CFL in the Maritimes

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by newflyer

First off Ottawa has already been granted a conditional expansion team a couple months back, with a stadium as the only stumbling block to overcome.

Secondly:

CFL Expansion team: $5 - 6 million

NHL Expansion team: $150 million

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

The bottom line is Quebec will try to get built a new arena first than a CFL stadium....

Quebec could be a success story but, at the end of the day, Université Laval stadium does not meet the CFL requirement.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by newflyer

The fact is LA will get a team long before Toronto will even be mentioned. The NFL is completely aware that its main revenue stream is big US Network TV and Toronto adds little to nothing in that category. In fact a Canadian team (say Toronto) will draw lower US TV ratings than 2 US teams facing off on American TV, as MLB has proven.

A NFL franchise might move to LA sooner than we think... and this could be the Bills.

Look at this: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=149560

[kirjtc2]

The NFL (or at least various team owners) seems content using LA as leverage to move their teams there if they don't get their way holding governments ransom for whatever they want. See: Bills, Vikings, Chargers, Raiders, Colts, Saints, Cardinals, 49ers.

I'm not sure the people of LA even want a team.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

The NFL (or at least various team owners) seems content using LA as leverage to move their teams there if they don't get their way holding governments ransom for whatever they want. See: Bills, Vikings, Chargers, Raiders, Colts, Saints, Cardinals, 49ers.

I'm not sure the people of LA even want a team.

The NFL wants back into the LA market, as it is the second biggest TV market in the US. It would increase NFL TV ratings if LA had a team playing ever weekend. A NYC vs LA Superbowl would be a wet dream for any network covering the game.

Granted not all people in LA want an NFL team, but that would be true for any sports franchise in any city. Not everyone is into sports.

[MonctonRad]

Copied from the Moncton thread

CFL wants to discuss future in Moncton

Canadaeast news service
Published Saturday August 9th, 2008
Mayor plans to call league to discuss expansion options
A13

The commissioner of the Canadian Football League says the climate is right for expansion, and he looks forward to a call from Moncton's mayor to discuss it.

It's just a matter of finding a city with a stadium and a strong local financial backer to intrigue the league to Atlantic Canada, says Mark Cohon.

According to Moncton North MLA Mike Murphy, the Hub City has a stadium coming, it knows the financial resources are there, and the time is now right for the city to again push for a team.

The mayor of Moncton says he has plans to give Cohon a call.

"I think there is an argument to be made that a CFL team can be successful here," said George LeBlanc. "I will be taking the opportunity sometime down the road to talk to these folks and see if there is an opportunity for that here in Moncton."

Cohon says the league is in a position to look at expansion with last year's average stadium attendance reaching its highest since 1983. Television ratings are up 19 per cent so far this season.

"We are now going to start really thinking about what are the new opportunities for the league and expansion is definitely on our agenda and is something we need to explore," said Cohon. "I am looking forward to the mayor calling me."

The CFL last tested the waters for possible expansion into the Maritimes in 2005 with an exhibition game held in Halifax.

At that time, former commissioner Tom Wright was looking at the feasibility of adding a 10th CFL franchise by 2008, but only if a 25,000-seat stadium was in place and the league was convinced private financial backers were in place.

The dream died when financial instability hit other teams in the league in 2006 which culminated in the indefinite suspension of the Ottawa Renegades.

In March of this year the CFL granted an expansion team back to the nation's capital which will see a team return either in 2010 or 2011.

Cohon says the addition of a 10th team is again a possibility but only to a city with a stadium and the right local ownership.

"Those are the two key components that we have to find and if the mayor is interested in talking to me about those fronts I would be happy to talk to him," he said. "We are starting to think about what are the parameters of whether it's Moncton, whether it's Halifax or Quebec City, what would have to go into it."

An advocate for a team in 2005, Murphy believes Moncton is the only Atlantic Canada city where a team could be feasible noting its geographical location in the centre of the Maritime provinces.

He also said the reasons why a bid fell apart in 2005 is no longer a problem.

"When we had talks in 2005 there was no stadium, now there is going to be a stadium and we have proven as a city we can attract crowds," said Murphy. "It's all there now, there's just no reason not to do it."

April's announcement to expand the plans for an outdoor arena set to welcome the World Junior Championships in track and field in 2010 will bring a stadium with a capacity of up to 20,000 spectators to the Université de Moncton.

Cohon said that stadium comes close to the 25,000 attendance needed for a CFL franchise to succeed.

It now has Murphy calling for the city to take charge to find financial backers and create the business plan to entice a league which is visible everywhere else in the country except Atlantic Canada.

"Who can step up to the plate and tell me it can't be done?" said Murphy. "It's not massive money. This is not the NFL."

The CFL began enforcing a salary cap of $4.05 million per team in 2007, a year after expanding active rosters to 42 players. The league minimum salary is $39,000.

Murphy said the economic viability is there, as he was approached by business with interest in sponsorship in 2005.
_______________________________________________________________________


I wonder how easy it would be to increase the World Track and Field Stadium's capacity from 20,000 to 25,000 seats?

There are several people in the Moncton area with pockets deep enough to finance a CFL franchise, probably most notably Robert Irving.

This could happen...

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Copied from the Moncton thread

CFL wants to discuss future in Moncton

Canadaeast news service
Published Saturday August 9th, 2008
Mayor plans to call league to discuss expansion options
A13

The commissioner of the Canadian Football League says the climate is right for expansion, and he looks forward to a call from Moncton's mayor to discuss it.

It's just a matter of finding a city with a stadium and a strong local financial backer to intrigue the league to Atlantic Canada, says Mark Cohon.

According to Moncton North MLA Mike Murphy, the Hub City has a stadium coming, it knows the financial resources are there, and the time is now right for the city to again push for a team.

The mayor of Moncton says he has plans to give Cohon a call.

"I think there is an argument to be made that a CFL team can be successful here," said George LeBlanc. "I will be taking the opportunity sometime down the road to talk to these folks and see if there is an opportunity for that here in Moncton."

Cohon says the league is in a position to look at expansion with last year's average stadium attendance reaching its highest since 1983. Television ratings are up 19 per cent so far this season.

"We are now going to start really thinking about what are the new opportunities for the league and expansion is definitely on our agenda and is something we need to explore," said Cohon. "I am looking forward to the mayor calling me."

The CFL last tested the waters for possible expansion into the Maritimes in 2005 with an exhibition game held in Halifax.

At that time, former commissioner Tom Wright was looking at the feasibility of adding a 10th CFL franchise by 2008, but only if a 25,000-seat stadium was in place and the league was convinced private financial backers were in place.

The dream died when financial instability hit other teams in the league in 2006 which culminated in the indefinite suspension of the Ottawa Renegades.

In March of this year the CFL granted an expansion team back to the nation's capital which will see a team return either in 2010 or 2011.

Cohon says the addition of a 10th team is again a possibility but only to a city with a stadium and the right local ownership.

"Those are the two key components that we have to find and if the mayor is interested in talking to me about those fronts I would be happy to talk to him," he said. "We are starting to think about what are the parameters of whether it's Moncton, whether it's Halifax or Quebec City, what would have to go into it."

An advocate for a team in 2005, Murphy believes Moncton is the only Atlantic Canada city where a team could be feasible noting its geographical location in the centre of the Maritime provinces.

He also said the reasons why a bid fell apart in 2005 is no longer a problem.

"When we had talks in 2005 there was no stadium, now there is going to be a stadium and we have proven as a city we can attract crowds," said Murphy. "It's all there now, there's just no reason not to do it."

April's announcement to expand the plans for an outdoor arena set to welcome the World Junior Championships in track and field in 2010 will bring a stadium with a capacity of up to 20,000 spectators to the Université de Moncton.

Cohon said that stadium comes close to the 25,000 attendance needed for a CFL franchise to succeed.

It now has Murphy calling for the city to take charge to find financial backers and create the business plan to entice a league which is visible everywhere else in the country except Atlantic Canada.

"Who can step up to the plate and tell me it can't be done?" said Murphy. "It's not massive money. This is not the NFL."

The CFL began enforcing a salary cap of $4.05 million per team in 2007, a year after expanding active rosters to 42 players. The league minimum salary is $39,000.

Murphy said the economic viability is there, as he was approached by business with interest in sponsorship in 2005.
_______________________________________________________________________


I wonder how easy it would be to increase the World Track and Field Stadium's capacity from 20,000 to 25,000 seats?

There are several people in the Moncton area with pockets deep enough to finance a CFL franchise, probably most notably Robert Irving.

This could happen...

I honestly don't see it happening. There just isn't the population base.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I honestly don't see it happening. There just isn't the population base.

There is no question that if this were ever to happen, Moncton (126,000) would be by far the smallest city in the CFL. Regina, currently the smallest city in the CFL with a population of 201,000, is nearly twice the size.

Regina is a small market team that survives because the whole province supports the franchise. Rough Rider games are events where people drive for hours to go to a game. Since there are only eight home games in a season, this is not necessarily a hardship.

The Moncton market area is actually larger than Regina's. There are 1.5 million people within a three hour drive of Moncton. There are less than a million people in all of Saskatchewan.

Yes, it is possible, but only if a franchise in Moncton is adopted by the entire Maritime region. The same holds true for Halifax. Unless people from the rest of Nova Scotia and southern New Brunswick are willing to drive to Halifax to support the team, the franchise wouldn't fly.

Halifax does not have any particular advantage over Moncton on this issue. In fact, it is geographically remote from a large portion of the Maritime population. With the Commonwealth Games fiasco in Halifax and with Moncton hosting the World Junior Track & Field Championships in 2010, the worm has turned. We will have a stadium of near CFL calibre and you will not.

Yes, it could happen.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no question that if this were ever to happen, Moncton (126,000) would be by far the smallest city in the CFL. Regina, currently the smallest city in the CFL with a population of 201,000, is nearly twice the size.

Regina is a small market team that survives because the whole province supports the franchise. Rough Rider games are events where people drive for hours to go to a game. Since there are only eight home games in a season, this is not necessarily a hardship.

The Moncton market area is actually larger than Regina's. There are 1.5 million people within a three hour drive of Moncton. There are less than a million people in all of Saskatchewan.

Yes, it is possible, but only if a franchise in Moncton is adopted by the entire Maritime region. The same holds true for Halifax. Unless people from the rest of Nova Scotia and southern New Brunswick are willing to drive to Halifax to support the team, the franchise wouldn't fly.

Halifax does not have any particular advantage over Moncton on this issue. In fact, it is geographically remote from a large portion of the Maritime population. With the Commonwealth Games fiasco in Halifax and with Moncton hosting the World Junior Track & Field Championships in 2010, the worm has turned. We will have a stadium of near CFL calibre and you will not.

Yes, it could happen.

A team in Moncton would have to almost entirely depend on fans comming from other places. I just don't see it working. You need a season ticket base and I don't think a city of 126,000 can handle that. I really don't think there are enough die hard CFL fans in the Maritimes that would drive a couple a hours to see a game.

[JasonL-Moncton]

1.5 Million people within 2 hours and you don't think we can get 20-25,000 per game...once a week?

18 games a season, average regular ticket price $30 = $900 / season ticket (roughly)...I think we could find enough people to pay a grand for a season ticket.

Halifax had a CFL team already, founded in 1984 and folded in 1984...the Atlantic Schooners.

By next spring we will have a 20,000 seat stadium, Halifax will not.

People will drive from Northern NB to Moncton to see a game, they won't drive to Halifax as often, people will drive to Moncton from PEI but likely wouldn't to Halifax it makes more sense 'geographically' to locate a team in Moncton.

Financially a $4 Mill operating cap is not big money, $39,000 minimum salary is what some Call Center workers are making.

With the right financial backing (hey Robert Irving) it could be easily done in Moncton.

JL

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by JasonL-Moncton

1.5 Million people within 2 hours and you don't think we can get 20-25,000 per game...once a week?

18 games a season, average regular ticket price $30 = $900 / season ticket (roughly)...I think we could find enough people to pay a grand for a season ticket.

Halifax had a CFL team already, founded in 1984 and folded in 1984...the Atlantic Schooners.

By next spring we will have a 20,000 seat stadium, Halifax will not.

People will drive from Northern NB to Moncton to see a game, they won't drive to Halifax as often, people will drive to Moncton from PEI but likely wouldn't to Halifax it makes more sense 'geographically' to locate a team in Moncton.

Financially a $4 Mill operating cap is not big money, $39,000 minimum salary is what some Call Center workers are making.

With the right financial backing (hey Robert Irving) it could be easily done in Moncton.

JL

PEI and Northern NB not a large population draw really.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

PEI and Northern NB not a large population draw really.

Maybe not, but it's as big a population as some other CFL franchise cities (900,000+).



Wait a minute... can it be true... now I'm actually defending Monctonians?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Wait a minute... can it be true... now I'm actually defending Monctonians?

In New Brunswick, blood is thicker than water. We all live on the proper side of the Missiguash River. I want to hear from SJTOKO on this issue!!

[Joe]

Like Haliguy said, Moncton will depend on fans coming from elsewhere. Halifax with 3 times the population base wouldn't. Are potential owners willing to take that risk? Can they bank on 10,000 people travelling to Moncton for every home game? Remember this is not Western Canada where support for the CFL is the greatest.

[someone123]

The notion that Halifax is more "remote" than Moncton is pretty absurd. First of all, Halifax has more people than the Northern 2/3 or so of New Brunswick, and this is the area that supposedly would be willing to make the drive to Moncton but not to "remote" Halifax. As for the rest, many are more close to Halifax than to Moncton. Most of the population of NS for example is closer to Halifax and NS is half of the region's population. On top of this there is a huge difference in the size of the local populations.

I am not saying that the CFL wouldn't work in Moncton but the claims that it's an ideal strategic location while Halifax is "isolated" or something similar are just ridiculous. It would be akin to claiming that Toronto is "isolated" compared to London, Ontario, or Vancouver is "isolated" compared to some town inland (many of which would have much larger populations within a 3 hour drive).

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by Joe

Like Haliguy said, Moncton will depend on fans coming from elsewhere. Halifax with 3 times the population base wouldn't. Are potential owners willing to take that risk? Can they bank on 10,000 people travelling to Moncton for every home game? Remember this is not Western Canada where support for the CFL is the greatest.

The urban population of Halifax is only 280,000 which is far less than the "3 times" that you claim. The HRM population is 3 times greater than Moncton, but you have to acknowledge that Halifax's population area is really very large. Side-to-side HRM is 165km wide - if you drive 165km from Moncton, you'll find more people than live in Halifax. New Brunswick is far more integrated than you think, people travel between Fredericton and Saint John or between Saint John and Moncton without a second thought, so to assume that residents of other cities wouldn't go to Moncton for a game is predictably false.

Personally I don't think either city could support a CFL team right now, but to think that Halifax is the overwhelming choice ahead of New Brunswick (note that I'm calling it NB, not Moncton ) due to population concerns isn't quite fair.


(btw, I fully expect a response to this post by a Haligonian saying that my point is moot because the majority of NS's population lives within a couple hours of Halifax, and that they drive to HRM all the time, etc, etc.)

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by kwajo

The urban population of Halifax is only 280,000 which is far less than the "3 times" that you claim. The HRM population is 3 times greater than Moncton, but you have to acknowledge that Halifax's population area is really very large. Side-to-side HRM is 165km wide - if you drive 165km from Moncton, you'll find more people than live in Halifax. New Brunswick is far more integrated than you think, people travel between Fredericton and Saint John or between Saint John and Moncton without a second thought, so to assume that residents of other cities wouldn't go to Moncton for a game is predictably false.

Personally I don't think either city could support a CFL team right now, but to think that Halifax is the overwhelming choice ahead of New Brunswick (note that I'm calling it NB, not Moncton ) due to population concerns isn't quite fair.


(btw, I fully expect a response to this post by a Haligonian saying that my point is moot because the majority of NS's population lives within a couple hours of Halifax, and that they drive to HRM all the time, etc, etc.)

Eventhough HRM is a huge area only a very small fraction of those people live in the rural parts. People from the suburbs already drive everyday to work in Hali (some even from Truro) so i can see them coming in for games or just staying in town after work. And some people from other regions would come occassionally for a game (i.e. Chester, Truro, New Glasgow, Valley, ect). Assuming that regulars would be fine driving an hour that puts the reach out to Truro, Chester area, Windsor and Musquodoboit (?) which adds many more people. That puts the base here at over 400'000.

Compare this to Moncton where i will be generous and say Moncton, Saint John and PEI. So about 325'000 + 25'000 for outlying communities.

Why don't we just compramise and put a huge stadium in Truro?

Hmmm...350'000+ compared to 400'000+ i wonder where the smarter place to go is.

There's your expected response "kwajo"

[Joe]

This is from the 2006 census, community profiles. Halifax cma 372,858 . Pretty close to 3 times that I claim. After the novelty wears off do you think the influx of that many people is sustainable over the long run. At the end of the day this is something potential investors will determine. I also believe that neither city could support a team right now.

[mylesmalley]

Oy vey... nothing ever changes...

Everybody can pull their pants up now. Halifax is clearly a bigger city than Moncton. Can we at least agree on that?

That aside,

If the CFL thinks it can get a team going in altantic canada, and there's enough financial support, who cares how big a city it goes to? Let them spend their money where they want.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by kwajo

The urban population of Halifax is only 280,000 which is far less than the "3 times" that you claim. The HRM population is 3 times greater than Moncton, but you have to acknowledge that Halifax's population area is really very large. Side-to-side HRM is 165km wide - if you drive 165km from Moncton, you'll find more people than live in Halifax. New Brunswick is far more integrated than you think, people travel between Fredericton and Saint John or between Saint John and Moncton without a second thought, so to assume that residents of other cities wouldn't go to Moncton for a game is predictably false.

Personally I don't think either city could support a CFL team right now, but to think that Halifax is the overwhelming choice ahead of New Brunswick (note that I'm calling it NB, not Moncton ) due to population concerns isn't quite fair.


(btw, I fully expect a response to this post by a Haligonian saying that my point is moot because the majority of NS's population lives within a couple hours of Halifax, and that they drive to HRM all the time, etc, etc.)

Metro Halifax is 385,000 just like the metro popultaion of Moncton is 126,000.

That is three times the size.


If you include the surrounding counties including the Truro area it is a catchmant area of 500,000.

I do agree with you though that I don't think eithier city could support a team right now anyway.

[Dmajackson]

I don't think we could support for a few reasons but the main one being that Hali (maybe Moncton too) is a hockey town. No matter how horrible the Mooseheads are there is always a big supportive fan base. I don''t know if we can get the same thing for football.

Besides hockey was invented here so we "love" it. Can't say the same for football.