Can a 3000 degree Olympic Flame safely burn inside an Airtight Indoor Domed Stadium?

[towerguy3]

There's a problem facing organizers of the 2010 Winter Olympics here in Vancouver.

The Opening and Closing and Medal Ceremonies are in BC Place Stadium which is a 60,000 seat air supported dome built in 1982:

http://www.bcplacestadium.com

in much the same design as the Metrodome in Minneapolis.

Organizers want to have the Olympic Flame burning inside the dome, but the Flame's temperature can run as high as 3000 degrees.

The solution appears to be a Retractable Roof which will allow venting of heat and fumes, but there is some reluctance to go to this extent.

Some feel that a HVAC system can safely suck out the fumes and pollutants from the inside of the dome. Yet that same air is critical to keep the roof aloft.

Remember that the building is almost airtight with some ventilation through ducts on the roof. The revolving doors that you pass through to enter are there to help keep the air in and roof up.

So how do you engineer a system to suck air out containing fumes and pollutants and at the same time suck enough air in to keep the roof from deflating?

Another concern, and I think this is more serious, is the flame's heat and its effect on the teflon roof. Hot air rises. A natural gas flame can run as high as 3000 degrees.

All that hot air will rise to the top of the dome and cause the dome to expand. If not controlled, it could tear, which is what happened last January, due to different circumstances though.

The Flame will heat up the building and make it very hot and stinky and smelly, so how do you do the air conditioning? And what's to prevent the teflon from burning?

While there is a SnowMelt system in place to allow 140 degree steam to be blown into the roof fabric layers to melt accumulated snow atop, that steam heat is dispersed over 10 acres of fabric.

In the case of the Flame cauldron, the heat will be concentrated on one small area of the roof.

Would not the fumes be noxious? Could the fumes be dangerous? Could there be an explosion?

What are the Fire Marshall's regulations concerning a 3000 degree Flame burning in an Indoor Building with 60,000 people in attendance?

Suggest ideas on how to design a ventilation / heat suppression system to make the Flame work safely indoors without causing the roof to rip and without causing patrons to pass out or get sick from the fumes.

The Olympic Charter says the flame must burn for 17 straight days.

Is a Retractable Roof a better option? What options does a Retractable Roof bring to the table?

[towerguy3]

Here is proof that a natural gas flame will burn at 3500 degrees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabat...me_temperature

[jlousa]

1) The stadium is not airtight.
2) The "torch" does not burn at 3000 degrees, at least not on any scale used commonly (F, C, K)
3) Any heat created by a controlled flame would not negatively affect a teflon roof hundreds of feet away from the heatsource.
4) The amount of CO2/CO produced by a controlled flame in an area as big as the largest air-supported dome in the world would be insignificate even if burning for 17 straight days. (see answer #1)
5) An explosion would be highly unlikely, and would not be affected on the roof being retractable or air supported.
6)The fumes do not smell nor are the fumes emitted explosive.
7) No amount of creating new posts all over the place will get you a retractable roof and out of buying me a steak.

Glad I could be of help

[towerguy3]

1. Please provide some evidence of the cauldron temperature

2. Hundreds of feet away is incorrect. The maximum height of the dome at the apex is 200 feet at 250 Pa pressure. The cauldron would likely be about half that height off the floor and if positioned near one end would be even closer still to the roof

[mr.x]

^ Please provide linked evidence to everything you said in your first post.

[towerguy3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabat...me_temperature

[smurf]

To answer your question, a flame in a stadium that size will have minimal impact. The HVAC system already deals with pollutants (carbon dioxide) from the 60,000 guests. If I remember correctly, each person requires roughly 15cfm of ventilation, so 900,000cfm of air must move in that stadium. I seriously doubt the flame is large enough to contaminate that much air. Secondly, a 3000 degree flame will not have 3000 degree air for much time. Heat transfer dictates that the air temp will drop severely within a short distance of the flame. Frankly, I think its a non-issue, or a political one at best. Also, I used ASHRAE standards, I presume Canada has similar ones.

[nikw]

There is no way a retractable roof will be built for the Olympics (due to many reasons number one being the fact that there is less than 2 years untill the games) so I dont understand why we are still talking about it. So there is no reason to put the retractable roof in a list of possible solutions.

The IOC requires that the Olympic Flame be visible to the main audience during the opening ceremoinies, so pretty much somehow VANOC will find some way to make it happen. Besides the majority of us dont exactly have expertise in these areas so we can only speculate. (no more speculation of the retractable roof please...i dont know about everyone else, so if you guys feel differently thats fine and go ahead and speculate about the magic retractable roof)

[towerguy3]

Doing an experiment tonight. I have my gas fireplace burning now for about an hour. No smell at all. The smell comes from an open gas leak; once the flame is burning, there's no smell.

[LeftCoaster]

maybe you should close all the doors and turn on the gas fireplace without lighting it and see what happens??

[1ajs]

you cna't smell or taste co2...........

[towerguy3]

Every flame gives off fumes. All the literature I see says that a gas flame will burn at between 2000 and 3000 degrees.

Even burning at 2000 degrees that's 4 times hotter than the hottest your oven will ever get.

Stick your head inside an oven after it's hit 500 degrees and multiply that heat by 4 times.

That's the sort of heat the roof of BC Place will have to be able to withstand over two weeks of burning without tearing or bursting.

The volume of BC Place's interior is 48 million cubic feet. This is an Engineering Discussion. Suggest how all that heat will be disappated.

First off while the entire roof may not get hot...

THE PORTION OF THE ROOF DIRECTLY ABOVE THE FLAME WILL GET THE HEAT.

Hot air rises. What are you suggesting, the air will be cooled by the time it rises 150 feet to meet the teflon? I don't think so.

I'm not as concerned about all 10 acres of the teflon as the portion of the teflon directly above the flame.

[Nowhereman1280]

^^^ Are you an engineer?

[jlousa]

No he's a rocket scientist.

[Canadian Mind]

F****** better then that, he also developed the nuclear weapon, played golf on the moon, and built a time machine sometime after 2010 just so he could come back and post on a forum to annoy the hell out of us trying to get the shangri-la over the 200 meter mark and BC place a retractable roof.

would explain how he can so accurately guess the outcome of projects, and yet screw em up royally at the same time.

and i wish i found this thread yesterday... coulda used the laugh.

[fever]

Methane and butane are colourless and odourless. The smell of natural gas/methane is added for safety, so people can detect a gas leak. Methane also burns cleanly, producing just co2 and h20. Butane can burn cleanly.

Teflon has about the highest melting point of any plastic at around 250C. It would take a hell of a big flame to get 250C at any distance from the flame, even with a good current of air developing between the hot torch and cold roof.

[Kelvin]

Dissipation of heat, energy, and like phenomena is proportional to the square or cube of the distance from the source assuming a generally infinite area or volume in which to store it. IN the case of a small open flame inside a gigantic arena, the same relationship would be expected to occur - e.g. it is a non-issue.

To test the theory, light a small butane lighter and hold a thermometer in the flame. Now try moving the thermometer 2', 5' or 10' above the flame and note the diminishing temperature is not linear in nature.

[towerguy3]

Can the cauldron be made to burn a methane flame? Does such a flame burn yellow or red? How would that look on worldwide tv?

What experience does Bombardier have in flames?

[yerfdog]

Originally Posted by towerguy3

Every flame gives off fumes. All the literature I see says that a gas flame will burn at between 2000 and 3000 degrees.

Even burning at 2000 degrees that's 4 times hotter than the hottest your oven will ever get.

Stick your head inside an oven after it's hit 500 degrees and multiply that heat by 4 times.

That's the sort of heat the roof of BC Place will have to be able to withstand over two weeks of burning without tearing or bursting.

The volume of BC Place's interior is 48 million cubic feet. This is an Engineering Discussion. Suggest how all that heat will be disappated.

First off while the entire roof may not get hot...

THE PORTION OF THE ROOF DIRECTLY ABOVE THE FLAME WILL GET THE HEAT.

Hot air rises. What are you suggesting, the air will be cooled by the time it rises 150 feet to meet the teflon? I don't think so.

I'm not as concerned about all 10 acres of the teflon as the portion of the teflon directly above the flame.

The gas in your oven is burning at the same temperature no matter what, whether your oven is 500 degrees OR 200 degrees.

This is because as reasonable people above have said, the temp of the flame itself ≠ the temp of the air around it. Just because something has a really high temperature does not mean there is a lot of heat.

If you just have a smaller flame you won't get as much heat, even if the temp of the flame is the same.

Would you seriously argue about heat physics with a guy named Kelvin?

[faux_ph]

I seriously doubt about the 3000 degrees (Fahrenheit, Celsius, Kelvin). There's no way the temperature could reach that in that environment. The vessel containing the Olympic flame would melt if it reaches that kind of temperature and I am pretty sure no one wants that. I am more inclined to believe that it's 300.0 rather than 3000 degrees.