Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by zurich

Without Ryan Smith, there will be NO entertainment district and that area will sit dead for the next decade or longer. You certainly don't have to like him.. maybe because he's a Billionaire..whatever it is.... but sometimes, it takes a business or person with deep pockets to partner with the city and its citizens to bring something special. Utah has a very low tax burden compared with most states and one of the lowest property taxes. Will $150 per year really bother you that much? What if this development brings a Fortune 500 company downtown and you have a son, daughter who ends up working there. I just get frustrated with people who obviously have some gripe with a "Billionaire" and cannot really articulate why they are against something that will benefit the city in so many ways. Again... its progress and in this case it opens up so many more possibilities.

Salt Lake City does not NEED a new entertainment district, and downtown is not dead, with or without an NHL team.

Smith just found a clever way to get the public to give him essentially the same amount of money he paid for his NHL team, as well as 2 city blocks for him to develop for his own gain.

I hope this whole scheme falls apart. Nobody needs any of this except maybe Smith himself.

[mstar]

I agree with Comrade's view on this subject. The city cannot afford to lose out on the NBA and NHL moving else where in the valley. I think the city is doing the right thing by investing in this sports and entertainment district. Let's face it - there are not a lot of investors lined up to do major overhauls of downtown. IMO - Ryan Smith and the city are just partnering up to do something that could be a game changer for our city. The fact is that it would be cheaper and less complicated to build a sports and entertainment district in Sandy or Draper.
There are some public buildings involved in this project, so the partnership is justified. The other point I think should be considered as well is that if this overall project is done correctly and it becomes something Salt Lake can be proud of - it will only be a catalyst to more development downtown. I think Mayor Mendenhall and Jenny Wilson doing the right thing.

[arkhitektor]

Salt Lake is not perfect, but it has done just fine for 100+ years without an NHL team. I don't understand why losing the team that we've never had is going to be so ruinous.

As for the Jazz, Smith already invested hundreds of millions into downtown when he bought the Delta Center. He's not an idiot and is not going to walk away from all that investment and pay for a new arena somewhere else out of his own pocket.

I'm not naive, I recognize that professional sports ownership in 2024 is mostly just a real estate investment scheme, but there's no reason the public has to dump $900 million into this particular scheme.

[RC14]

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If the NHL goes to the suburbs, the Jazz go to. He has stated as much and that makes sense. He doesn't want to maintain two arenas.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by RC14

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If the NHL goes to the suburbs, the Jazz go to. He has stated as much and that makes sense. He doesn't want to maintain two arenas.

I think that's just a hollow threat. He already owns the Delta Center. What would he realistically do if the state/county/city refused to give him additional public money? Burn it to the ground out of spite and give the land back to the county?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

Salt Lake is not perfect, but it has done just fine for 100+ years without an NHL team. I don't understand why losing the team that we've never had is going to be so ruinous.

As for the Jazz, Smith already invested hundreds of millions into downtown when he bought the Delta Center. He's not an idiot and is not going to walk away from all that investment and pay for a new arena somewhere else out of his own pocket.

I'm not naive, I recognize that professional sports ownership in 2024 is mostly just a real estate investment scheme, but there's no reason the public has to dump $900 million into this particular scheme.

It is naive to believe the Jazz wouldn't move with the NHL team. There is no way Smith keeps them operating in two different arenas.

Also: this deal was in the works before Salt Lake landed a NHL team. This was explicitly about keeping the Jazz downtown because Smith's whole intent was to build a multipurpose arena in the south-end of the metro and eventually move the NHL team in when they got one (initially expected to be an expansion team until the Coyotes were basically forced to sell by the NHL).

[RC14]

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It's not a hollow threat. As we have discussed before, Smith isn't going to risk the possibility that the Jazz and the new NHL team will compete with each other for attendance on the same night. If they share an arena, the two leagues are forced to make sure the schedules don't overlap. This is true in even the largest markets, which we are not.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by RC14

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It's not a hollow threat. As we have discussed before, Smith isn't going to risk the possibility that the Jazz and the new NHL team will compete with each other for attendance on the same night. If they share an arena, the two leagues are forced to make sure the schedules don't overlap. This is true in even the largest markets, which we are not.

And Smith would do what with the Delta Center had the legislature not incentivized him to stay?

Do you honestly think he would have built a new arena out of his own pocket and just abandoned the Delta Center 4 years after buying it and 7 years after the Millers put $125 million (of their own $, incidentally) into renovations?

Realistically, what he'd have done is not buy an NHL team had the state not been willing to give him back the same amount of money he paid for the Coyotes and the Jazz would have continued to play in the Delta Center as it exists today for the foreseeable future.

[RC14]

My suspicion would be that he would use it as a concert venue but it doesn't really mater.

The Delta Center, in it's current form, is not a long term solution for a hockey arena. It is probably going to cost him more to renovate it then it would have cost to build an arena on the south town mall site and he will loose out on revenue while the arena is being renovated and he doesn't have the real estate around it to recoup the cost. The natural solution would be to go down south and build a new arena while the Delta Center is still making money and develop the land around the new arena to help pay for it.
There is no way, in my mind, that his original plan was to threaten the city and take over the convention center so that he could spend the next several years trying to renovate the arena with two team playing in it, waiting for the convention center to be demolished and for his new district to be approved and built in it's place when he could simply start building a new arena and district in Sandy.

Again, I don't like the fact that there is any public money involved but I don't, for one second believe that this was his plan all along.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by RC14

The Delta Center, in it's current form, is not a long term solution for a hockey arena. It is probably going to cost him more to renovate it then it would have cost to build an arena on the south town mall site

This was certainly a factor in Smith's decision-making around buying the Coyotes, which occured only after S.B. 272 essentially guaranteed the taxpayers would give him money equivalent to the amount he spent to buy the team.

So it's important to note that it ultimately isn't costing HIM anything to renovate the Delta Center, the $900,000,000 of tax revenue that is being given to SEG is paying for the renovation. The SEG rep at the city council meeting said as much this afternoon.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

Do you honestly think he would have built a new arena out of his own pocket and just abandoned the Delta Center 4 years after buying it and 7 years after the Millers put $125 million (of their own $, incidentally) into renovations?

Absolutely.

I think it's pretty clear what Smith's plan was:

Lobby to get land to build a multi-purpose arena somewhere in the south-end of the valley or Utah County. The Jazz would continue to play at the Delta Center until that arena was built and at that time, Smith would either be on the cusp of having a NHL expansion team or one already awarded to the state.

This wasn't likely to happen next year or the year after that. I believe the Coyotes relocating sped up the timeline significantly. My guess is that Smith expected to have a NHL team ready to go during the next round of expansion, which likely won't happen until the end of the decade.

By that point, the Delta Center would have been close to 40 years old and the last renovations having happened a decade earlier.

I think Salt Lake saw what was happening: if they didn't produce an enticing offer to Smith, he was likely to bail on the city in the next few years.

The writing was on the wall my dude. Go back and listen to Smith a year ago. In June, 2023, he was on the podcast 32 Thoughts and he basically said his plan was to build a multi-purpose arena:

When asked if he sees a new all-in-one arena in the future, Smith answered. “For sure. Like, if we’re rolling in those two together? That’s no question. And whether that’s in the existing spot or a new spot — I think that’s part of it. But the good news is, with some of the land struggles that you see in other places, I think we’re a little more set up for that for whatever reason. It doesn’t mean there’s a whole bunch of empty land. It’s just more of this structure of our city and state, there’s a little bit more opportunity in the way that it’s kind of grown out.”

He absolutely sounded like he was way more open to building where the population was growing out - as he also mentioned the growth of the south valley and Utah County in the same podcast.

The Coyotes sped up the process. Salt Lake stepped up and realized Smith was almost certainly going to have his NHL team play in the same arena as his NBA team and that all eyes were looking south.

He laid it all out in that interview. He was not interested in having the Jazz and the NHL team play in two different arenas and it's clear he was definitely looking to build outside the city.

Hate what Salt Lake is doing all you want but if they didn't offer Smith the incentive they're pushing right now, we'd be hearing about a new multipurpose arena for the Jazz and the NHL team somewhere south. I don't think that's up for much debate with everything Smith has said on the subject prior to his finally announcing a commitment to downtown back in February.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Absolutely.

I think it's pretty clear what Smith's plan was:

Lobby to get land to build a multi-purpose arena somewhere in the south-end of the valley or Utah County. The Jazz would continue to play at the Delta Center until that arena was built and at that time, Smith would either be on the cusp of having a NHL expansion team or one already awarded to the state.

This wasn't likely to happen next year or the year after that. I believe the Coyotes relocating sped up the timeline significantly. My guess is that Smith expected to have a NHL team ready to go during the next round of expansion, which likely won't happen until the end of the decade.

By that point, the Delta Center would have been close to 40 years old and the last renovations having happened a decade earlier.

I think Salt Lake saw what was happening: if they didn't produce an enticing offer to Smith, he was likely to bail on the city in the next few years.

The writing was on the wall my dude. Go back and listen to Smith a year ago. In June, 2023, he was on the podcast 32 Thoughts and he basically said his plan was to build a multi-purpose arena:



He absolutely sounded like he was way more open to building where the population was growing out - as he also mentioned the growth of the south valley and Utah County in the same podcast.

The Coyotes sped up the process. Salt Lake stepped up and realized Smith was almost certainly going to have his NHL team play in the same arena as his NBA team and that all eyes were looking south.

He laid it all out in that interview. He was not interested in having the Jazz and the NHL team play in two different arenas and it's clear he was definitely looking to build outside the city.

Hate what Salt Lake is doing all you want but if they didn't offer Smith the incentive they're pushing right now, we'd be hearing about a new multipurpose arena for the Jazz and the NHL team somewhere south. I don't think that's up for much debate with everything Smith has said on the subject prior to his finally announcing a commitment to downtown back in February.

I don't believe the threat, but it that were honestly the choice, I'd say take your puck and leave.

The current deal is: "give me $900,000,000 of tax revenue to spend as I please AND give me a 99-year lease on two entire city blocks to develop for my own gain AND demolish all of the public buildings that currently exist on those blocks" and I don't think it's worth the cost.

...oh AND "hurry up and approve it by July, we'll work out the details later when it's too late for you to do anything about it"

[RC14]

I don't understand your complaint about the Salt Palace blocks. Those blocks will be more vibrant and engaging and this will connect the east and west sides of downtown. The county seems to be under the impression that we don't need as much convention space as we have. That scares me a little bit, but the convention center is a major impediment to downtown walkability, vibrancy and connectivity. Yes, Smith will benefit. So what? We will also benefit. The way I look at it, all Smith is doing is giving the city an excuse to fix the convention center problem and we get an NHL team in return. What is so bad about this?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

I don't believe the threat, but it that were honestly the choice, I'd say take your puck and leave.

The current deal is: "give me $900,000,000 of tax revenue to spend as I please AND give me a 99-year lease on two entire city blocks to develop for my own gain AND demolish all of the public buildings that currently exist on those blocks" and I don't think it's worth the cost.

...oh AND "hurry up and approve it by July, we'll work out the details later when it's too late for you to do anything about it"

It's not take your puck and leave.

It's take your puck, your basketball and every major show the Delta Center schedules and leave.

It's hard to understand the alternative and why the city would work with Smith to get him to commit to downtown, especially after they already lost the Bees to South Jordan (and who knows when we'll get a MLB team).

[nushiof]

Originally Posted by RC14

I don't understand your complaint about the Salt Palace blocks. Those blocks will be more vibrant and engaging and this will connect the east and west sides of downtown. The county seems to be under the impression that we don't need as much convention space as we have. That scares me a little bit, but the convention center is a major impediment to downtown walkability, vibrancy and connectivity. Yes, Smith will benefit. So what? We will also benefit. The way I look at it, all Smith is doing is giving the city an excuse to fix the convention center problem and we get an NHL team in return. What is so bad about this?

I agree with this. I’m encouraged by how aligned all stakeholders seem to be so far. Excited to see what they come up.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by RC14

I don't understand your complaint about the Salt Palace blocks. Those blocks will be more vibrant and engaging and this will connect the east and west sides of downtown. The county seems to be under the impression that we don't need as much convention space as we have. That scares me a little bit, but the convention center is a major impediment to downtown walkability, vibrancy and connectivity. Yes, Smith will benefit. So what? We will also benefit. The way I look at it, all Smith is doing is giving the city an excuse to fix the convention center problem and we get an NHL team in return. What is so bad about this?

A fun little post I made from over a decade ago when there was talk of expanding the Salt Palace (which I didn't like then, either!):

Originally Posted by Comrade

Four blocks?

Downtown Salt Lake City, circa 2025:



Really, tho, I have a hard time believing anything with that much dead space should take up four city blocks - and we're talking four SLC blocks. The Salt Palace has effectively divided downtown. The continued expansion will only deepen that divide for years to come. I know, I know, it needs to happen and who cares, anyway, right? But I do. I think western downtown is a hole and I'm afraid this isn't going to help matters.

The city really dropped the ball building the convention center so close to the city center. It should have been built west of the ESA, as most city convention centers are built on the outskirts of downtown, not just a mere block from the core - or tucked 'em away in a spot where they wouldn't act like a wall between areas.

Whatever. Build it out. What's a whole extra block, right? It's just a shame 200 S on the western end of downtown is quickly becoming isolated from the rest of downtown. I just fear, in 20 years, we'll be dreading having the convention center so close to the core. I feel, though maybe I'm wrong, it will stunt the growth of our center and create two downtowns that rarely, if ever, connect to one another.

The city should integrate some type of mixed-use development into the 200 S side of the convention center if they want to continue expanding westward. I think there is potential in the area, especially with the street car, but it's going to take investment and smart planning. 200 S should be the southern link between Main & the Gateway, while South Temple acts as the northern link (and can I say how much I hate that 100 S is cutoff here?). Support the redevelopment of the northern block on 200 S between 200 & 300 W. It's ugly. It's got an abandoned storefront, more parking than businesses and it's also what convention center goers see when they arrive into the city.

I guess my point is is that I think western SLC could turn more into an entertainment district with the convention center being where it is. But because it's such a hodgepodge of parking lots, lame-ass retail and shitty cheap hotels, there is no incentive whatsoever to wander through that area of the city. Between Main & the Gateway, you literally pass by more parking lots than businesses. That could be acceptable, to a degree, if it was on the outskirts of downtown. But it's not. The outskirts are still around the area of the Gateway now, not West Temple.

I mean, I've liked what they've sorta done with 200 S west of 300 West, but it needs to continue eastward and truly bridge that gap. Salt Lake is just too scattered right now and it's sad. Our downtown is great at Main and on the eastern side of the city, but everything west of Main, up until the Gateway, sucks donkey ass. It's ugly. It's desolate and I want to change that.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=9918

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by RC14

The way I look at it, all Smith is doing is giving the city an excuse to fix the convention center problem and we get an NHL team in return. What is so bad about this?

To be clear, WE don't get an NHL team, Ryan Smith does. It's not like he's going to pay the tax revenue back when he eventually sells the team at a huge profit.

I realize that residents aren't the only people who pay sales tax in SLC, but why should the equivalent of every person in Salt Lake City have to give $150/ year to one of the state's richest men for the next 30 years to fix the Salt Palace? If it's such a pressing need, why not give $900,000,000 directly to Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County to redevelop those blocks? Why are we giving all that $ AND control of public land to a private entity if it's such an important public need?

[RC14]

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Haha, I remember that post. It has aged well.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

To be clear, WE don't get an NHL team, Ryan Smith does. It's not like he's going to pay the tax revenue back when he eventually sells the team at a huge profit.

We get to enjoy it, we benefit from it. That's why so many people have already placed season ticket deposits for a team we don't even know the name of yet.

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

why should the equivalent of every person in Salt Lake City have to give $150/ year to one of the state's richest men for the next 30 years to fix the Salt Palace?

This is the only part I agree with. Not everybody wants this, therefore it is unfair that everyone has to pay for it. But that is a conversation that goes well beyond Ryan Smith and this project.

Originally Posted by arkhitektor

If it's such a pressing need, why not give $900,000,000 directly to Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County to redevelop those blocks? Why are we giving all that $ AND control of public land to a private entity if it's such an important public need?

I see it the opposite way. Why give the money to the city or county when a private company is willing to do the work? We will all receive more benefit form Smith controlling those blocks and building an entertainment district then we would get form a giant box that we have pay for the maintenance of and navigate around, to get to the other side of downtown.

[arkhitektor]

Originally Posted by RC14

I see it the opposite way. Why give the money to the city or county when a private company is willing to do the work? We will all receive more benefit form Smith controlling those blocks and building an entertainment district then we would get form a giant box that we have pay for the maintenance of and navigate around, to get to the other side of downtown.

I agree that these blocks are currently underutilized, but whether they're used for a concert hall, museum and convention center or an "entertainment district" these are two of the most centrally located and lucrative pieces of land in the entire state. They belong to the people of Salt Lake county currently. Why should we demolish the public buildings that sit on them and give control of the land to a private developer for nothing? ...it's actually less than nothing, though, since the taxpayers in SLC will have to pay additional sales taxes for the privilege of giving away public land.