New Census data: Americans are returning to the far-flung suburbs

[goat314]

Originally Posted by chris08876

I'd say crime is the biggest factor for why these cities bleed. If places like Baltimore, Detroit, Trenton, Camden, Flint, and so on reduced crime to the point of it being safe city wide and not just in a few areas (usually cbd's which become bad after 6pm once all the office workers leave), we would see a resurgence. People leave in part to safety. Its a really nice city (baltimore), but high crime keeps it from reaching its potential. Crime, along with its elements also infiltrate schools, and thus provide a poor system which is a big factor for raising a family.

They might be cool for younger people, but once the raising of children comes into mind, many things sound promising in the suburbs versus cities with high crime rates.

Unfortunately in the U.S., we tend to let inner city neighborhoods degrade to the point of it looking like a ghost town.

Poverty, poverty, poverty, poverty....until people have gainful employment and aren't isolated in food desert ghettos we will have high crime rates in cities. Concentrated poverty and segregation killed many American cities.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Looking at this by city:

NYC: tons of infill in city, prosperous inner ring suburbs (but with population turnover driven by immigration), some exuburban growth driven by immigrants and ethnic inner ring popuation cashing out and moving to the fringes.

LA: less infill, built out, plenty of population turnover in city and inner ring burbs, some trailer parks being built in the desert somewhere

Chicago: exurbs growing, less population turnover on south side to replace exodus, inner ring suburbs stable, 2/3 of city improving

SF, Seattle, Portland: minimal exurban growth, lots of infill, stable inner ring suburbs without much population turnover

DC, Boston: tons of infill, exurban growth, but inner ring suburbs built out and stable/prosperous, less population turnover than in NYC or LA.

Detroit: exurban growth, city declining w/ no replacement for people moving out, inner suburbs built out and stable, little densification in suburbs

St. Louis: exurban growth, inner suburbs built out and declining, city improving

Denver, Minneapolis: some infill, city improving, new exurbs, inner suburbs stable.

Not all of St. Louis' inner rings suburbs are "declining" in the traditional sense, most are stable. In fact, a lot of the historic streetcar types are densifying with multi-family and seen as a safe alternative to the city.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by goat314

Not all of St. Louis' inner rings suburbs are "declining" in the traditional sense, most are stable. In fact, a lot of the historic streetcar types are densifying with multi-family and seen as a safe alternative to the city.

Quite possibly...and articles like these are no more than fear mongering.

Dallas and Houston: tons of center city infill, tons of exurban growth, but Houston w/ huge population turnover in the inner ring suburbs whereas Dallas more stable.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

I looked at the latest census data, and it doesn't make any sense? Pittsburgh MSA is still declining?? Huh??? Anyone else find this confusing?

I have previously noted that Pittsburgh is still a relatively challenged region, but people on SSP always get offended, because it doesn't fit the worldview of "historic revitalized city must have regional growth". The fact is that Pittsburgh basically hasn't grown in like 40-50 years. Even Detroit grows most years.

Metropolitan growth has little to do with gentrification and downtowns, and has almost everything to do with jobs and demographics. Pittsburgh gets few immigrants and very little domestic inmigration, so it continues to decline somewhat, no matter how many bistros open downtown.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by goat314

Poverty, poverty, poverty, poverty....until people have gainful employment and aren't isolated in food desert ghettos we will have high crime rates in cities. Concentrated poverty and segregation killed many American cities.

Poverty isn't closely correlated with crime in the U.S. The biggest increases in crime were concurrent with the biggest drops in poverty in U.S. history (during the 1960's). The recent large drops in crime have been concurrent with stable or increasing poverty.

And most of the poorest parts of the U.S. don't have particularly high crime. The poorest parts are generally rural and/or along the Mexican border. Places like El Paso are extremely safe, with very low murder and violent crime rates.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Even Detroit grows most years.

no way. detriot's population has dropped like a rock since 1950:

1950 1,849,568
1960 1,670,144
1970 1,511,482
1980 1,203,339
1990 1,027,974
2000 951, 270
2010 713, 777

[memph]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

no way. detriot's population has dropped like a rock since 1950:

1950 1,849,568
1960 1,670,144
1970 1,511,482
1980 1,203,339
1990 1,027,974
2000 951, 270
2010 713, 777

I think it's pretty obvious he was referring to the metro area.

[kcexpress69]

Detroit Metro Area:

1950 3,016,197
1960 3,762,360 24.7%
1970 4,307,470 14.5%
1980 4,353,365 1.1%
1990 4,382,299 0.7%
2000 4,452,557 1.6%
2010 4,296,250 −3.5%
Est. 2014 4,296,611 0.0%

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Poverty isn't closely correlated with crime in the U.S. The biggest increases in crime were concurrent with the biggest drops in poverty in U.S. history (during the 1960's). The recent large drops in crime have been concurrent with stable or increasing poverty.

And most of the poorest parts of the U.S. don't have particularly high crime. The poorest parts are generally rural and/or along the Mexican border. Places like El Paso are extremely safe, with very low murder and violent crime rates.

There is just too much academic data that says otherwise. Not only that, but anybody who has ever lived in a high poverty area can attest that there is more explicit criminal activity in lower income communities than wealthier ones. I do agree that a part of our violent crime problem is directly related to deeper seeded issues that are country likes to sleep under the rug, but to deny poverty plays a part in crime is just ridiculous.

[Ryanrule]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

the inner and middle ring suburban collapse is going full speed ahead. fyi, ferguson is both an inner and middle ring suburb.

maybe in the south.

[liat91]

Seems in NY to be all city growth going on. Still a bit of teardowns in prosperous inner burbs, nothin really happening in middle or outer burbs. The exurbs however (Allentown) is growing moderately. We're saturated with immigrants, with Chinese, Mexicans and to a lesser extent Eastern Europeans flowing into the city, Indians and Central Americans are colonizing the suburbs.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Quite possibly...and articles like these are no more than fear mongering.

Dallas and Houston: tons of center city infill, tons of exurban growth, but Houston w/ huge population turnover in the inner ring suburbs whereas Dallas more stable.

Atlanta is building infill as fast as it can and the city is growing at a good pace, but the suburbs are still growing faster just like almost any other city - but it doesn't mean that the city isn't urbanizing at a pretty fast pace.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by goat314

Not all of St. Louis' inner rings suburbs are "declining" in the traditional sense, most are stable. In fact, a lot of the historic streetcar types are densifying with multi-family and seen as a safe alternative to the city.

yeah. there are inner suburbs here that are building skyscrapers. i spend too much time there.

at least it's not st. charles county i guess.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Ryanrule

maybe in the south.

maybe in the south.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by liat91

Seems in NY to be all city growth going on. Still a bit of teardowns in prosperous inner burbs, nothin really happening in middle or outer burbs. The exurbs however (Allentown) is growing moderately. We're saturated with immigrants, with Chinese, Mexicans and to a lesser extent Eastern Europeans flowing into the city, Indians and Central Americans are colonizing the suburbs.

Is allentown really an exurb? I consider allentown its own thing. Places like orange county, ny and morristown area are exurbs imo

[C.]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Is allentown really an exurb? I consider allentown its own thing. Places like orange county, ny and morristown area are exurbs imo

Interesting question - there are folks that commute daily by car or bus to Manhattan for work each weekday. It's about an hour and a half trip each way. In that sense it's an exurb of New York but most would consider its own independent area.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think part of this is also based on the fetishizing of European centers based on infrequent tourist experiences. If you visit Europe, you're probably going to see places like Venice, Paris, and Brugge. I don't think you'll be stopping into to experience the glories of Essen, or Bradford or Lille. So people have this impression that everyone is living some ultra-urban lifestyle, surrounded by medieval architecture, narrow streets, and incredible street vitality.

More Crawford (and increasingly SSP) wisdom. It's pretty clear you have not been to any of these cities and don't even bother to visit the photo threads on this very forum on the rare occasion cities such as the ones mentioned do make an appearance...

Lille, what a bland shithole...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille#/...e_gd_place.JPG

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Even the less pretty cities like Shefield, Nottingham, Lille, Dortmund, etc. have more street vitality and urban lifestyle than places like St. Louis, Balitmore, Tampa, and even larger cities like LA (where few people walk). And they have prettier centers too. What does that say for the poorly designed average US city? I'd say they even have more street vitality than DC and Boston. Places like Dublin certainly do - I have extensive experience with that city and have compared it to DC - and that isn't a beautiful city by european standards by any stretch of the imagination. However, it would be up there with the most beautiful in the USA. Europeans are lucky that history of dense cities and nice streets has helped shape their interesting socially connected urban lifestyle. Even the bombed out cities from WWII are much more vibrant even with drab architecture. Sprawl isn't a big factor, although some cities like London, Milan, etc, certainly appear to sprawl out and could be far denser. However, that is compensated by their large populations.

Essen and Leeds have far more vibrant and fun downtowns than Kansas City and Memphis. Visit and you'll see what I mean.

Thanks for this post!

I do like to point out that both London and Milan are more dense than anything in the US/Canada except for New York. Sure their metro areas are vast, but as you mention also highly populated (20M and 8M). They don't consist of sprawl though, more like satellite cities scattered across the area, for the most part compact and urban themselves and connected by rail. Off course, many of the experts on here will claim that much of it isn't even part of those cities metro areas at all.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

More Crawford (and increasingly SSP) wisdom. It's pretty clear you have not been to any of these cities and don't even bother to visit the photo threads on this very forum on the rare occasion cities such as the ones mentioned do make an appearance...

Lille, what a bland shithole...

He also said crime and poverty had no relation, so I'm not surprised he made this statement. Seems like many people on this forum make statements about things they know very little about....smh.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by 10023

I can assure you that my own experiences are not like this (hence the part about some pretty drab European cities). Turin, for instance, is kind of a shithole outside of a small area in the center. But it is more urban than its peer cities in the American Rust Belt.

So now you're on record that both Marseille and Turin are shitholes. Shows exactely how much your "opinions" are worth on here.