DENVER | Transportation Thread

[PLANSIT]

Glad we covered all that...

How about a pretty picture of a slip-ramp for 15th St. Bikeway:

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Interzen

I have only spoken about anticipating the future. If you plan strictly for today's needs your efforts will likely fall short of tomorrows requirements. In the world of transportation where implementations can take many decades the future is always relevant.

What do you think is really going to change? Our land use patterns take generations to change. Do you really expect that we'll annihilate covenants, re-plat existing residential subdivisions, re-zone, and densify in any meaningful way? Denver is still generally developing off of plats from the mid-1800s, and we've made redevelopment significantly more difficult since then. You're assuming the future will look different. But when it comes to the built environment, odds are 200 years from now will look a lot like today in the VAST majority of the metro area. That's why it's so important. It's damn near impossible to undo those mistakes on any meaningful scale. The future is much more predictable than you think, at least when it comes to the stuff we're talking about.

And frankly, I don't care about developments that will affect 150 years from now. Not at all. My grandchildren will navigate substantially the same city that I do today. And in all likelihood, how they get around will be quite similar (although not the same) too. And the reason for that is simple - if the land use patterns don't change significantly, there's no need for that to change. That's why you always see me targeting land use first, transportation second.

Revolutionary change in Denver means the addition of slip ramps to accommodate a mode of transportation that humans have been using for 200 years. Give it a lane of its own, and that's good for three pages worth of posts.

[Interzen]

^^ didn't you see Plansit's pretty picture, I was ready to move on

[bunt_q]

Well we don't really have a choice but to move on now do we? It's a bike ramp! Cue the hoorahs for a sustainable car-free Denver. We're on the verge. Tulips by every sidewalk, and a bicycle rack in front of every door.

[Interzen]

^^Look at that, I just noticed you recently passed 10,000 posts.

[bunt_q]

Well crap. Now I'm old. When did the current iteration of the forum start counting, 2003ish?

[SnyderBock]

That guy claims to have the funding in place, for the $250 million PRT line between Boulder and Longmont. It just doesn't seem realistic, that he can build it for that cheap. It's all new technology, so he has to design, engineer and build everything from scratch, including the cars. The magnetic induction system, alone, will be an enormous cost, as it uses large amounts of rare earth magnets. And the idea of having solar panels along the entire line and using them to both power the line at day and also to split water into hydrogen to power hydrogen fuel cells to power it at night and produce excess hydrogen to sell to gas stations, makes it all sound like a vision, not a funded plan ready to start construction. But he says he has funding and only needs approval to use the ROW. Can we verify any of his claims?

[bunt_q]

Well, the PRT monorail proposal was the topic of the (single) editorial in the Denver Post today. http://m.denverpost.com/denverpost/d...tguid=hk3tyB3l

You wonder why this stuff annoys me? That's one more editorial than has been written about streetcars in Denver. Or other solutions that would be better and are more feasible for us. This isn't an innovation in transit, it is at best a distraction, at worst an attack.

I guarantee you there are people all over Denver this morning thinking to themselves, why do we need FasTracks, or why do we need a 19th-century streetcar on East Colfax, when we are on the verge of getting a monorail that can take us wherever we want whenever we want in little pods of our own. Transportation is about politics, and politics is about perception. This is not a harmless proposal. I know for certain somebody at work today brings this up to me and asks the question why we still need trains.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

That guy claims to have the funding in place, for the $250 million PRT line between Boulder and Longmont. It just doesn't seem realistic, that he can build it for that cheap. It's all new technology, so he has to design, engineer and build everything from scratch, including the cars. The magnetic induction system, alone, will be an enormous cost, as it uses large amounts of rare earth magnets. And the idea of having solar panels along the entire line and using them to both power the line at day and also to split water into hydrogen to power hydrogen fuel cells to power it at night and produce excess hydrogen to sell to gas stations, makes it all sound like a vision, not a funded plan ready to start construction. But he says he has funding and only needs approval to use the ROW. Can we verify any of his claims?

That's what is bugging me about this more than anything. I don't care about whether or not PRT systems are worth it, and whether or not they solve some issue; provided we aren't the ones paying for the experiment, and it's not blocking something needed soon (Diagonal is not a high priority IMO) the lack of a true transportation benefit doesn't bother me . However the cost estimates seem wildly optimistic to me considering they seem to have no idea what safety regulations this system needs, these stations have to be expensive (even if the guideway is as cheap as they claim), and just visually looking at it the cost to make it ADA compliant has to be high. Of course the biggest cost issue you brought up, implementing new technology is almost always more expensive than anticipated.

What happens when they get their $250 million, and run into a bunch of cost overruns on construction? Do they expect us to bail them out? Will they be financially able to revert Diagonal's ROW to it's previous state?

[bunt_q]

They will never get that far. The county, DRCOG, and other agencies up there won't let it start without some financial guarantees.

But they will create an expectation that this is just around the corner. And if you believe that, if you believe the technology like this is just around the corner and can be built for the prices they are touting, then why would we build other modes? It would be stupid to build light rail, streetcar, or commuter rail now if you believe everything about this system as it's being presented, and believe it will be available in the near future.

Sort of like the iPad I'm not buying yet because I'm waiting for the new one to come out. Except transit systems are a generational investment.

[EngiNerd]

$250 million, is that a joke? That won't even get them the land ROW rights.

[bobg]

^^ Bunt I just don't see Colfax Corridor Connections being put on the back-burner, or the central corridor re-study waiting see if this is feasible. What I can see happening is one or two people bringing it up in the public comments period, and then it being easily dismissed.

As far as future endeavors all we have to point to is our own history with PRT (or post youtube monorail simpsons clips in internet chat boards). Relying on unproven technology to solve a current transportation problem is idiotic. I think most people get that SkyTran is just trying to build a real world Proof of Concept in Longmont, and it isn't something that will fit all scenarios even if it is successful.

[Interzen]

^^ put your head back down to that grind stone, stop dreaming, and get to work. The Buntq nation will have no tolerance for distractions. The one true vision shall be made real. Muahhh

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

That guy claims to have the funding in place, for the $250 million PRT line between Boulder and Longmont. It just doesn't seem realistic, that he can build it for that cheap. It's all new technology, so he has to design, engineer and build everything from scratch, including the cars. The magnetic induction system, alone, will be an enormous cost, as it uses large amounts of rare earth magnets. And the idea of having solar panels along the entire line and using them to both power the line at day and also to split water into hydrogen to power hydrogen fuel cells to power it at night and produce excess hydrogen to sell to gas stations, makes it all sound like a vision, not a funded plan ready to start construction. But he says he has funding and only needs approval to use the ROW. Can we verify any of his claims?

Now that's the kind of debunking I can get behind. Nice use of technical details specific to the project at hand to make your point. Some of the design and prototyping work seems to already be done and I would imagine that they could skip the solar/hydrogen for early installations and run off the grid but there is no getting around all those magnets and certainly years of engineering and testing

Edit Napkin calculation:

If they can dedicate 1% of the 10mil/mile for magnets then that would be $100K or $18.93/ft. On ebay you can buy 100 fairly large neodymium magnets for that price that could possibly be enough to levitate a small car in motion as described, so I guess if they have a better source/solution than comon magnets off ebay that gets a 10fold reduction in cost then it could be as little as $10K/mile

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bobg

^^ Bunt I just don't see Colfax Corridor Connections being put on the back-burner, or the central corridor re-study waiting see if this is feasible. What I can see happening is one or two people bringing it up in the public comments period, and then it being easily dismissed.

It's an election I am worried about. If we have to pay for this stuff locally, eventually there's going to be a vote.

[DenverRider2]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...denverpost.com

At least 1,100 new parking spaces for Regional Transportation District commuters will be created at the home of the Denver Broncos after a nearly unanimous vote Tuesday by the RTD Board of Directors...RTD will rent the spaces for $677,417, at least for the first year of a 30-year sublease agreement with the Stadium Management Company, which operates Sports Authority Field. For now, rent works out to be about $600 per space per year, said RTD officials...RTD is required to find parking near the stadium — since it is near the east end of the newly minted West Rail Line — as part of a grant-funding agreement with the U.S. Department of Transportation.

This begs several questions-

Are 1000+ parking spaces really necessary so close to downtown? This station will not be a park and ride for suburban commuters.

Will RTD recoup this cost by charging for parking?

Why does the federal DOT determine local parking needs?

Could the 20 million being spent over the next thirty years by RTD be put to better use?

Discuss.

[bcp]

This wierd need for large parking lots within a mile of DT is completely mind-boggling....

[jimluk]

Originally Posted by bcp

This wierd need for large parking lots within a mile of DT is completely mind-boggling....

Kinda like the need to put a 2 ft high fence on top of a 6 ft concrete wall in the middle of a 6 lane freeway, its all just to make the trains less cost effective. That being said I know several people in the south burbs who will drive to the Broadway station and ride the train into downtown to avoid parking.

Edit:also big stick in the eye of the Decatur-Federal station plan, see you in 20 years progressive planing exercise

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by jimluk

Kinda like the need to put a 2 ft high fence on top of a 6 ft concrete wall in the middle of a 6 lane freeway, its all just to make the trains less cost effective. That being said I know several people in the south burbs who will drive to the Broadway station and ride the train into downtown to avoid parking.

Edit:also big stick in the eye of the Decatur-Federal station plan, see you in 20 years progressive planing exercise

The Decatur-Federal SAP takes into account RTD's need for parking. Scenarios within the plan deal with both Stadium and RTD parking through various shared structures, land swaps, and eventual overall reductions.

The funny part about this whole thing is that there are like 20 cars parked at the station on any given day. That's like $93 a day per car.

Originally Posted by buntq

It's an election I am worried about. If we have to pay for this stuff locally, eventually there's going to be a vote.

Given the current circumstances, this is the most likely outcome... in some form or another.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

It's an election I am worried about. If we have to pay for this stuff locally, eventually there's going to be a vote.

I do not see this impacting any future streetcar/transit vote. If we have a vote for Denver transit improvements it will likely only include Denver voters, and Denver voters have proven themselves to be willing to invest in more pragmatic measures (Better bonds, schools, etc) without much prodding.

Maybe if we end up attaching Denver transit improvements to that CDOT statewide sales tax being talked about by some suburban mayors SkyTran may come up (mainly because that corridor is administered by CDOT). But IMO that vote already seems doomed without the details even being finalized.

The only people I could see making an issue out of this are those from SkyTran, and I just do not see them taking the risk of pushing for a large system without seeing what it can do in the real world. Right now they are just trying to prove it's viability outside of test tracks.