2017 CFL Season

[osmo]

Argos had every chance to get into BMO when it first being constructed. Nobody can be blamed for the Argos stadium folly from before other than them. No lack of trying of course but they fumbled multiple potential stadium situations from Lamport, to UofT, BMO, and York.

It was Tannenbaum actually who had the heavy hand in pushing the Argos away and pushing to pour the concrete so the stadium could never be modified correctly for Football.

Also, this time is not different for the Argos. For folks who are not local to Toronto, I will tell you, no amount of hype and press will supersede what took place while Toronto hosted the 100th Grey Cup. The city was abuzz with the Grey Cup and everyone knew it was in town. It was the rare window when the CFL was getting big traction in this oversaturated marketplace as a mega media and publicity pushed it to the top of the pile (It also didn't hurt that all other Toronto sports teams at the time were in the dumps - Leafs, Raptors, Jays, TFC, were all rebuilding or a joke).

The Argos hit a home run and win the game at home. The parade had tens of thousands of people attend. The Argos lead all the news coverage the next day here locally. People took notice.

All of this flatlined and did not carry over. Argos has worse attendance the next year versus last. That was the deciding factor to me that the market was dead, and realized there is no "Argos market" in 416 Toronto. There will be time to build it back up but the current ownership group is starting up from scratch. Don't listen to the media hyperbole in these articles.

Nothing was bigger for the Argos than that 100th Grey Cup win at home in this market in recent years and it still didn't do anything. Lots of work to be done.

Argos will take time to build back up and I also don't think that BMO will be the indefinite home of the Argos long term. 15 years from now the Argos won't be playing at BMO Field.

[esquire]

^ Sounds to me like the fanbase emerged but the club somehow failed to capitalize on it. The Argos have been in that situation before... they had one of the all time greatest CFL teams in the Flutie era (96-97) but people there barely noticed it was happening before it all came to an end, and the team was starting from scratch again.

Based on what we've heard about ownership there, they're actually probably better poised to build on fan interest now than they were before during the tight-fisted Braley era.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

No lack of trying of course but they fumbled multiple potential stadium situations from Lamport, to UofT, BMO, and York.

Lots of work to be done.

Argos will take time to build back up and I also don't think that BMO will be the indefinite home of the Argos long term. 15 years from now the Argos won't be playing at BMO Field.

The first part is baloney, they were screwed on UofT, and the rebuilt UofT and Lamport weren't practical capacity wise. I will agree they were authors of much of their own misfortune.

I agree that yesterday shouldn't be seen in any way other than what it was, a positive baby step forward. Even though most of the ticket surge was from Toronto fans before the opponent (Riders) was decided, the Riders (or it could have been Ottawa) took up a lot of tickets that Toronto fans might not have, conjecture on my part.

Unlike some of the TFC dreamers I'm not seeing any 50k stadiums in the future, so I am curious where and in what circumstances do you see the Argos?

[Acajack]

I know the question was not posed to me, but my sense is that if all goes well the Argos will eventually settle into a similar position that the local NHL club has in maybe 90% of the cities where the league is present in the U.S.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Sounds to me like the fanbase emerged but the club somehow failed to capitalize on it. The Argos have been in that situation before... they had one of the all time greatest CFL teams in the Flutie era (96-97) but people there barely noticed it was happening before it all came to an end, and the team was starting from scratch again.

Based on what we've heard about ownership there, they're actually probably better poised to build on fan interest now than they were before during the tight-fisted Braley era.

I think instead of hoping that of the 5-6million people in the GTA, Argo management was hoping 25-30k will come see the Argos, they have finally figured out they've got to find out who likes their product and how to find and introduce to people we think will like our product. And that's where TFC was genius. It's been said their fanbase doesn't go beyond the stadium but a full stadium offers a great perception exactly opposite to what the Argos had.

The Argos also have to make that great history relevant. If the population is so vacuous so as to deny that history that is troubling but if the Diversity program went so well, I don't see why those Pull Together hoodies couldn't sell either.

[UrbanClimate]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm not sure how it played out on tv but in person it didn't feel like 50 minutes of dud. Argo offense was awful in the first half but the defense were fabulous and entertaining. I suppose that doesn't excite some fans but the crowd was very much into it.

Agreed. I attended the game -- my first CFL game at BMO -- and the crowd was large (25,000), very loud, and engaged from start to finish, up and down out of their seats with every exciting play. And this was a hugely partisan crowd for Toronto -- there was one large section of Roughrider fans behind the Rider bench, and a sprinkle of green elsewhere, but otherwise it was all Argos.

I love the smell of damp, natural turf/grass throughout the stadium -- creates the perfect atmosphere for November football.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know the question was not posed to me, but my sense is that if all goes well the Argos will eventually settle into a similar position that the local NHL club has in maybe 90% of the cities where the league is present in the U.S.

Good analogy. I think it's fair to say that's where the CFL is generally in Canadian cities other than Toronto... they don't dominate the scene the way that NHL teams (and I suppose, the Jays) do, but they still have a solid fanbase and a presence that you can easily see. Which is not unlike, say, the Blackhawks in Chicago or the Kings in LA.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by elly63

The first part is baloney, they were screwed on UofT, and the rebuilt UofT and Lamport weren't practical capacity wise. I will agree they were authors of much of their own misfortune.

I agree that yesterday shouldn't be seen in any way other than what it was, a positive baby step forward. Even though most of the ticket surge was from Toronto fans before the opponent (Riders) was decided, the Riders (or it could have been Ottawa) took up a lot of tickets that Toronto fans might not have, conjecture on my part.

Unlike some of the TFC dreamers I'm not seeing any 50k stadiums in the future, so I am curious where and in what circumstances do you see the Argos?

Eventually, calrity will take hold and all of this nonsense of smoke and mirrors around the Argos will cease. The Argos will move up to Vaughn were they should have been a decade ago (If not Vaughn then York U). Vaughn has the Argos supporters base, the largest base of football fans in the region, lots of money, and ample land. Nobody in 416 Toronto will miss them, let the Argos go where they will be appreciated while still being in the Metro Region.

IMO the future for the CFL is to copy the Ottawa model where you have development and stadium intertwined. In the future it won't be lucrative enough to simply just sell tickets and suites to games, you will have to do more to coax big money Canadians to take a gamble and jump into the pro-sports ownership arena with the CFL.

I am crude though because IMO you need a full reboot of this team, Ottawa and Montreal treatment where it goes away for a few years and comes back. The market won't learn otherwise until the Argos come back as a 2.0 version of themselves (the market does not deserve it either, Agros have taken a beating for a long time now and should have it better). People take the Argos for granted as an afterthought and don't respect what they have. Let the Argos go away and settle those bad vibes in the marketplace and come back rejuvenated. Ottawa would have never survived if it lurched around running on fumes until its eventual rebrand as the RedBlacks.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

Eventually, calrity will take hold and all of this nonsense of smoke and mirrors around the Argos will cease. The Argos will move up to Vaughn were they should have been a decade ago (If not Vaughn then York U). Vaughn has the Argos supporters base, the largest base of football fans in the region, lots of money, and ample land. Nobody in 416 Toronto will miss them, let the Argos go where they will be appreciated while still being in the Metro Region.

IMO the future for the CFL is to copy the Ottawa model where you have development and stadium intertwined. In the future it won't be lucrative enough to simply just sell tickets and suites to games, you will have to do more to coax big money Canadians to take a gamble and jump into the pro-sports ownership arena with the CFL.

I am crude though because IMO you need a full reboot of this team, Ottawa and Montreal treatment where it goes away for a few years and comes back. The market won't learn otherwise until the Argos come back as a 2.0 version of themselves (the market does not deserve it either, Agros have taken a beating for a long time now and should have it better). People take the Argos for granted as an afterthought and don't respect what they have. Let the Argos go away and settle those bad vibes in the marketplace and come back rejuvenated. Ottawa would have never survived if it lurched around running on fumes until its eventual rebrand as the RedBlacks.

You may very well be right but the CFL won't never ever let that happen in Toronto. It's just too big a risk. The league would run the team itself if it had to.

[esquire]

^ The league could afford to lose a team in any city EXCEPT Toronto. It would be a calamity from a broadcast rights/national advertiser perspective.

In some ways that is a little unfortunate, because going without a team for 5-10 years could be the exact kind of restart that's needed. For example, the Als were in worse shape than the Argos ever were and even they became a thoroughly sustainable franchise ever since they came back in 1996.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Sounds to me like the fanbase emerged but the club somehow failed to capitalize on it.

The Argonauts were never going to gain relevance while playing at Skydome. The 100th Grey Cup was nice but once the game was over all the problems remained. Last year was a write off while 2017 marked year 1 of the rebuild. MLSE ownership, Trestman, Popp, and BMO Field form a solid foundation from which they can start the long road back. This will take 15-20 years minimum.

Thinking that 1 event can turnaround a franchise that's been in decline for 40 years is foolhardy. They're starting from scratch, winning over 1 new fan at a time. I had 1 such guy in my group. I didn't think he'd ever try the CFL again after attending an awful game in half empty Skydome 10 years ago. I could tell he was expecting another boring experience with no atmosphere. He showed up to yesterday's game in the 2nd quarter. By the 3rd he was cheering practically every play with everyone else. He was clearly 'feeling it' and asked about the West Final on our way out. This from a guy who hasn't watched CFL in a decade.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Last year was a write off while 2017 marked year 1 of the rebuild. MLSE ownership, Trestman, Popp, and BMO Field form a solid foundation from which they can start the long road back. This will take 15-20 years minimum.

Oh, I don't think it will take anywhere near that. I think management after this year and last has started to get a gauge on their new marketplace. You saw some interesting trends, families seem to respond to reasonable price points, exit polling has indicated people are happy with the experience. They might need another year of learning and then the fine tuning begins. The league is really tapping into social media and the kid's video game was a fantastic idea, just keep pulling in the same direction for a few years and their base will have been built.

The league should look into broadcasting in Mandarin and Punjabi. I thought it was kind of a lame thing until I saw a story on it on Hockey Night in Canada. Grandmothers were becoming Leaf fans giving them something to relate to their grandkids in the new world. Grandparents in many immigrant families have great influence on the very young children (a reverse kidfluence to coin a marketing term). If the league can brainwash 'em early it is very difficult to lose that early influence, when the NFL juggernaut comes along. They will still have positive feelings about the CFL.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by elly63

Oh, I don't think it will take anywhere near that. I think management after this year and last has started to get a gauge on their new marketplace. You saw some interesting trends, families seem to respond to reasonable price points, exit polling has indicated people are happy with the experience. They might need another year of learning and then the fine tuning begins. The league is really tapping into social media and the kid's video game was a fantastic idea, just keep pulling in the same direction for a few years and their base will have been built.

They're doing many things right but I feel you're underestimating how far they've sunk in this market. This is a metro of 6-7 million people. Even if they get BMO Field sold out all season it won't mean the fan base is back. They could reach that goal and still find themselves completely off the radar of most Torontonians.

There are 2 generations of Torontonians who have grown up where the Argonauts didn't matter and they didn't pay any attention to the CFL. Most of those people are lost generations to the CFL so they'll have to start with the kids growing up now. When those kids start having kids there will be 2 generations of Torontonians who've grown up with the Argonauts and CFL. That's 20 years.

Originally Posted by elly63

The league should look into broadcasting in Mandarin and Punjabi. I thought it was kind of a lame thing until I saw a story on it on Hockey Night in Canada. Grandmothers were becoming Leaf fans giving them something to relate to their grandkids in the new world. Grandparents in many immigrant families have great influence on the very young children (a reverse kidfluence to coin a marketing term). If the league can brainwash 'em early it is very difficult to lose that early influence, when the NFL juggernaut comes along. They will still have positive feelings about the CFL.

Pushing coverage of the Grey Cup on major networks globally should be a focus. It's attractive content and perhaps the first exposure most people around the world would have to the CFL. The big potential revenue generator for the CFL might be international television contracts for regular season games once they've had a taste of the Grey Cup. They could aggressively sell CFL games and networks would pick it up if it's priced right.

I realize they do have coverage on 3rd tier sports networks around the world but they don't seem to have a strong strategic plan about spreading CFL globally. They've had their hands full with other issues but now it's time for them to make an international push. It's entertaining football so it will find an international audience. Even if they only get 1% of sports fans to tune in, that would still dwarf the Canadian television audience.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

This line the TFC people always spout really makes me laugh. They are clueless to the history. In it own roundabout way this is what was supposed to happen. The Argos/CSA and UofT were to share a stadium and U of T pulled out last minute and screwed the deal. It could have been saved when York took the place of UofT but then Ted Rogers begged the Argos and C&S/Braley to stay and gave them a sweetheart deal at SkyDome. The Argos pulled out which hindsight being 20/20 was a grievous error and we took the long road to get to where we are now.

It's not that they are clueless. It's beside the point but, soccer fans weren't too keen on Varsity either. As you say, the Varsity deal fell through and everyone moved on. Book closed. Absolutely nothing to do with the build out of BMO Field which was federally funded as a National Soccer Stadium and host to the World Cup. It wouldn't have been built otherwise. It was the owner that saw the more tenants the merrier and that's their prerogative. It's unfair to call out soccer fans as silly especially when their sport was dismissed for decades to the likes of football, hockey, baseball, etc. Revisionist history? That's what you're doing.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

It's unfair to call out soccer fans as silly especially when their sport was dismissed for decades to the likes of football, hockey, baseball, etc. Revisionist history? That's what you're doing.

Who dismissed their sport? That's revisionist, the Blizzard had a high enough profile, the "fans" themselves dismissed the Lynx as not high brow enough for them. Otherwise no one cared.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by isaidso

They're doing many things right but I feel you're underestimating how far they've sunk in this market. This is a metro of 6-7 million people. Even if they get BMO Field sold out all season it won't mean the fan base is back. They could reach that goal and still find themselves completely off the radar of most Torontonians.

I know how far they have fallen in the market, a 14k season average shouts that out. But they don't need to be or can be on the radar for everybody, just their niche.

Originally Posted by isaidso

So they'll have to start with the kids growing up now. When those kids start having kids there will be 2 generations of Torontonians who've grown up with the Argonauts and CFL. That's 20 years.

If all businesses acted like that they'd never get off the ground, long term plan sure, but they already have basically half of their required market, they just need to grow it and fine tune it.

Originally Posted by isaidso

Pushing coverage of the Grey Cup on major networks globally should be a focus. It's attractive content and perhaps the first exposure most people around the world would have to the CFL. The big potential revenue generator for the CFL might be international television contracts for regular season games once they've had a taste of the Grey Cup. They could aggressively sell CFL games and networks would pick it up if it's priced right.

I realize they do have coverage on 3rd tier sports networks around the world but they don't seem to have a strong strategic plan about spreading CFL globally. They've had their hands full with other issues but now it's time for them to make an international push. It's entertaining football so it will find an international audience. Even if they only get 1% of sports fans to tune in, that would still dwarf the Canadian television audience.

I believe the commish is already on that because he was talking about spreading the brand globally and what I took from that would be the CFL without so much focus placed on what the C is in CFL (that was my interpretation) I was trying to think of how could I explain that without confusing everybody. I think I have it now. I don't think people think of the NHL as a Canadian league although half of the players are Canadian, an international CFL wouldn't emphasize where the players are from (again, my interpretation)

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

For example, the Als were in worse shape than the Argos ever were and even they became a thoroughly sustainable franchise ever since they came back in 1996.

Yeah, people complain about Toronto but they've been nowhere near the perils that Montreal had.

[craner]

Maas' decision to kick a FG was a head scratcher for sure but as others have said - I don't think going for it on 3rd down there guaranteed Edmonton would have tied it.
Anyway, it was a fun game to be at as a Stamps fan. I didn't hear the attendance announced but it looked to be about 30G.
Hoping the Stamps are focused enough on redemption for the 2016 GC after fighting and waiting for a year to get back in that position. Not going to be easy against the Argos though. Wish I was going to Ottawa for the game.
Go Stamps !

[elly63]

Originally Posted by craner

I didn't hear the attendance announced but it looked to be about 30G.

Attendance: 30,116

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by elly63

I know how far they have fallen in the market, a 14k season average shouts that out. But they don't need to be or can be on the radar for everybody, just their niche.

I haven't indicated that they need to be on everybody's radar but I also don't think finding their niche is good enough. It would allow the Argonauts to survive but not much else. One needs more than a small sliver of the market so that it gets broad/substantial coverage in the local news media, so it finds a sizable television audience in its market, and so that they can make money off merchandise sales.

Just filling BMO Field is an astonishingly low benchmark to strive for. That is certainly the immediate short term goal but that's no way near good enough over the long term.

Originally Posted by elly63

If all businesses acted like that they'd never get off the ground, long term plan sure, but they already have basically half of their required market, they just need to grow it and fine tune it.

The business is the CFL and the Argonauts a part of that business that the league deems essential. This isn't a new small business being launched. The Argonauts don't have a choice but to take a long term view. They're re-building an entire fan base. The fans they have now are fabulous and very loyal but the Argonauts and CFL are not going to become part of the conversation again if they don't move far beyond that group. Their fan base represent about 1 out of every 200 people in this city. That's abysmal.

When you walk into a Toronto sports bar during Grey Cup absolutely no one is watching it. That has to change. This is our national championship game.

Originally Posted by elly63

I believe the commish is already on that because he was talking about spreading the brand globally and what I took from that would be the CFL without so much focus placed on what the C is in CFL (that was my interpretation) I was trying to think of how could I explain that without confusing everybody. I think I have it now. I don't think people think of the NHL as a Canadian league although half of the players are Canadian, an international CFL wouldn't emphasize where the players are from (again, my interpretation)

Time will tell. I wish them all the success in the world. Hopefully one day the Grey Cup will get a television audience in Europe of over 5 million, another 5 million in Africa, 5 million in America (beyond Canada), and another 10 million in Asia.