ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[stitchuno]

^ the zoom in feature of that map makes a world of difference in seeing what the "building blocks" of this city could have been. i find it really hard to believe the people who are arguing that the freeways themselves bring all this wonderful development to our city. have you all ever been to more dense cities that are full of development as well??? i feel like these perspectivies are very atlanta centric when all of the understanding of urban environments revolves around getting place to place the fastest by AUTOMOBILE.

highways do bring development. this is true and you can see it when a new highway is laced into less a developed area. however, when a highway tears through already existing urban fabric, i would argue that a negative effect would primarily would be felt. the reason why most of our downtowns in america experienced a decline in the 60s and 70s would because of these seas of asphalt. the freeways served as a way for people to escape rather than develop.

highways do have a place in this world; not just in our downtowns.

[Chris Creech]

Wow, I never realized that GA Tech used to have a formal quad (like Emory and most other universities). I'd always wondered about that. So the downtown connector actually went right through the heart of what was then GA Tech.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by Chris Creech

Wow, I never realized that GA Tech used to have a formal quad (like Emory and most other universities). I'd always wondered about that. So the downtown connector actually went right through the heart of what was then GA Tech.

That's not a quad, it's the area where the dorms are. It's still there. The highway was one block east.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Well, Dante, I've already explained very clearly why gigantic limited access highways should be placed on the periphery of existing urban areas rather than rammed right through the heart of them. I'm not going to repeat that again.

As to your suggestion that I should move to another town, I'd prefer to stay here and advocate for better policies. Sorry if that troubles you.

Better? What you are suggesting is getting rid of a highway network without providing any reasonable alternative. You are suggesting the disruption of an entire metropolitan region to create what? The highway is a one half block strip, you can have dozens of cute neo-urban neighborhoods inside the perimeter and not bother the highway or you can rip it apart and watch a cascading backlash.

By the way, I somehow assumed you'd realize that the photo from 60 years ago wasn't intended to compare the number of buildings we have today, but to demonstrate the level of connectivity we lost.

Well obviously. I think you missed that my point wasn't about the number of buildings, it was about the layout. A 60 year old neighborhood might have connected to all of the neighborhoods near it but did it connect with the region as a whole? The answer is no. Atlanta is to serve as the regional hub and so it needs a connection to the region. The more destructive things in terms of breaking the urban fabric might be the extensive rail yards. West of the major rail line is almost undeveloped completely.

Actually, this image sort of proves the opposite. What you have is a great underdevelopment of prime downtown parcels, because no one wants to be next to the interstate. On the bottom side you have a lowrise discount hotel against the interstate, where a block away you have the Hilton. On the top side you have a lowrent apartment building and a small midrise, both older undesirable buildings on lots not likely to be redeveloped because of the proximity to the interstate.

I was trying to show that the interstate did not cut apart the neighborhood not whether or not it was an impetus for low-income development. While I agree that property on the interstate is not the most desirable, that doesn't exclude the possibility of using other means to diminish its negative impact. I think that particular block shows one way of managing connectivity. I think 5th street shows one way of managing desirability (if a little overdone). I think 17th street shows a way to create hype despite location.

Okay, I agree that the interstates certainly allowed for more development, but I think trying to promote them as driving scenic beauty and diversity in the area is a bit much.

While you agree that the interstates increased development, my point is a large number of developments in a reasonably high land value area can only yield scenery and diversity if only because of the rate of redevelopment.

i feel like these perspectivies are very atlanta centric when all of the understanding of urban environments revolves around getting place to place the fastest by AUTOMOBILE.

Would you suggest another way a majority of Atanta's people could feasibly get around? Not to be rude or anything, but the reality is that Atlantians can never really give up their cars in the coming years except in limited cases.

highways do bring development. this is true and you can see it when a new highway is laced into less a developed area. however, when a highway tears through already existing urban fabric, i would argue that a negative effect would primarily would be felt. the reason why most of our downtowns in america experienced a decline in the 60s and 70s would because of these seas of asphalt. the freeways served as a way for people to escape rather than develop.

There is the flight argument again. Yes people left the city mostly because they could and they didn't want to be around the poor or other ethnic groups. That speaks to social and economic issues not so much transportation design. The highways gave the people freedom and this is what they did with it. Now, as the society heals, people are starting to come back, but no one is forcing anyone to leave or stay as so it should be. We have cars and we have highspeed roadways. That gave people choices.

Now it is mostly too expensive to live intown for middle-class Americans because of the huge convenience. If you have a family and you want a cheap house on cheap land in a good school district, your first choice is the suburbs, your last choice is Atlanta. I think we should work on the problems the inner city faces instead of blaming the highways for people trying to get out.

[AtlMidtowner]

Although there may be a legitimate emotional debate about freesways desirablitily, I dont see how any intelligent person can possibly argue the freesways havent brought prosperity to Atlanta and any other city, which of course includes the downtown, midtown and other areas within the actual city limits of Atlanta north, south east and west of the city.

Quick accessbility to all parts of the city and the entire metro area is essential, whether it is in the form of limited access highways or a public transportation system. As succesful public transportation systems are almost non-existant in the USA, our highways are absolutely essential. What business would possibly locate their citywide business in any area other than quick accessbility to both clients and employees? This is the case for downtown as it is in Alpharetta or Marietta. I think some forumers here have never truly been in the position of establishing successful business or making multi-million dollar real estate investments. If you were investing several million dollars per investment, I promise you, you would not have such utterly absurd concept that our limited access highways are not positive constributors to the success of virtually every major US city. None of the developer currently building in the current Midtown and downtown boom would even consider investing here unless there were easy accessibility.

I have been buying and selling office buildings in Atlanta for the past ten years. Just get a map of Dorey's CLS, and you will see, office buildings are ALWAYS LOCATED NEAR LIMITED ACCESS HIGHWAYS. When I lease my space, that is always one of the first questions; therefore, I as virtually any reasonably intelligent real estate investor and developer, will only buy and develop land close to limited access highways, again that applies to downtown as well as any other area. Its always absolutely essential. Anyone who believes otherwise is just plain naive (and that is a kind word).

If you want an area to boom, build a limited access highway (or a Marta station), and developers like me will build small strip shopping centers and office building and others will build houses.

We DO NOT HAVE A REAL PUBLIC TRANSOPORTION SYSTEM, and as our population density is far too low, there is virtually NO CHANCE and totally unlrealistic that we will have a real truly succesful public transportation system in Atlanta, or virtually any US city in our lifetimte. Our standard of living and convenience is much higher than that of my uncles, aunts and cousins in Germany, and you will never be able to expect well-to-do Atlantan to get in bus, or even on a trolley or tram.

If you want downtown and Midtown Atlanta to go bust, shut down the connector.

One very postive effect of the connector is that it physically separate downtown Atlanta from some very low income areas of east Atlanta, which adds safety to the commuters working in downtown and midtown. As I posted before, most major cities of the world are divided by rivers, so I dont see the different between a flow of water and flow of traffic in terms of slicing a city. And I just drove by the connections between Midtown and downtown, and physically, it is seamless. If there werent a highway below, there would be a handful of extra buildings!!

When I am on Roswell Road by 285, you better believe it, that when I drive home, I take 285 and then i-75. It NEVER would occur to me to take Roswell Road and then Peachtree Road to 14th Street rather than the freeways.

I honestly believe that some of the forumers are against freeways are people that are simply physically afraid in their normal life to be on highway with 8 to 14 lanes of traffic. Many people are simple emotionally overwhelmed by this and become stressed by highways with high traffic, even though it is actually far more efficient and faster. (I have employees that live in Kennessaw that would rather crawl down Cobb Parkway at 25mph and get stuck in one red light after another than take I-75 in the morning at 25-45mph....its just not rational!)

So much for transportation, I think inquiring and finding out and sharing info about our highrises is much more fun and we will have less disagreement. Today I looked out my window and saw them digging on the property for the LUXE! I cant wait to see that building starting coming out of the ground....there are now 5 condos building under construction in view of my condo (1010 Piedmont, Onyx, Luxe, Aqua and Viewpoint!)

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

One very postive effect of the connector is that it physically separate downtown Atlanta from some very low income areas of east Atlanta, which adds safety to the commuters working in downtown and midtown.

But many would argue that the separation you speak of us has actually caused those neighborhoods to spiral downward.

[dante2308]

AtlMidtowner, thank you for a realistic assessment of the situation from someone in the business of trading. The connector isn't an extra appendage we can just get rid of, it's a life-giving artery that has shaped the boom that is Atlanta.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Andrea

You freeway lovers slay me. I guess if I decide to take a job in Alpharetta and give myself a little elbow room, y'all won't mind a bit if we run about 8 lanes of limited access concrete through your neighborhood. (And use your tax money to pay for it, of course).

You know, the rivers of commerce and all. Just a little something to make it easier for us to get around.

Funny old quote. There are 8 lanes of limited access concrete running through Alpharetta and no one complains. Most people out there were ecstatic when it went from 4 to 8 this year and no one lost property. I wonder what Alpharetta would be like if GA400 didn't exist. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't double in population every weekday due to commuting. I'm also pretty sure it wouldn't be a major job center at all.

Geez no one is cutting through neighborhoods anymore around Atlanta. Enough tears for the 70s.

[Teshadoh]

doh

[Teshadoh]

Because Alpharetta has zoned all or most adjoining property along GA 400 as commercial or industrial. Why should any resident complain about a highway that has very little effect on their immediate resident surroundings?

And you are right - Alpharetta wouldn't be an edge city if it weren't for GA 400. That would have been nice.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Yes people left the city mostly because they could and they didn't want to be around the poor or other ethnic groups. That speaks to social and economic issues not so much transportation design. The highways gave the people freedom and this is what they did with it. Now, as the society heals, people are starting to come back, but no one is forcing anyone to leave or stay as so it should be. We have cars and we have highspeed roadways. That gave people choices.

Now it is mostly too expensive to live intown for middle-class Americans because of the huge convenience. If you have a family and you want a cheap house on cheap land in a good school district, your first choice is the suburbs, your last choice is Atlanta. I think we should work on the problems the inner city faces instead of blaming the highways for people trying to get out.

I agree entirely with you on your view why some people left the city. Thanks to freeways, middle class with children who used to work intown could and did move to suburbs for cheaper land and larger houses because they had automobiles, while poor people couldn't afford to move out due to lack of transportation. Now intown is going through revitalization, the trend is showing being reversed. Intown living is still expensive though.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Teshadoh

Because Alpharetta has zoned all or most adjoining property along GA 400 as commercial or industrial. Why should any resident complain about a highway that has very little effect on their immediate resident surroundings?

And you are right - Alpharetta wouldn't be an edge city if it weren't for GA 400. That would have been nice.

Edge cities...you either hate em or love em. I'm sure someone likes that lifestyle. I don't disagree with anything you said BTW except the reason no one complained was because the highway was expanded into the median and affected nothing other than some wildflowers and rows of "do not mow" signs.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by Teshadoh

And you are right - Alpharetta wouldn't be an edge city if it weren't for GA 400. That would have been nice.

I don't know. We have our choices, and other people have theirs. I know plenty of people who could afford to live anywhere, and who have chosen Alpharetta and love it there. All of them happen to enjoy horses -- but unenlightened growth cruelly tore those magnificent beasts from Atlanta's urban fabric! (Sorry, all this anti-freeway talk has gotten to me.) It's really all about choices, and the beauty of Atlanta is that it offers its people so many.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by dante2308

What you are suggesting is getting rid of a highway network without providing any reasonable alternative.

it's obvious that she's suggesting a return to the previous, and more well connected grid.

You are suggesting the disruption of an entire metropolitan region to create what? The highway is a one half block strip, you can have dozens of cute neo-urban neighborhoods inside the perimeter and not bother the highway or you can rip it apart and watch a cascading backlash.

opinions aren't fact! these are opposing eras of thought, and i seriously doubt anyone will ever convince you otherwise. though i still think there's not yet enough critical mass to do what's being suggesting, at some point there will be, all in the name of valuable land that can be reclaimed and/or for beautification. very few people find the connector to be a thing of beauty... it's utilitarian at best, but like a jet engine always on the verge of exploding due to bad design and planning.

Would you suggest another way a majority of Atanta's people could feasibly get around? Not to be rude or anything, but the reality is that Atlantians can never really give up their cars in the coming years except in limited cases.

they can certainly give up their cars when heading to the core of the region, or get off a currently bottlenecked freeway and instead make their route on an improved grid network as mentioned above.

Originally Posted by atlmidtowner

Quick accessbility to all parts of the city and the entire metro area is essential, whether it is in the form of limited access highways or a public transportation system. As succesful public transportation systems are almost non-existant in the USA, our highways are absolutely essential. What business would possibly locate their citywide business in any area other than quick accessbility to both clients and employees? This is the case for downtown as it is in Alpharetta or Marietta. I think some forumers here have never truly been in the position of establishing successful business or making multi-million dollar real estate investments. If you were investing several million dollars per investment, I promise you, you would not have such utterly absurd concept that our limited access highways are not positive constributors to the success of virtually every major US city. None of the developer currently building in the current Midtown and downtown boom would even consider investing here unless there were easy accessibility.

how many people living in the cbd of a city really need to get around an entire metro at a moments notice? sure you might, but there are plenty of others who follow a set pattern of commuting and traveling. it seems as if you are basing your arguments on a general pro or anti-freeway stance - not the case at all, its just that there are those of us who despise the fact that there's one "rammed" right through the heart of our city, when it could be reduced, relocated or hidden altogether. the comparison to a natural body of water is shortsighted, as with the former, people planned around said obstacle whereas with the other it's an afterthought. it really is a division, an eyesore, and even at such a mega-width it rarely works as well as anyone hoped.

If you want an area to boom, build a limited access highway (or a Marta station), and developers like me will build small strip shopping centers and office building and others will build houses.

boo! this totally fits into the whole smart versus status quo development argument on these boards.

We DO NOT HAVE A REAL PUBLIC TRANSOPORTION SYSTEM, and as our population density is far too low, there is virtually NO CHANCE and totally unlrealistic that we will have a real truly succesful public transportation system in Atlanta, or virtually any US city in our lifetimte. Our standard of living and convenience is much higher than that of my uncles, aunts and cousins in Germany, and you will never be able to expect well-to-do Atlantan to get in bus, or even on a trolley or tram.

man that's some hyperbole if i ever read it... there are plenty of us cities with decent networks. nothing insane like tokyo, but then again almost none of our cities are quite that large. boston, nyc, philly, dc/baltimore, chicago, sf all offer good to great systems which offer choices some desperately desire. as far as atlanta there are those who are planning for some major improvements and additions; beltline, peachtree tram, the beginnings of commuter rail... aubie, what was that statistic you'd found that compared the amount of traffic on one of the freeway routes to the ridership on one of the transit lines?

One very postive effect of the connector is that it physically separate downtown Atlanta from some very low income areas of east Atlanta, which adds safety to the commuters working in downtown and midtown. As I posted before, most major cities of the world are divided by rivers, so I dont see the different between a flow of water and flow of traffic in terms of slicing a city. And I just drove by the connections between Midtown and downtown, and physically, it is seamless. If there werent a highway below, there would be a handful of extra buildings!!

do i even need to jump into this argument? are you just trying to lay bait so the discussion is diverted?

I honestly believe that some of the forumers are against freeways are people that are simply physically afraid in their normal life to be on highway with 8 to 14 lanes of traffic. Many people are simple emotionally overwhelmed by this and become stressed by highways with high traffic, even though it is actually far more efficient and faster. (I have employees that live in Kennessaw that would rather crawl down Cobb Parkway at 25mph and get stuck in one red light after another than take I-75 in the morning at 25-45mph....its just not rational!)

i enjoy driving as much as the next guy - all three of my cars have been manuals and i enjoy being the asshole who zips around various "obstacles" on the freeway. (and i've got the driving record to back that claim up) i just don't think one of the widest freeways in the world has any place right in the center of everything. this is just an assertion that you probably won't ever agree with, as you don't see it from the same viewpoint.

you can have your choices, just try to imagine your route following a couple of miles or so along one of many gridded, widened streets (OOH, CHOICE!) before you got to the freeway entrance somewhere near buckhead or south of the city.

...round 13 *ding*ding*ding*

(sorry if it sounds like i'm trying to fight others battles for them [andrea] i can just tell when patience is wearing thin... the horse has been dead for awhile.)

[RobMidtowner]

Why don't we settle this argument by covering the interstate with bridge-parks and incorporating the parks into the land surrounding the interstate. I still think this is the only way to satisfy both parties here. Of course this is just a wish list and has no bearing over what (if anything) will actually happen, but for the sake of this argument, I think this is the best possible solution for everyone. Of course I'm just dreaming here and haven't actually done a cost-benefit analysis, but I can imagine this is roughly close to or less than the cost of demolishing and reaigning an interstate. Does anyone have objections to this?

[Fiorenza]

Does anyone have objections to this?

Maybe cost?

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Why don't we settle this argument by covering the interstate with bridge-parks and incorporating the parks into the land surrounding the interstate. I still think this is the only way to satisfy both parties here. Of course this is just a wish list and has no bearing over what (if anything) will actually happen, but for the sake of this argument, I think this is the best possible solution for everyone. Of course I'm just dreaming here and haven't actually done a cost-benefit analysis, but I can imagine this is roughly close to or less than the cost of demolishing and reaigning an interstate. Does anyone have objections to this?

I think the solution is somewhere in between, since the Downtown Connector is here to stay. There is no Utopia in real life, and budget constraints will always favor the possible over the wished for, so all major initiatives come down to compromises. I believe that eliminating the Connector is a misguided dream -- and it's just not going to happen. 95+% is a fairly decent landslide, and makes for a settled argument.

Atlanta has long since healed over the old wounds caused by the Connector, and like places all over the world have done throughout history, it has since become another place entirely. The old neighborhoods to which Andrea refers no longer exist in their old forms and boundaries, and Humpty Dumpty couldn't be "re-connected" if you tore out the freeway today. I am sure the grand avenues of Paris split a few old neighborhoods when they were built, but I never hear anyone call for their removal. The Downtown Connector predates most current Atlantans and an overwhelming number of forumers, so it is less an intrusion than it is now an integral part of Atlanta. It will stay, so what to do?

I think the 5th Street Bridge is a model for compromise which can provide wide, attractive and inviting east-west pedestrian flow (not just vehicular traffice) across our river. We're not going to bury the whole Connector, since that would be prohibitively expensive to build and to maintain. But a few more well-placed 5th Street-type bridges might be the best way to connect the two banks and encourage broad east-west avenues. In my opinion, 14th Street would be the place to start.

[Teshadoh]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

I don't know. We have our choices, and other people have theirs. I know plenty of people who could afford to live anywhere, and who have chosen Alpharetta and love it there. All of them happen to enjoy horses -- but unenlightened growth cruelly tore those magnificent beasts from Atlanta's urban fabric! (Sorry, all this anti-freeway talk has gotten to me.) It's really all about choices, and the beauty of Atlanta is that it offers its people so many.

I'm not talking about a residential suburb, but about becoming a commercial edge city - without GA 400. Alpharetta would likely develop to some degree as a residential suburb even without GA 400, though I couldn't imagine commuting on Roswell Hwy / Atlanta St / Roswell Rd to get to work at the Perimeter Center.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

The old neighborhoods to which Andrea refers no longer exist in their old forms and boundaries, and Humpty Dumpty couldn't be "re-connected" if you tore out the freeway today.

Good point. And Tech is responsible for probably doing more to harm the historic fabric than the highway did. Just look at all the streets, structures, and traditional urbanism that have been destroyed since that aerial was taken.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

Atlanta has long since healed over the old wounds caused by the Connector, and like places all over the world have done throughout history, it has since become another place entirely. The old neighborhoods to which Andrea refers no longer exist in their old forms and boundaries, and Humpty Dumpty couldn't be "re-connected" if you tore out the freeway today. I am sure the grand avenues of Paris split a few old neighborhoods when they were built, but I never hear anyone call for their removal. The Downtown Connector predates most current Atlantans and an overwhelming number of forumers, so it is less an intrusion than it is now an integral part of Atlanta. It will stay, so what to do?

Are you seriously going to compare the grand avenues of Paris with the downtown connector?