The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by smasher000

Is a streetcar mostly like a bus?

Varies from system to system imo. For e.g., the streetcar in Toronto is very much like a bus on rails. But nevertheless, it's still better than a bus.....and much bigger than a bus.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

Excluding M-Line's western extension, I'd say Hastings, it's very active along Hastings and it used to have a street car AFIK? Plus it'll help improve the DES. IMO it's the most logical next extension. With the burbs though, I highly doubt it'll be the next, and it may be unlikley that it's ever built.

I don't see a point to rewarding the outerlying communities for their rapid development of low density single family home developments with instantly giving them transit. They may eventually get it, but if we give it to them in the next 15 years it'll probably keep pushing development farther into the valley and it'll take a long time for those areas to densify to a point where they can make transit pay for itself. It's not like we're talking about geographically constrained municipalities here. Burnaby has densified along the Skytrain routes, but it doesn't have a lot of other places to grow. Surrey and Langley have plenty of space, and until they put some sort of policies in place to try to limit any growth to already urbanized areas, I think it's a waste to give them transit, cause they probably wont use it!

We should build up, not out!

South Burnaby has huge potential for growth and same with south Vancouver. Hell just the fraser lands are suposed to house 14,000 people or so in 20 years and that little chunk of land is tiny compared to all the vacant and under utilized land on the burnaby side which stretches from boundary all the way to prety much 22nd street station in new westminster. Thats why I feel that would be the best rapid transit line to be built after not to mention that it would conect Richmond, the airport and south van with everything east of it like new west tri cities surrey langley etc.

[Distill3d]

i'm going out on a lib here, but if the evergreen line is built, at a certain point, it pretty much follows the lougheed highway (highway 7) once it gets into Coquitlam. so in theory, wouldn't it be easy to make a line all the way out to Mission (assuming of course it follows the West Coast Express right of way), then over the bridge into Abbotsford (and then, with a prayer, and some careful planning, into Chilliwack)

few extra stops along the way (after coquitlam):

Pitt Meadows > Maple Ridge/Haney > Mission > Abbotsford Central

my pipe dream also includes:

Abbotsford Sumas > Yarrow > Vedder Crossing > Sardis > Chilliwack

i realise i may be dreaming, or this may be better left as an extension of the West Coast Express.

[mezzanine]

^ there are a few problems with population growth at Big Bend though -
I suspect it is on the fraser flood plain, the region is another patch of increasingly rare industrial land in the GVRD, a GVRD regional garbage incinerator is nearby and I *think* the rail line is still used frequently by industry (a low level bridge to Richmond juts out there).

I think fraserlands in vancouver by comparison has industrial neighbours that use their property less intensively, ie., less intrustion to residential. There is also more surrounding residential there and Champlain Mall/com. centre is nearby.

[BattleAxe]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

Excluding M-Line's western extension, I'd say Hastings, it's very active along Hastings and it used to have a street car AFIK? Plus it'll help improve the DES. IMO it's the most logical next extension. With the burbs though, I highly doubt it'll be the next, and it may be unlikley that it's ever built.

I don't see a point to rewarding the outerlying communities for their rapid development of low density single family home developments with instantly giving them transit. They may eventually get it, but if we give it to them in the next 15 years it'll probably keep pushing development farther into the valley and it'll take a long time for those areas to densify to a point where they can make transit pay for itself. It's not like we're talking about geographically constrained municipalities here. Burnaby has densified along the Skytrain routes, but it doesn't have a lot of other places to grow. Surrey and Langley have plenty of space, and until they put some sort of policies in place to try to limit any growth to already urbanized areas, I think it's a waste to give them transit, cause they probably wont use it!

We should build up, not out!

The way i see it is that people in Surrey have been contributing millions upon millions of tax dollars towards the GVRD and Translink for many years. Rapid Transit has been terrible out here for a very long time. Surrey is the second largest city in B.C. Housing prices are too high in north of the Fraser River and are getting to be quite expensive in Surrey. First time home buyers are being priced out of the Vancouver, Burnaby and Richmond markets, so i wouldn't expect the housing market south of the Fraser to slow down anytime soon. People in Surrey have contributed and supported Sky Train expansion north of the Fraser for years, now its our turn to be on the receiving end and have some of our own tax dollars invested here in Surrey. Its also time for people to start thinking on a regional basis and stop thinking on a city to city basis. The GVRD needs to opperate all together as one and we need to find a way to move people from all over the GVRD as quikly and efficiently as we can. The economy of the region doesn't have boundries. So i say that your remark about " not rewarding " Surrey is absolutely rediculous and extremely ignorant. We are taxpayers aswell, and before you go writing a post like that, you should have a better understanding as to the economics of the region.

Oh and one last thing, every morning if you take the skytrain out of Surrey as i did when i was attending Vancouver Community college 7 years ago, every Sky Train car was full before getting to Columbia Street Station. That was 7 years ago, and i hear that its far more busy today. So to say that people out here will not use the Sky Train system, clearly shows that you have no clue about what you are saying.

[SFUVancouver]

Transit south of the Fraser is woeful and the abrupt end of the Expo Line at King George station is unforgivable. Citizens south of the Fraser have been contributing operational revenue to Translink without seeing enough service. However I caution against interpreting ongoing contributions of operating revenue as being the same as buying into the capital budget for major projects.

Translink has two ledgers and everything we put into Translink ends up being divided into these two, with operational receiving nearly all of it. The operational ledger is mostly apolitical. It simply serves to fund what has come out of the capital budget in the past. The capital budget, on the other hand is explicitly political. The capital budget decides what goes where and then the operational budget is adjusted to fund the new service hours. However most of the capital budget does not come from the standard Translink revenue streams like fares, ads, property taxes, etc., but rather from borrowing or transfers from the Province or Federal Government. These ad hoc contributions from senior government are the result of political calculations and tend to gravitate towards high-profile projects like SkyTrain, the new electric trolleys, large bulk purchases of buses, etc.

The political reality is that the municipalities north of the Fraser get more political attention from government for the time being. While unfair, it does correspond to these areas having greater transit ridership while also being closer to the City of Vancouver, Western Canada's flagship city.

Yes, the SkyTrains coming out of Surrey are full but the trains arriving north of the Fraser, let alone in Vancouver, are full and everybody thereafter has to cram onto full trains. The 99 B-line has 60,000+ riders a day and routinely pass entire stops full of people despite running almost bumper to bumper. This is why more trains have been ordered and why the Broadway Rapid Transit extension is being planned. But we only got into this position because of two decades of investment in service in Vancouver and Burnaby, and not entirely because people in these cities are more innately inclined to use transit.

It is true that the City of Vancouver is better designed to accommodate and foster transit but the same cannot be said for Burnaby, yet the SkyTrain overcomes the crippling limitations an automobile-scale city. Once you're off the SkyTrain corridors, with the exception of the streetcar-suburb-scaled Hastings corridor, ridership in Burnaby is nothing to be impressed with. Therefore it is the investment in infrastructure that matters most.

This brings this rambling post back to the absurdity of SkyTrain ending at King George and the politics of the capital budget. We need to build the new lines in Vancouver where they are desperately needed and help foster a stronger provincial economy, but they are also absolutely needed in the surrounding municipalities, whether SkyTrain, LRT, BRT, or streetcars. We need to grow the capital budget of Translink to let more projects go ahead.

We need to also increase the pressure from citizens South of the Fraser to let their politicians understand that they need to invest in new service and infrastructure. It'll probably mean higher borrowing costs and possibly higher taxes but we need to do it if for no other reason than to better prepare the automobile-scaled parts of our region for the crippling realities of peak oil which will keep raising transportation costs. These communities are already vulnerable to price shocks in energy in a way that Vancouver or even Burnaby is not.

[Jared]

I voted Vancouver - Other, although technically it wouldnt just be Vancouver. I'd like to see something run E-W in South Vancouver, either along Marine Drive or 41st, which could also connect the Canada line to the Expo line.


A SkyTrain extention to Guilford may also be a good idea depending on how the area develops.


Langley/Abbotsford are too far to be time effective for SkyTrain. Commuter rail would be better in this situation.

[crazyjoeda]

I think the next Transit Line after Broadway/NE should be an extention of the Expo Line towards Newton, I see that as a relatively inexpensive route with a lot of potential.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

I think the next Transit Line after Broadway/NE should be an extention of the Expo Line towards Newton, I see that as a relatively inexpensive route with a lot of potential.

Or Expo Line can go to Guildford and then swing south towards Fleetwood.
Newton can be one of the major stations for the 2nd WCE line towards Abbotsford. Newton and King George stns can be connected by a B-Line type (which can itself run from White Rock to Surrey Central).

[Hot Rod]

^ I agree Henry.

But perhaps Expo could split and have one direction go toward Guildford and the other continue going south then maybe hook into Delta/WR.

[SpongeG]

i think it would be better to go to guildford than over the #1 to port kells and back down into langley over to cloverdale and back up towards newton and over to strawberry hill/north delta and either back to surrey centre or scott road - creating a big circle route through surrey/langley/north delta

not all people on transit are wanting or needint go go to downtown vancouver

[Bert]

I think the city of Surrey might be releasing something sometime soon. According to this TOR for Surrey Centre transportation servicing, the final report was due by July 2007.

[fever]

Here's a map of the proposals so far (with some of my ideas thrown in).. you could add a connection between Guildford and Fleetwood as well, but it seems like too much of a roundabout route

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&...dbca127da5d935

[deasine]

I don't live in Surrey, but this is what I see if there should be an extension of SkyTrain:



Of course, Guilford Town Centre Can be extended.

[mr.x]

^ i'm not sure if that's a good idea. you'd lower the overall system frequency even more (considering the Expo Line's frequency is already split in two with the M-Line at Columbia).

not to mention that most of SkyTrain's traffic in Surrey is headed north of the Fraser, you'd have a lot of empty trains and crowded platforms. i don't think the Guildford to 72 Avenue spur line is a good idea.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ i'm not sure if that's a good idea. you'd lower the overall system frequency even more (considering the Expo Line's frequency is already split in two with the M-Line at Columbia).

not to mention that most of SkyTrain's traffic in Surrey is headed north of the Fraser, you'd have a lot of empty trains and crowded platforms. i don't think the Guildford to 72 Avenue spur line is a good idea.

I think you've got it backwards. The expo line south of the Fraser will never be at 100% capacity as long as it is interlined with the M-Line. By adding a train that doesn't cross the fraser, we would be ADDING capacity and improving frequencies within Surrey, not take it away.

There are a LOT of people who travel just from Guildford to Surrey Central and vice versa. There's a bus every few minutes on 104th. Guildford would become a new terminus for some of the Langley buses meaning they don't have to travel through more traffic, and many Langley residents aren't going downtown.

[Nutterbug]

Here's my vision of how a Guildford spur (in orange) can be worked into the system, provided the Evergreen is made a Skytrain.

Originally Posted by deasine

Of course, Guilford Town Centre Can be extended.

NO MORE EASTWARD SPRAWL!!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Nutterbug

Here's my vision of how a Guildford spur (in orange) can be worked into the system, provided the Evergreen is made a Skytrain.





NO MORE EASTWARD SPRAWL!!

BEST. MAP. EVER.

Seriously. I love it.

Would you have the trains reverse directions at Columbia? It seems that would be FAR TOO confusing, even for regular riders. I mean, there are still people who get confused at how the M-Line and Expo lines work.

[The_Henry_Man]

I think ideally, there shouldn't be any interlining of two or more lines on the same route.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by tintinium

BEST. MAP. EVER.

Seriously. I love it.

Would you have the trains reverse directions at Columbia? It seems that would be FAR TOO confusing, even for regular riders. I mean, there are still people who get confused at how the M-Line and Expo lines work.

Why not? I'm sure the people will eventually get used to it.

What's more, the green and orange lines can branch apart at Coquitlam Station to one going towards PoCo and the other going towards Douglas College.