar.

Plus, if you are using a foreign Metro system, you should always plan ahead. That's not LA's fault he missed the plane, he should have checked out the Metro timetables, asked people, etc... When I travel on Metros in other cities, I study the maps and expected time. Especially airport destinations, in a foreign city, you want to get there early. The Blue Line didn't make him late, the guy didn't plan well. Plain and simple.
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  #256  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 4:50 AM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
It is a bitter irony, but heavy rail actually serves a better purpose in lower density settings since local transit solutions like LRT require higher densities to work better.

Light Rail really is a fad... It doesn't solve a problem when there are few high densty neighborhoods being built anywhere in America.
How does that figure...that LRT serves higher densities better than heavy rail with lower densities? I don't understand that. That's like saying the New York MTA is a failure, but yet the Hoboken Light Rail serves far more people. Please explain.
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  #257  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 5:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post

Atlanta has a heavy rail network, why would the city need to waste money on light rail when the density doesn't qualify for local transit? Atlanta needs it's heavy rail solution, it has a high regional population even though its low density, the low densities of the region allow for collection of people from area neighborhoods to be collected and then sent off on a faster, heavy rail network that works better for the needs of a low density region like Atlanta.

It is a bitter irony, but heavy rail actually serves a better purpose in lower density settings since local transit solutions like LRT require higher densities to work better.

Light Rail really is a fad... It doesn't solve a problem when there are few high densty neighborhoods being built anywhere in America.
LRT in Calgary is quite similar to the commuter-rail-model that you just described.

EDIT: to add that this is a bit of a double-edged sword. It has made the system quite successful (by most measures) but it has also meant that it serves the low density suburbs better than it serves higher density downtown neighbourhoods.
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  #258  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 5:25 AM
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Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim View Post
I've taken the Blue Line a lot......it doesn't get "stuck in traffic". The only time there are delays with the Blue Line is if there is an accident along the ROW or in the street running portions, or maintenance. But no, it's never been held up for traffic. It doesn't work like MUNI, that shares tracks with parallel cars...liked a streetcar.

Plus, if you are using a foreign Metro system, you should always plan ahead. That's not LA's fault he missed the plane, he should have checked out the Metro timetables, asked people, etc... When I travel on Metros in other cities, I study the maps and expected time. Especially airport destinations, in a foreign city, you want to get there early. The Blue Line didn't make him late, the guy didn't plan well. Plain and simple.
I say 'stuck in traffic' as an umbrella term, though I probably shouldn't. Because of car-related issues, like streetlights etc., he arrived late. Issues that wouldn't be prevalent in a real 'metro'.
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  #259  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 9:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
LRT in Calgary is quite similar to the commuter-rail-model that you just described.

EDIT: to add that this is a bit of a double-edged sword. It has made the system quite successful (by most measures) but it has also meant that it serves the low density suburbs better than it serves higher density downtown neighbourhoods.
This topic is more complicated than the simple discussions we've had so far. LRT in Calgary is "done right" for true rapid transit, for the most part. I have to say that I don't know everything about the Calgary system, but they are burying what portions still run in street traffic, no?

So far as LRT vs Subway, the real point I was making is that modern LRT has to be in its own right of way to be considered true rapid transit (or vast majority in its own right of way, with almost no intersection hopping through traffic). And if you make LRT in its own right of way and pay for a quality system, it makes a lot of sense to go ahead and make it subway/metro grade with 3rd rail instead of investing in LRT technology, the costs become negligible between 3rd rail metro and LRT with it's own right of way.

LRT as a street solution/local transit is good only in truly urban settings (for example, Toronto's amazing streetcar network is North America's largest and most successful LRT model, and one of the few examples in North America where LRT makes sense, along with San Francisco). Most of these other cities that are forming LRT systems really have a weird implementation... Minneapolis and Denver both have good starter systems, Denver slightly more advanced, but Denver has tried to make it's LRT a one-size-fits-all solution, both a rapid transit city-wide mode and a local transit mode in the central core... Its not my favorite implementation. Denver and Minneapolis are bona fide, suburban type American cities. There isn't much urbanity there, so the street portions work downtown I suppose, but they strangle the entire solution as a "rapid transit" network.

American cities are implementing LRT in ways that are unheard of in Europe, again Berlin is my favorite model. The backbone of transportation in Berlin is the heavy rail metro/rapid transit, then it has tons of feeder LRT streetcar systems/trams that are 5, 8, 10km in length.

American metros will have LRT lines that go for 30-50km, mixed as local transit and rapid transit. It literally makes no sense what-so-ever, and I didn't realize it until the past 5 years when I really started to examine the different uses of LRT around the world. But save for New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, and a handful of other cities there really isn't much urbanity in America to speak of. It is amazing a nation with over 300 million people has so few urban settings, so few in fact you could count on your two hands.
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  #260  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joke Insurance View Post
Could any of you see Light Rail in the following cities?
  • Richmond < BRT line / LRT line has been proposed
  • Albany < BRT line has been proposed
  • Hartford < BRT line is under construction , LRT system is a possibility down the road
  • San Antonio < BRT system / LRT line has been proposed
  • Jacksonville < BRT system / LRT system has been proposed
  • Indianapolis < BRT system / LRT line has been proposed
  • Columbus < BRT line/ LRT line has been proposed
  • El Paso < Streetcars have been proposed , idk if LRT would work
  • Memphis < There is a small streetcar line in Downtown and a LRT system has been proposed
  • Tucson < There is a streetcar line and more will be built , LRT might not work here
  • Albuquerque < Streetcars / LRT line has been proposed
  • Oklahoma City < BRT line / Streetcar loop has been proposed
  • Milwaukee < Streetcar is in the final planning stages
  • Louisville < A Streetcar system has been proposed
  • Fresno < A Streetcar system has been proposed
  • Kansas City < BRT system / LRT system has been proposed
  • Mesa < A LRT line is in the planning stages
  • Atlanta < A Streetcar line and LRT system have been proposed or are near construction
  • Colorado Springs < A Streetcar system has been proposed
  • Omaha < A LRT system has been proposed
  • Tampa < A small streetcar line exists , LRT has been shot down numerous times
  • Raleigh < A LRT system has been proposed
  • Wichita < Haven't heard of anything for this city
  • Bakersfield < Haven't heard of anything for this city
  • Tulsa < a Small Streetcar system has been proposed
  • Oakland < a BRT / Streetcar system has been proposed
  • Aurora < Haven't heard of anything for this city
  • Santa Ana < Haven't heard of anything for this city
  • Miami < a LRT system has been proposed
  • Rochester < a LRT system has been proposed

If so, which ones? And where would you run the single line or multiple lines?
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