Burnaby Updates

[Skygazer]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

Also, in Save-On's case, I would question the wisdom of putting it in a location where it's now more or less in direct competition with the more established IGA slightly further down Kingsway.

Which location is that? They replaced the one at the Old Orchard Shopping Centre at Kingsway & Willingdon, and looking on their site I don't see any others on Kingsway. In fact the closest one now appears to be in downtown Vancouver.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

That's really funny to hear.

Save-on used to be located in the old Station Square before the redevelopment and was actually supposed to go back there, but then they owners changed the plans and put PriceSmart there instead.

So it's really funny to hear that they not only bought a new location a few steps away, but would possibly be hoping for the area to be redeveloped (again) and get a new store out of it.

Why didn't they just put the old Save-On back at Station Square?


Also, in Save-On's case, I would question the wisdom of putting it in a location where it's now more or less in direct competition with the more established IGA slightly further down Kingsway.

I know. Even during construction we didn't know if it was going to be Save-On or PriceSmart. I asked at their sales center one day and they didn't know either. It wasn't until they started reopening the Central Blvd end and I saw a sign that any of us knew which store it was going to be.

They bought the IGA you're thinking of. Now there isn't a location in either Burnaby or New West (I checked on their site). The IGA by New West Station became a Save-On too.


Brentwood and Lougheed are both supposed to be getting new community centres. I can see them getting built into new towers, not only because both areas are getting rebuilt, but also because they're both owned by Shape Properties.

But what about this Edmonds arena? The only larger lots anywhere near the Skytrain are newer industrial (they've been moving that down to Big Bend), dedicated parkland (that they're not going to rip out) and the Southgate (old Safeway distribution centre) site.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Do you guys really want a convention center smack in the middle of Brentwood or Metrotown? Those things require lots of parking (and big roads) and most of the time they are dead from the outside. A stadium is a more lively venue and a better amenity to the people that live in the area. Convention centers are mostly for out-of-town visitors.

Because Metrotown is in the center of Metro Vancouver? It's something that has both road and transit access?

I was walking around outside Metropolis yesterday and made note of how much space is still wasted by surface and parkade parking.

(sources: Rezoning reference 12-14, 02-27 and 14-09

At least half of that space is the Sears property.

The entire North-East section of the property except for the "park" corner that Concord current has, plus the "Bay" section of the mall and the tiny property pieces along Nelson and Bennet could fit a BC-Place sized venue (BC Place is 365,000 sq feet) I don't see the point of yet another covered stadium in Metro Vancouver without a NHL/NBA/MLB franchise, especially since Swangard stadium is in the nearby park to the west.

But if you don't go big, you may as well not bother, because that doesn't attract large venues, and once a venue outgrows the space, it too will leave town.

The parking space already exists to serve the mall, same with the existing loading areas, which is why the area makes sense in the first place. A "large" convention is around 175,000 attendees, the current limits of Seattle and Downtown Vancouver would limit a convention to around 60,000. 60,000 people don't drive to a venue. The mall alone has 28.7 million annual visitors. That's 78,000 per day.

Anyway this is venturing too far into fantasy land. The City of Burnaby has no vision and will likely just approve whatever monstrosity Concord Pacific proposes for the North-East part of Metrotown/Sears property.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GilmoreStation

Brentwood area still feels more upscale than Metrotown. Not sure if this is going to last after all of the developments are completed though.

By "upscale" do you mean more Single Family Housing north of Lougheed? I think Brentwood is hardly upscale with so much industrial parks around. Some warehouses are simply badly kept. And how come the "upscale" vibe you have will not last there after all the developments? I thought it should be the other way around.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Vin

I think Brentwood is hardly upscale with so much industrial parks around.

I'm not sure it's really up-scale (and I'm even less sure I want it to be), but most of that industrial is literally the other side of the tracks, which delineate the southern boundary of the town centre area. Development is steadily eroding what is left north of the tracks, and it seems to be taking the most neglected stuff first (e.g. the old auto shop on the mall lands; the garage I think it was where the Fortress, er, "Brentwood Gate" now stands; the ramshackle houses that used to be across Halifax from Aviara).

My impression is that the population of the towers tends towards young professionals. That's certainly what I've seen at Save On Foods over the years, since around the time that the Buchanan development was built. I suspect many of them work downtown or at nearby offices (places like the office parks along Henning, BCIT, EA, etc.). Whether they are free enough with their money to make Whole Foods a success is another matter (I suspect it is doing much better with food-to-go at the deli than with groceries). The mall regularly holds events targeted at young families and professionals (stuff for kids, yoga classes, live music, choir performances, Chinese New Year acrobatics, etc.).

A decade ago, Brentwood Park (SFH north of the mall) seemed to still be a largely Italian working-class neighborhood, with houses occupied mostly by old folks who had been there since the beginning. There were so few children that apparently there was talk of taking out the play structures in the park (the city is doing work there and I think they are about to be replaced). Since then there has been generational turn-over: there are more families with kids, children play in the park (and dog-walkers meet there), the school is reportedly too full, and more Chinese have moved in.

Hastings between Gilmore and Gamma is definitely moving up-scale (not too much I hope). Stuff like the strip bar at the NBI (of Glen Clark fame) is long gone. (I have heard rumours though that there are still mob businesses in the area.) The newer four-storey mixed development buildings replacing older, rather run-down one- and two-storey commercial structures must have higher rents. The replacement of the Legion building is a good example (replacing a surface parking lot and large drinking establishment with condos and a smaller, vertical legion). Newer places like Chez Christophe (excellent pastries, but they're not cheap) seem to be doing ok.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Because Metrotown is in the center of Metro Vancouver? It's something that has both road and transit access?

I was walking around outside Metropolis yesterday and made note of how much space is still wasted by surface and parkade parking.
.......

At least half of that space is the Sears property.

The entire North-East section of the property except for the "park" corner that Concord current has, plus the "Bay" section of the mall and the tiny property pieces along Nelson and Bennet could fit a BC-Place sized venue (BC Place is 365,000 sq feet) I don't see the point of yet another covered stadium in Metro Vancouver without a NHL/NBA/MLB franchise, especially since Swangard stadium is in the nearby park to the west.

But if you don't go big, you may as well not bother, because that doesn't attract large venues, and once a venue outgrows the space, it too will leave town.

The parking space already exists to serve the mall, same with the existing loading areas, which is why the area makes sense in the first place. A "large" convention is around 175,000 attendees, the current limits of Seattle and Downtown Vancouver would limit a convention to around 60,000. 60,000 people don't drive to a venue. The mall alone has 28.7 million annual visitors. That's 78,000 per day.

Anyway this is venturing too far into fantasy land. The City of Burnaby has no vision and will likely just approve whatever monstrosity Concord Pacific proposes for the North-East part of Metrotown/Sears property.

Concord Pacific Property.

Sears sold it all to Concord and are now just renting the space (including their own store) from Concord.

Concord already carved some of that back to start setting up the Showroom for their Concord Brentwood project (which looks like it will be a really big deal and really high-end - both the showroom and the project, I guess).

I don't believe they're planning on doing anything on that lot (or the Sears store) for the foreseeable future - at least not while their Brentwood project (which will take quite a while) is ongoing.
There's too many issues to do with parking, easements and rights-of-way to sort out between themselves and the city of Burnaby and Meotrpolis mall that, they're probably better off just sitting on it for the time being.

[officedweller]

By "arena" I think that the City of Burnaby may mean a community arena like 8 rinks.

For the events centre, there's the Esso Station at Willingdon & Kingsway, but I think a site south of Beresford close to Metrotown Station would be better - across from the Metrotowers (not sure if those have been bought up for condos though).

In terms of transit, Metrotown is more accessible than Brentwood, with Expo Line connections to Downtown Vancouver , New Westminster and Surrey.

In terms of road access, Metrotown is hard to access (Brentwood or Lougheed are closer to Highway 1).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

By "arena" I think that the City of Burnaby may mean a community arena like 8 rinks.

For the events centre, there's the Esso Station at Willingdon & Kingsway, but I think a site south of Beresford close to Metrotown Station would be better - across from the Metrotowers (not sure if those have been bought up for condos though).

In terms of transit, Metrotown is more accessible than Brentwood, with Expo Line connections to Downtown Vancouver , New Westminster and Surrey.

In terms of road access, Metrotown is hard to access (Brentwood or Lougheed are closer to Highway 1).

The gas station at Kingsway and Willingdon is a smaller lot and probably the only other space large enough in the area. Beresford along the skytrain is going to be towers with lowrises behind it along that whole stretch - no chance of a convention centre happening there.


Whatever variety of arena it is, there still needs to be some space for it. There are basically three nodes (or whatever you want to call them) for Edmonds - around Edmonds Station, the (not yet built) Southgate development, and up by Edmonds and Kingsway.

The only spot that's not dedicated parkland near the skytrain is the Hydro property. It's been empty for as long as I remember but are they willing to part with it? There's nothing around Southgate unless they try to get it into that development and I don't think that's likely. By Edmonds and Kingsway the only possible spot I see is next door to the new Community Centre (between Linden and Fulton) and across from the Kings Crossing Development.

[officedweller]

Thanks.

From the Esso station they could extend south along Willingdon to get closer to SkyTrain.
(with a couple road closures or overhead walkways)
That site is also close to the 2 big hotels at Metrotown and the Burnaby library.
They could even just build from Kemp St. south.

[GilmoreStation]

Metrotown will remain the Downtown of Burnaby for the forseeable future. Reason is simply, Metrotown mall still bring the most tax dollars to the City compared to any other retail in the City.

[logan5]

The massive barrier that is Metrotown Mall negates any chance of Metrotown becoming a true downtown. There is no street grid in Metrotown, and a tight street grid is what's needed in order to have walk-able streets.

Brentwood on the other hand does have decent street grid that would provide easy access to transit and retail. Access to a street such as Dawson, which has far more potential than Beresford as a high street.

Metrotown may get the better civic amenities, but ultimately, Brentwood will be far more pedestrian friendly

[urbancanadian]

I'm really having a hard time picturing where a convention centre could go in the Metrotown area...

Convention centres are extremely pedestrian-unfriendly and should be kept to the "edge" of the town centre if possible. In most cities, the area around a convention centre is pretty dead - they usually create a bit of a void of activity. Our convention centre downtown is an oddball in that it hasn't created the same problems that others do.

For one, it fits in well with its surroundings. Most of the building is actually below street level due to the escarpment, so you don't have this overbearing structure like you do with BC Place, for example. It's also at the edge of downtown (literally), so it's not blocking off any streets, or any "flow" of people. And of course, it's surrounded by the Seawall, which happens to be one of the city's most popular areas for bikes and pedestrians.

-------------------------

Anyway, I can't see it being south of Beresford, which is heavily residential. Maybe consolidate the little Maywood school with the adjacent low-rises?

Otherwise, I can only really see it being along Kingsway or Willingdon. There is officedweller's idea along Willingdon, which, if it includes the Esso block, could be a nice location. Same goes for the Old Orchard site, which could also be combined with the Earl's site. There's also the retail/office complex on the SE corner of Kingsway & Nelson, but that's getting pretty far from the SkyTrain station.

The Sears property is also quite far, but it's pretty central along Kingsway, so it could be a good choice. If Burnaby is looking at building this thing in the near-ish term, then this might well be the site, since it appears to be the only one that's really in play at the moment.

Here's a quick map of the locations I mentioned. BLUE = Old Orchard/Earl's; ORANGE = OD's site; YELLOW = Maywood School; RED = Sears; GREEN = SE Kingsway & Nelson.

[urbancanadian]

I'll also mention that Burnaby is probably the thriftiest municipality in the entire region so they'll likely be spending the absolute minimum that they have to, which means that they'll almost certainly partner with a residential developer to save on costs. That makes me believe that they're looking at the Sears property. But you never know. They're also notoriously SLOW when it comes to municipal projects so any property could be under development by that time (lol).

And to add to officedweller's post - thought I'd mention that Burnaby is also planning an extension to Kingsborough Street, which I marked in white on the map below. It's shockingly the only road connection they have planned in the current area plan.

[cornholio]

4330 Kingsway is the current Metro Vancouver owned office building that will be vacated next year as everything gets moved over to the new Metrotower 3 office building . Just west of the gas station on Willingdon. Next year it will be empty and up for sale. 4330 Kingsway

This is what Corrigan had to say.

Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan said the city will be working with Metro Vancouver on the sale of the old building and its future land uses before it goes on the market.

“This is to all of our advantages to make sure they’re maximizing the profit they can make out of the building, or at least making sure they’re able to recoup their money,” he said.

And Corrigan, like Moore, is confident the location will be a big selling point for the property.

While the mayor said the city has no interest in purchasing the building, he suggested in the long run it will probably become part of a bigger development.

“We don’t think it will sit there idle; it’s too big of an investment,” Corrigan said. “I think it’s such an important location in what is in essence a gateway to Metrotown.”

With the gas station in play and a older dead weight office building that will be "difficult" to lease I think this is the area the city of Burnaby is going to be looking at.

[urbancanadian]

Good catch. That could make sense. I keep forgetting that Patterson Station is right there - and it would be closer to this location (or anything west of Willingdon).

Nice straight lines by the way.

[officedweller]

Cool.

The other advantage of that area is that Kingsborough is / will be the closest thing to a walkable retail street in the area for the convention crowds.

Maybe 4330 Kingsway will expand onto the Esso site and the convention centre built across Kingsborough to the south (lower building adjacent to the condo).
I think a convention centre itself would be too short for Kingsway.

I think the Sears site is too far away from SkyTrain, and if Concord is planning towers, barring a massive transfer slab (i.e. Spectrum Costco) it would be hard to get enough column-free or core-free space for a convention centre with towers above.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logan5

The massive barrier that is Metrotown Mall negates any chance of Metrotown becoming a true downtown. There is no street grid in Metrotown, and a tight street grid is what's needed in order to have walk-able streets.

Brentwood on the other hand does have decent street grid that would provide easy access to transit and retail. Access to a street such as Dawson, which has far more potential than Beresford as a high street.

Metrotown may get the better civic amenities, but ultimately, Brentwood will be far more pedestrian friendly

There are plenty of street grid neighbourhoods surrounding the mall. These would eventually become high-density streets like your definition of a downtown. If you like walkable streets, why fret about Metrotown? Just imagine that the interior of the mall are covered pedestrian streets, and there are tons of pedestrians there walking around.

There are many forms of "downtown", Metrotown is emerging as a new type: one that grows from a former suburb mall.

[LeftCoaster]

Funny you guys are talking about Kingsway and streetgrids. Very timely article just popped up in my newsfeed:

Burnaby seeks to make a downtown out of Metrotown

Plan, still in its early stages, calls for an up zoning of Kingsway

Metrotown's sterility may be rooted in the fact that the neighbourhood is literally named after a 1960s urban planning term. When regional planners prepared a study on Burnaby, they referred to it as the city’s “metro town” and it stuck. Four decades later and the city of Burnaby wants to evolve Metrotown into a downtown, hence it’s in the early days of outlining a long-term plan to re-urbanize the area.

“[This plan] for Metrotown provides the opportunity to create a true downtown for Burnaby; one that enables the highest order of land use and development,” writes Lou Pelletier, director of planning and building for the city of Burnaby in his introduction to the report. It was introduced to council’s planning committee on Tuesday, and now city staff are seeking preliminary approval from council to allow for public consultation over the summer. A final draft development plan would go before council again in the fall.

If approved, the plan would remake the streetscape of Kingsway, clearing the way for the redevelopment of blocks of single-use office complexes, malls and residential towers for mixed-use development, more akin to downtown New Westminster or Vancouver. In the blocks behind Kingsway, it would allow for a swath of low-rise apartment blocks to be replaced by four-to-12-storey towers (that process has already begun) and make the area more pedestrian friendly with new plazas and the like. The goal, the plan states, is “to establish an exciting, inclusive, and sustainable downtown for Burnaby; one comprised of well-connected neighbourhoods that provide a sense of place and community identity."

It’s been almost 40 years since Burnaby adopted its long-term development plan for the Metrotown area in 1977. Over the following two decades, a series of malls—most prominently Metropolis at Metrotown—were developed, as Kingsway was lined with towers set back from the streets, with overpasses for pedestrians at certain points (rare in other city centers centres in the region). And in those intervening years a lot happened; first the construction of the SkyTrain in 1985, and then a series of long-term visions adopted by the city—its 1995 Transportation Plan, its 1998 Official Community Plan and the 2011 Regional Growth Strategy—which didn’t always correspond with changes to Metrotown’s plan. That final plan called for Burnaby to increase its population by 125,000 over the next 25 years, and Metrotown will be expected to accommodate “a significant component of the city’s residential and commercial growth.”

http://www.bcbusiness.ca/real-estate...t-of-metrotown

Sounds like the city of Burnaby itself sure sees Metrotown as the downtown of Burnaby.

[Jebby]

Ideally Metropolis should be redeveloped piecemeal and given a shape more like Brentwood (or even Station Square next door) and become a mall but focused on high streets. It would be great if all the high streets were pedestrian only and covered in a big glass canopy. That would make the area so much more walkable and also quite iconic.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Funny you guys are talking about Kingsway and streetgrids. Very timely article just popped up in my newsfeed:


http://www.bcbusiness.ca/real-estate...t-of-metrotown

Sounds like the city of Burnaby itself sure sees Metrotown as the downtown of Burnaby.

Again, more progressive news coming out of Burnaby. Three cheers!

p.s. And did I hear more "malls"?