Northern Ontario developments!

[Koolfire]

Doesn't matter if you run it through the city as between Intercity and Airport there is NOT viable to stop. At Westgate if you could get 1/3 for the students to ride it daily would be you would have about 12 train cars of passengers a weekday for 10 months of the year. Friendship gardens, not a daily destination.

The reasons that CN line would work the way you planned is:
It's really expensive to build underground, about double to triple the cost.
At Waterloo and Victoria, that turn North is too harsh and you can't cut the corner as there is a large apartment building at that corner.
Pretty sure they already reduced that right of way to one track, so you would have to rebuild.
I think the bridge by McIntyre Centre is only wide enough for one track.
Too many at grade crossings, the one by walmart is dangerous enough with only two trains a day. I can only imagine how bad it will be with a train every 15 minutes. The only crossing at grade for CP that are of significance I can think of is at the Marina.

Doesn't really matter the CP line is active, There is enough space in most places to build two more rail tracks. As in Calgary there is already 1 LRT line sharing right of way with CP with 2 more projects planned. One place that could be a problem, which is a problem today and in your plan is the PA waterfront. That section should be placed underground for safety and convenience.

As for being 500 metres from Intercity, I don't see it being a problem if you sync the arrival of a train with a shuttle that would take you to Intercity, McIntyre, and CLE grounds. 500 metres takes about 6 minutes to walk anyway and that's really not to bad (in the summer ). Also you could run the train up to Fort William Road by going up the bank of the river and then run it along side Fort William Road until Walmart and then back to CP Right of way.

As for it missing FW Downtown, well if Simpson and Victoria isn't at least on the limits of Downtown FW, then Downtown FW doesn't exist. The CP line is only about 150m from City Hall.

We could argue this till were blue in the face, but neither of us knows exactly what Thunder Bay will look like and that its transportation needs are if and when it reaches 500,000 population.

As for transportation in Thunder Bay now, I could drive from Westfort to Current River without taking the Expressway in about 20 minutes during rushhour. The major appeal of LRT and Subways is that it is faster then driving, which just isn't the case in Thunder Bay and won't be for a long long time.

[vid]

"won't be for a long long time."

Hence the word "vision" and the explanation that "this plan would not be feasible unless Thunder Bay was a much larger city, at which point the right of way probably won't exist". It was just a fantasy thing I made, nothing more. A time killer.

"As for transportation in Thunder Bay now, I could drive from Westfort to Current River without taking the Expressway in about 20 minutes during rushhour."

Really? It takes about 10 minutes to get from Simpson and Dease to the Superstore on Thursday at lunch time. Whens the last time you were in the city? Intercity has grown a lot, and that really snarls up traffic along Fort William and Memorial.

Now, I'm going to transcribe the CBC news report about the court house, which will take a couple minutes, because they don't put their news on their website. Please stand by..

===

There's a proposal to have a new court building in Thunder Bay, put up on the site of the city owned Brodie street parking lot and transit shelter. However the mayor is staying mum about what kind of offer the city is making to the province. All Lynn Peterson will say is, "a deal isn't done yet".

Councilors discussed a report on the idea at a meeting late last month. It was prepared by the head of planning for the city.

The city's parking authority has also discussed the implications of the project. Minutes from the meeting say the courthouse would mean the loss of 300 south core parking spaces.

A spokesperson for the Ontario Reality Corporation says no decision has been made on the site for a new courthouse. Bill Moore says in the normal course of events, the province first reviews it's own land holdings in the city for a suitable site, and if one isn't found, then the province looks at properties offered by the municipality.

© CBC News, Thunder Bay 2007

===

I don't understand where they're getting those 300 spaces from. Is the courthouse going to take up that entire area?? That's bigger than a Wal-Mart.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=UTF-8&...&t=k&z=18&om=0

[Koolfire]

About 5 years ago was the last time I drove this route but I drove in TBay this summer, not much has changed. Route was Ford/Kingsway, Walsh, Waterloo, Balmoral, Habour Expressway, Cameron (there wasn't a light there at the time as there is now), Central, FW Road, Water, Cumberland. 20 minutes.

Superstore is about the half way mark from Frederica and Ford which takes about 10 minutes. As for being Rush hour like that matters in Thunder Bay, traffic moves pretty good unless there is an accident.

[Koolfire]

Hmmm, Maybe there giving them VictoriaVille? Only place I can think of that has 300 Parking spots is the parkade there.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by vid

... CN line was that it's now underused and on the verge of being abandoned anyway.

Wow - I knew traffic was light, but didn't realise that they're talking about abandoning it. Any links??

Also, even if the court house results in the loss of 300 parking spaces - so what? It's DT FW - there will still be tons of parking.

Finally, any more news on what Habib is planning for the CIBC bldg?

Cheers.

[vid]

You haven't been stuck in Jumbo Gardens at Rush Hour have you? There are times when the County Park and Jumbo Gardens and only a few blocks away and going in the same direction because of traffic along there. It's better now that Red River is clear though, I think the construction really helped people realize that John Street goes downtown, too. I don't know how you got on Cameron between the Harbour and Central, Cameron is a few kilometers away from there. And in five years, a lot has changed. The amount of business in Intercity has doubled. Five years ago, the Thunder Centre did exist. Now it does. It has created a lot of traffic, especially during afternoon rush hour. Current River to Fort William, going down 'Bayview Route' during rush hour takes about 30 minutes now, especially with all the lights now along Water Street. When the waterfront plan goes into full swing, it will probably become two lanes, one way, northbound. Cumberland will go in the opposite direction.

The three parking lots around Brodie, the one by Paterson Park, the one between the terminal and the mall, and the one between the Chapples and Twin City Gas Buildings, have about 300 spaces. The city has Victoriaville, and has put a lot of money in fixing it up in the past few months, they just put up a giant canopy near the Centennial Square lot as part of the renovations of the new hallway (It's quite nice, for Victoriaville, but still very quiet as it's just city departments, and the departments are closed to the public!) and they're still (always? Perpetually?) doing roof work on the thing.

Besides, the layout isn't good for a court house, and they said it would be going where the bus terminal is. Maybe the city was taking into account the demand for parking if the building is built? If you consider that this is putting together the family court in Victoriaville, the Superior court on Camelot, and the provincial court on Arthur, and the fact that they need more space for high demand, the building will be fairly large.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?oe=UTF...7277425df2686e

^^ That's a map, not sure if it will work, but it explains what they have and what they'll need. I'm probably off on the numbers, though. I usually am. We're in for a pretty big building, either way. Probably the biggest downtown building since Peterson's Monument.

[vid]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Wow - I knew traffic was light, but didn't realise that they're talking about abandoning it. Any links??

Nothing official, but they've all but emptied their rail yards (Check them out on www.flashearth.com. Yahoo maps is from June 2001, and Google's is from May 2007. The difference in volume at their rail yards is astounding.) Neebing Yard wasn't very full in 2001 to begin with, and by 2007 it's about half of whats left. The one near the Reserve was almost full in 2001, it's now empty save for a few trains that Google captured. They dont use their swing bridge much anymore. CP still uses the Jackknife, and that's been practically dismantled. (Though still maintained, they added a new bascule over the summer); Yahoo caught a train blocking traffic on Memorial. I've only seen trains go through there a dozen times or so since May, and remember it happening all the time when I was younger. The waterfront yard has seen traffic decline as well. The only CN yard that seems to be doing well is the one northeast of Marina Park, and I don't even know if that's CNs yard or not.

Also, having spent a lot of time at the waterfront, and being interested in trains, I can tell you that about 97% of the trains that went by DTPA, while I was there to see them, were CP. The only times I ever saw CN trains, they were shunting a few cars between yards. Never anything large, so obviously nothing national like CP. CN is small time here.

Business is increasing in Intercity, and a lot of people are getting frustrated with the tracks being there. Nothing is official yet, but it's only a matter of time between something happens that forces CN to reroute is line through the city, or pack up and leave altogether. CP on the other hand is doing pretty good, they're putting money into the community, and even renovated their train station, restoring many historical aspects of it in the process. CN has just seen job losses and traffic decreases. The future doesn't look bright for CN in the lakehead.

Originally Posted by shreddog

Also, even if the court house results in the loss of 300 parking spaces - so what? It's DT FW - there will still be tons of parking.

Yes, but this is Thunder Bay. Our downtown doesn't have free parking. Anywhere. Where there is free parking, it's conditional. You can't park in Centennial's parking lot and then go to Victoriaville, even if you park in a parking spot which touches Victoriaville! The city is probably worried about loss of revenue from the parking. We're running a surplus, but just barely. We appointed a councillor to a 1,100 day term because we can't afford a 30,000$ by-election. Administration won't even allow 10,000 grants, let along the 85,000$ one the practically forced city hall to turn down last night. They won't let BIAs offer free parking on weekends. They're doing some "two hours free on Saturday" thing, which apparently involved A LOT of tape and paper, but it doesnt seem to be doing well since nothing is open on Saturday. I all comes down to revenue. The Parking Authority and Administration hate developments on parking lots because they lose money. They'd rather it be on vacant land, but as soon as land becomes vacant, they turn it into a parking lot! If they lowered the fee on the Vicville parkade, by about 10% or so, more people would use it, and it would probably make more profits as a result.

Originally Posted by shreddog

Finally, any more news on what Habib is planning for the CIBC bldg?

Cheers.

Nothing yet.

[Koolfire]

Oops, your right, not Cameron but Carrick, the road beside Superstore.

[vid]

Well then, you by-passed the stretches of Memorial and Fort William between Isabel and Central, which has the worst traffic in Intercity, especially now. Balmoral is the expressway compared to Memorial. Take Algoma-Memorial-May across town at 3 in the afternoon and see if you make it to the other end in 20 minutes. From Hodder at Arundel to Simpson/Arthur, if you make that in 25 minutes at 3pm, I'll be impressed. (Especially if you stay on Cumberland instead of turning on to Water)

[ikerrin]

I saw this little gem on the Ontario Ministry of Northern Development. Apparently, the Ontario Govt is spending $1.8 billion over five years to invest in Northern Highways. Fair enough, Northerners pay gas taxes, they deserve good roads.

Then I read the document available here http://www.mndm.gov.on.ca/mndm/nordev/nortra_e.asp

Then I started calculating. $1.8 billion divided by 11,000 km of roads is over $160,000/km and I doubt that they are going to spend the money fixing ever km of the roads.

There are about 780,000 Northern Ontarians in the effected region so $1.8 billion spent works out to about $2300 per person. This is usually where the arguements about how we pay for roads from our taxes kick in, but in fact, many Northern Ontarians don't actually drive (i.e. kids younger than 16 some older folks).

So, say that there are 600,000 Northern Ontarians driving 12,000 km a year in cars that use around 8 litres to the 100km (say all Northerners drive Impalas). That means that the average Northerner is using 960 litres of gas a year and all 600000 of them are using 576 million litres. Since Ontario excise taxes on gas are about $.1 a litre Northerners are contributing $57.6 million a year in gas taxes or about a $100 bucks a person a years toward construction of the Northern highway. So for a $2300 highway program over 5 years, they contribute $500.

This isn't to dump on Northerners, but its just that I have never seen the numbers in such a black and white fashion before. I always felt that roads were not really paying their way, but now its particularly clear. This is just to say that I really think two or three trains a day to Thunder Bay from Toronto, a rail connection between Montreal and the Sault connecting Sudbury and North Bay and expansion of the Ontario Northland Service is really justified.

Will it pay for itself? No. But neither will Northern highways. If the Ontario Government is going to provide such massive, massive subsidies for private drivers and the bus industry, plus build airports from taxes, then its ridiculous not to also fund passenger rail along corridors with loads of dying towns and cities.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by vid

This is the updated version of the image I made the other day. I added a couple more lines and changed some names. The overground LRT line would be located where the CN right of way is now. They only use it once or twice a day now since they've scaled back their service, and there is talk of the city forcing them to re-reroute as it occasionally inconveniences and endangers drivers in intercity. Many of their crossings don't have crossing arms and malfunction frequently. In fact, a train almost hit a bus I was on a few weeks ago, and had it been going faster than 20km/h, it probably would have hit cars, too. It had to use it's horn to warn them. The black and orange line is a subway under Victoria. The street is too built up for LRT to go through though it might be possible down a centre median, but that would require widening the street and in a few places that would be impossible without demolishing buildings. The line would terminate below the east side of Victoriaville Mall, where the Capitol Theatre used to be.

Obviously, this plan would be for the future, when the population is high enough to sustain something like this. So far, the traffic capacity would probably be able to fill an LRT train during peak times, especially between the cores and through intercity, but economically it wouldn't be feasible. The only BRT and Express lines which would be viable would be the Port Arthur--Intercity and McIntyre. Both trams would be viable, but the Port Arthur one would be more successful, until the Simpson Street area improved.

The difference between BRT and Express Bus is that BRT would be able to have a right of way (Though the McIntyre line running down Algonquin might damage the trees on that street, in which case it would have to go down Junot, but would then be unable to serve College Heights)



I started some bus routes but didn't think the system I had worked (15 and 30 minute frequency routes feeding to the RT lines) so I'm going to try and re-work it.

Wow, that is sweet! Are they any proposals for BRT or LRT on the table?

[vid]

^LOL! No. Of course not! They're cut the system down as much as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if they cut the Neebing, Mission and East End routes. (Though by routing East End through Intercity, they saved that one). We need some sort of higher capacity transit between the two cores and by schools, as buses are standing room only most of the day now, but the capacity for BRT isn't really there, and the capacity for LRT definitely isn't there. People in this city would probably be afraid of LRT anyway. Judging by their reactions to things, if they knew how dangerous cars were, they'd all be agoraphobic.

What you have forgotten to factor in, though, is Trans-Canada traffic. Southern Ontario is a nub, cut off from Canada. Northern Ontario, however, is running along the spine of the TCH. Millions of transport trucks go through the region every year, and that takes a serious toll on highways. They should be using trains too, but they aren't. On Dawson Road (Highway 102), you can actually see the grooves left in the pavement due to trucks, and they completely resurface it every five years. And a train to Toronto from Thunder Bay won't help matters. Most people that commute on highways here come from rural areas, and are going to Thunder Bay. No one actually drives from Thunder Bay to Toronto anyway. We fly. It's much faster, and in many cases, cheaper too.

Another thing you have to consider is population. Yes, Northern Ontario has three quarters of a million people... but, that three quarters of a million people is stretched across a geographic area the size of Mozambique (Sweden, Finland and Slovenia combined) and they aren't all going to Toronto, Montreal or Winnipeg. Many of them are driving right though.

It would take about a day for a train to get from Thunder Bay to Toronto anyway, when you factor in all the stops. And if you exclude too many places, no one will use it. All the towns here may be barely 1,000 people, but when you leave out twenty of them, thats quite a big market.

And, of that 1.8 billion, most of it will probably go to Muskoka and Parry Sound. Don't forget, FEDNOR now includes farms in Essex! It's biggest grants this year have been to Waterloo and Chatham!

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I saw this little gem on the Ontario Ministry of Northern Development. Apparently, the Ontario Govt is spending $1.8 billion over five years to invest in Northern Highways. Fair enough, Northerners pay gas taxes, they deserve good roads.

Then I read the document available here http://www.mndm.gov.on.ca/mndm/nordev/nortra_e.asp

Then I started calculating. $1.8 billion divided by 11,000 km of roads is over $160,000/km and I doubt that they are going to spend the money fixing ever km of the roads.

There are about 780,000 Northern Ontarians in the effected region so $1.8 billion spent works out to about $2300 per person. This is usually where the arguements about how we pay for roads from our taxes kick in, but in fact, many Northern Ontarians don't actually drive (i.e. kids younger than 16 some older folks).

So, say that there are 600,000 Northern Ontarians driving 12,000 km a year in cars that use around 8 litres to the 100km (say all Northerners drive Impalas). That means that the average Northerner is using 960 litres of gas a year and all 600000 of them are using 576 million litres. Since Ontario excise taxes on gas are about $.1 a litre Northerners are contributing $57.6 million a year in gas taxes or about a $100 bucks a person a years toward construction of the Northern highway. So for a $2300 highway program over 5 years, they contribute $500.

Few problems with that is:
The majority of most peoples 12000 is city driving so Fuel Economy is closer to 12L/km
Most people that do most of there driving on HWY will have much higher km per year as there commute is going to be much longer. (Think 4 day work week and one way commute of 30KM = 200 x 2 x 30= 12000km of pure commuting and very conservative esimate)
There is no calculation of how much transports driving through Ontario use. For MB border to sudbury is like 1600 KM, and I can only imagine what a transports mileage is.
There is no consideration for people driving across country, you know those insane people have too much time on they're hands
There is no consideration of how much gasoline Southern Ontario residents use to get to there Northern Ontario Cottage.

[vid]

to add to the commutes - my grade seven teacher lived 150km away from town, and drove into town every day and drove out every night. That is 300km a day, 1,500km a week, and 60,000 a year. (She was a teacher, she got most of the summer off Otherwise it would have been 78,000)

She drives as much as city buses!

Originally Posted by vid

to add to the commutes - my grade seven teacher lived 150km away from town, and drove into town every day and drove out every night. That is 300km a day, 1,500km a week, and 60,000 a year. (She was a teacher, she got most of the summer off Otherwise it would have been 78,000)

She drives as much as city buses!

That's stupid. Why would you commute 150km to Thunder Bay? It's not even like the cost of living is that expensive. I don't even think I've heard of anyone commuting 150km to Toronto. I'm sure there are people who do, but it's very rare. So why anyone would commute that far to TBay is beyond me...

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

Few problems with that is:
The majority of most peoples 12000 is city driving so Fuel Economy is closer to 12L/km
Most people that do most of there driving on HWY will have much higher km per year as there commute is going to be much longer. (Think 4 day work week and one way commute of 30KM = 200 x 2 x 30= 12000km of pure commuting and very conservative esimate)
There is no calculation of how much transports driving through Ontario use. For MB border to sudbury is like 1600 KM, and I can only imagine what a transports mileage is.
There is no consideration for people driving across country, you know those insane people have too much time on they're hands
There is no consideration of how much gasoline Southern Ontario residents use to get to there Northern Ontario Cottage.

Yeah, the transports. I thought about them after I clicked submit. The reason that I didn't correct for it though was because even though their fuel taxes pay for a chunk of the roads, can it really make up the $1.3 billion deficit? If so, then that basically means that road are for trucks and car drivers are freeloading. Is that really what we are saying? Should auto drivers just be grateful to trucks for making the highways possible?

As for my estimates of 12,000 kms. I admit that I might be off a bit, but I think in other ways I was conservative. 600,000 out of 780,000 is a high ratio of drivers when you consider the fact that a big chunk of the population are not drivers or drive little - kids, spouses who don't work or who are passengers, older seniors, aboriginals on reservations without road access. Plus, among drivers, how many are real road warriors. With the exception of Vids teacher example, most are commuting 5 or 10 km to work most days and not going out of town all that much. I think that 12,000 km annual on a car is more of a suburban big city commuter thing.

In the final analysis though, I am not disputing that we spend money on roads. I just hate this smug notion many anti-rail people adapt toward rail in Canada, that it somehow doesn't pay here but that it does in Europe. By my estimate, passenger road doesn't pay anymore than passenger rail. If roads are used by 75% of the population and that leads to $1.8 billion for Northern ontario roads, than I would like to see the other $600 million that the other 25% of the population deserves. I mean, VIA rail gets $690 in capital funding for the whole country, but Northern Ontario gets $1.8 billion for less than a million people.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by vid

No one actually drives from Thunder Bay to Toronto anyway. We fly. It's much faster, and in many cases, cheaper too.

Another thing you have to consider is population. Yes, Northern Ontario has three quarters of a million people... but, that three quarters of a million people is stretched across a geographic area the size of Mozambique (Sweden, Finland and Slovenia combined) and they aren't all going to Toronto, Montreal or Winnipeg. Many of them are driving right though.

It would take about a day for a train to get from Thunder Bay to Toronto anyway, when you factor in all the stops. And if you exclude too many places, no one will use it. All the towns here may be barely 1,000 people, but when you leave out twenty of them, thats quite a big market.

And, of that 1.8 billion, most of it will probably go to Muskoka and Parry Sound. Don't forget, FEDNOR now includes farms in Essex! It's biggest grants this year have been to Waterloo and Chatham!

Sorry Vid, didn't see your comments.

I agree that Northern Ontario is huge, but we pave it between towns and cities and I think we should rail it too. I'm not talking TGV here, but rather three lines Montreal - Sault TO-Sudbury-TBay and TO-NBay-James Bay, with stops in between.

With modern technology, you don't need to stop at every small town, but only where there are passengers, or you could run collector inter-city buses collecting people in villages and bringing them to bigger towns.

As for flying TO to TBay - sure that will always be the way to go for business travellers, but many of the travellers along the route will only be making partial trips like Marathon to the Sault or to TBay. On the on the other hand, by having the train you will catch many more tourists who would do the whole trip - especially if its a nice train. Think European youth hostel types, train enthusiasts and all those tourists who don't or won't rent a car.

You know, I don't see how the North will ever thrive without passenger rail connections - unless there is a Bill Gates type waiting to start a web 2.0 company and who has relocation issues. Tourists just can't get up there conveniently. After popping thousands to fly to Toronto or Montreal will a tourist really pay $500 more for a plane and a hotel night of two in Thunder Bay?

On the other hand, with rail you can attract the excursian model. Come to Canada for 3 weeks and ride the rails. You pay one price and you ride as far as you can get.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

That's stupid. Why would you commute 150km to Thunder Bay? It's not even like the cost of living is that expensive. I don't even think I've heard of anyone commuting 150km to Toronto. I'm sure there are people who do, but it's very rare. So why anyone would commute that far to TBay is beyond me...

She owns a fifth of a lake, and doesn't pay municipal taxes. She basically lives in a "cottage" all year long. And for the record, about a dozen people commute between Thunder Bay and Toronto, 1600kms. There is some site on StatsCan with commute figures to back that up, too.

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I agree that Northern Ontario is huge, but we pave it between towns and cities and I think we should rail it too.

So do I. I would love to have VIA rail service. I'd actually be able to go places. I'd love to take a train down to Toronto or Montreal or Winnipeg for the weekend. I don't have a license (probably never will, as I get distracted way to easily to drive highways up here, I'd kill something) and as much as I enjoy buses, 1,600km on a greyhound is too much. (400km on a greyhound is too much... fuck, I think I'd rather ride a TBTransit bus to Toronto. At least it smells nice! ) The main problem is, who will use it? The line was originally cut because it wasn't getting many riders, and that was when the city had 5000 more people than it does now.

Originally Posted by ikerrin

With modern technology, you don't need to stop at every small town, but only where there are passengers, or you could run collector inter-city buses collecting people in villages and bringing them to bigger towns.

Cities (more correctly, villages) aren't big enough. A town of 1,000 might have one or two people going to Toronto. The next ten or fifteen towns along the highway will probably have no one going anywhere, and then you'll get to a town of 1,500 and they'll have one person, but by the time you've gotten there you've driven 500km and picked up three people. It's about as efficient as a car that way. There is a train line from Sudbury to Algoma, Unincorporated which allows people to flag the train to stop where ever they're getting off if they need it, but that obviously only works in towns along the railway. We could have a taxi service, but again, that's using cars. A train running between the big cities would be better, but only 55% of Northern Ontario lives in those cities. About 65% lives in any community with more than a thousand people, the other 35% live in rural areas. You can't service an area that large with just buses.

If the north gets a train, it's going to be a novelty thing. Airports are quicker and cars offer more freedom, it'll be a hard sell.

Originally Posted by ikerrin

You know, I don't see how the North will ever thrive without passenger rail connections - unless there is a Bill Gates type waiting to start a web 2.0 company and who has relocation issues. Tourists just can't get up there conveniently. After popping thousands to fly to Toronto or Montreal will a tourist really pay $500 more for a plane and a hotel night of two in Thunder Bay?

On the other hand, with rail you can attract the excursian model. Come to Canada for 3 weeks and ride the rails. You pay one price and you ride as far as you can get.

Well there is another problem. Pay one price? I don't think VIA would do that. In Europe, you can ride the train for ten minutes and you're in another town. In Northern Ontario, we have towns that are 100 km apart and are in the same municipality. That had better be a nice train, because you'll be sleeping in it for sure. (Does VIA still have sleepers?)

VIA would have to undergo huge changes to accommodate the north. As much as I want it to, I don't see it happening. And whether or not we have trains, we're still going to need roads.

For a point of reference, this is what we lost in 1990.

And speaking of excursions - this sounds pretty fun.

======

News:

Kinloch Manor (Hospice) (Reaume Street, approved) has run low on funds, and is appealing for more. They need money to handle operating costs for about two years to be eligible for government grants.

Chartwell Select "likes what they see in Thunder Bay" and are working on a sixteen unit townhouse development for seniors. It will be located across from their most recent project on Arundel. http://www.thunderbaybusiness.ca/art...ent-in-158.asp

Northern Ontario Business has made a list of the best places to work in the North. Wellington West, a Winnipeg based company with operations in Thunder Bay, was placed at the top of that list. (I don't know if that means it's number one though, it's just there. ) They say expansion across the north is likely, which is great news for the rest of the region's cities looking to diversify.

Thunder Bay Economic Developments has FINALLY updated their page! (First time in, like, a year!) The closing date for expressions of interest for a private partner in the water front development has been extended to 29 November, 4 PM ET. They have not found a private partner for the waterfront yet. (Or, they have found one or more, and are looking for a more diverse field? But that is unlikely, especially with an entire month of extra time.)

You can tell by the three exclamation points that they're really enthusiastic about the project!!!

A tripped fire alarm at the Ontario Provincial Court on Arthur Street resulted in the evacuation of the building yesterday. No media other than CBC NWO has reported on the recent development regarding the consolidated court house, so I can't give any more details on that.

[Danny D]

Oh my our cities website is horrible i almost feel like giving them some new photos and better pictures to get ride of the bad ones such as this http://www.thunderbay.ca/images/busi...rder%20Top.JPG

[vid]

LOL I know! It's SO 1998!

(That's when it was designed. )

We just can't afford it. We can't even afford democracy!!