PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Kidphilly]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-...b_7632248.html

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

It is so enervating that this attracts the commission and NIMBYs' concerns while the completely anti-urban blight of luxury townhouses directly across the street from the Betsy Ross House went through without anyone blinking an eye.

Isn't that the point here? They want this particular area to maintain its historic scale and ambience, and NOT to take on a more modern urban scale and feel. I'm not necessarily defending that position, not having looked at the area in detail, but I think the concern is more about the scale of those respective developments (townhouses versus larger apartment building), and not their design aesthetics. I think it's a relevant concern in neighborhoods such as this, in which the historic scale and ambience are among Philly's greatest assets as a tourist destination. Of course, the design aesthetics of smaller-scale construction--including those townhouses--should also be relevant in that regard, although not as impactful on the scale and general ambience of the streetscape.

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Isn't that the point here? They want this particular area to maintain its historic scale and ambience, and NOT to take on a more modern urban scale and feel. I'm not necessarily defending that position, not having looked at the area in detail, but I think the concern is more about the scale of those respective developments (townhouses versus larger apartment building), and not their design aesthetics. I think it's a relevant concern in neighborhoods such as this, in which the historic scale and ambience are among Philly's greatest assets as a tourist destination. Of course, the design aesthetics of smaller-scale construction--including those townhouses--should also be relevant in that regard, although not as impactful on the scale and general ambience of the streetscape.

Old city is filled with 5-10 story warehouses that have been converted to condos and apartments. Yes... historic, sure...historic in the sense of townhomes? absolutely not. The only townhome in old city is the betsy ross house. That's it. That and the new million dollar homes for the rich. I mean... what is the overall goal here?

Trying to turn old city into society hill is probably more against its historic nature than trying to add another high density warehouse with a historic looking vibe to the street.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

Old city is filled with 5-10 story warehouses that have been converted to condos and apartments. Yes... historic, sure...historic in the sense of townhomes? absolutely not. The only townhome in old city is the betsy ross house. That's it. That and the new million dollar homes for the rich. I mean... what is the overall goal here?

Trying to turn old city into society hill is probably more against its historic nature than trying to add another high density warehouse with a historic looking vibe to the street.

Ya, exactly. The townhomes are totally contrary to the character and ambiance of the neighborhood. There are a few other streets like Elfreth's alley that have single-family homes, but they are graceful and open to the street whereas those ones across from Betsy Ross are cold and have GARAGES on the street, it's basically a crime. Whereas, this density and mixed use is not unprecedented at all in Olde City. It has plenty of buildings of this height, and after all, it's historically been a bustling part of the city with warehouses, industry, retail, restaurants etc. Frustrating.

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Isn't that the point here? They want this particular area to maintain its historic scale and ambience, and NOT to take on a more modern urban scale and feel. I'm not necessarily defending that position, not having looked at the area in detail, but I think the concern is more about the scale of those respective developments (townhouses versus larger apartment building), and not their design aesthetics. I think it's a relevant concern in neighborhoods such as this, in which the historic scale and ambience are among Philly's greatest assets as a tourist destination. Of course, the design aesthetics of smaller-scale construction--including those townhouses--should also be relevant in that regard, although not as impactful on the scale and general ambience of the streetscape.

Others have already said it, but yeah, there's nothing anachronistic about 10+ stories in Old City. Just look at the customs house for an example of something way taller. Garage fronted mcmansions on the other hand...

[Philly Fan]

But leaving aside the merits of the townhouses, I can see why some might feel that a 10-story building is out of scale with, and would change the character of, this particular block or group of blocks:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Be...6423b7!6m1!1e1

Again, I'm not saying that I agree with that, but I don't think it's just a crazy NIMBY complaint, given the context of a uniquely historic and tourist-centric neighborhood such as this.

[wondertwinalpha]

Committee staff had said that the 10-story building was incompatible with its Old City surroundings
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...PJjYug6MYIE.99

The Site is surrounded by similar buildings.

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by wondertwinalpha

The Site is surrounded by similar buildings.

BOOM. mic dropped. EXACTLY. Plus... the design is to try to match the other warehouses in the area and the 10 stories are set back so far, you'd have to be on the BF bridge to see how tall the building goes!

[Philly Fan]

But sometimes you have to look at these things on a micro level, block by block, and not just at the general neighborhood within a few blocks. And especially when you're dealing with a uniquely historic area visited by tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of tourists every year. And that's what's happening here:

Jonathan Farnham, executive director of the Historical Commission, says the project’s size poses concern:

“The (staff) recommendation is that the proposed building would be incompatible with the historic district in height, massing and scale. Its a ten-story in an area of Old City that is primarily comprised of three-, four-, five- or six-story buildings. So it would loom over several historic buildings and would be within a half-block of Christ Church, one of the most important buildings in Old City and in the city.”

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...t-of-old-city/

[MikeNigh]

Imo the whole historic thing is another way to artificially keep philly down like the gentlemen's agreement. If those who first built the homes etc could know that many years later it would mean modern towers couldn't be built I can't imagine what combination of pissed / ashamed / disappointed they would be.

I agree that some portion should be preserved and new construction in that portion etc should be to keep the look / feel. However philly is not a museum of the past and only the past, it is a major american city that needs to keep up with itself.

[McBane]

And yet no one said a word about the American Revolution Museum's ultra cheesy design that is almost an insult to the real historic buildings in the area.

[wondertwinalpha]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

But sometimes you have to look at these things on a micro level, block by block, and not just at the general neighborhood within a few blocks. And especially when you're dealing with a uniquely historic area visited by tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of tourists every year. And that's what's happening here:



http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...t-of-old-city/

So at the Micro level they are fine with these garage fronted modern town homes across from the Betsy Ross house (at tourist attraction) but not a 10 story set back building that looks like a dozen other buildings on the surrounding blocks? I don't buy it. How many other modern town homes with street facing garage doors are there on that block? Or any of the surrounding blocks for that matter? PMC has some buildings around the city I don't like much but this was a pretty good fit for the neighborhood IMHO.



http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...treet-mansions

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by wondertwinalpha

So at the Micro level they are fine with these garage fronted modern town homes across from the Betsy Ross house (at tourist attraction) but not a 10 story set back building that looks like a dozen other buildings on the surrounding blocks? I don't buy it. How many other modern town homes with street facing garage doors are there on that block? Or any of the surrounding blocks for that matter? PMC has some buildings around the city I don't like much but this was a pretty good fit for the neighborhood IMHO.

You definitely have a point. But did the Historical Commission have any input into or authority over the design of those town homes? If it did, and it didn't have any objections, then it's obviously more concerned about height and scale than design. Not that that's a good thing.

[alasi]

It's interesting when I see people concerned about the character of the area, but forgot what the place actually looked like fifty years ago. My family used to go to St. George's over on 3rd. The place was full of trade shops and was pretty rundown. In fact, I think that was the only reason the Black Banana was able to operate without any problems for so many years.

Now With the exception of Elfreth's alley and the old churches in the area, I think of this area as more of a Loft/ Soho area, which this bldg reflects, definitely more so than the 7 figure town homes.

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

Imo the whole historic thing is another way to artificially keep philly down like the gentlemen's agreement. If those who first built the homes etc could know that many years later it would mean modern towers couldn't be built I can't imagine what combination of pissed / ashamed / disappointed they would be.

I agree that some portion should be preserved and new construction in that portion etc should be to keep the look / feel. However philly is not a museum of the past and only the past, it is a major american city that needs to keep up with itself.

Exactly. And Old City is Philadelphia's original Center City. If any Center City neighborhood should be home to architectural diversity, it's Old City.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by wondertwinalpha

The Site is surrounded by similar buildings.

Great insight with the map wondertwinphila. Also, some really great discussion with everyone. I agree that the massing should fit in with the neighborhood just fine. I'd like to see more attention spent on the design rather than what's in the original rendering. A change there could allow it to fit into the neighborhood much better.

Great discussion and very good points on all sides here folks.

[Philly Fan]

Developer to pull, pending revision, plan for Old City apartment building

Just the messenger here, folks.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by alasi

Now With the exception of Elfreth's alley and the old churches in the area, I think of this area as more of a Loft/ Soho area, which this bldg reflects, definitely more so than the 7 figure town homes.

Great point. Let's see what the developer comes back with.

[Williard Mouse]

Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The American flag is increasingly coming under attack as a symbol of capitalist greed and an inherently racist system. Within a few short years, the Betsy Ross House will have been shuttered and razed to make way for more of these soulless McTownhouses.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Williard Mouse

Frankly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The American flag is increasingly coming under attack as a symbol of capitalist greed and an inherently racist system. Within a few short years, the Betsy Ross House will have been shuttered and razed to make way for more of these soulless McTownhouses.

Whoa. That's a curve I didn't see coming.