DENVER | Transportation Thread

[seventwenty]

Didn't find it over the last few pages, but I know we've recently spoken about the Civic Center Station re-opening. Last night I saw the Mall Shuttle park down at the bottom of the station, so that part is all but done. It'll be nice next month once everything is complete.

[PLANSIT]

You can now chime in on Denver's preliminary locally preferred alternative (PLPA) of Center-Running BRT on East Colfax. Let planners know if you'd like to move this recommendation into the design and project development phase.

Survey

PLPA Summary Sheet

[retefio]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

You can now chime in on Denver's preliminary locally preferred alternative (PLPA) of Center-Running BRT on East Colfax. Let planners know if you'd like to move this recommendation into the design and project development phase.

Survey

PLPA Summary Sheet

Thanks PLANSIT!

Everybody who supports this plan should take a few minutes to fill out this survey and encourage friends and family with similar feelings to do so.

There is a loud contingent of largely older, upper-income residents in upscale neighborhoods like South Park Hill, Montclair, and Congress Park (and others in areas like Hale, City Park, etc.) who are vehemently opposed to the dedicated center-lane option and I'm concerned their collective voice will be a formidable force. They basically want a watered-down BRT that offers none of the benefits of BRT and does nothing to improve transit on Colfax.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by retefio

There is a loud contingent of largely older, upper-income residents in upscale neighborhoods

You've left me totally hanging... Help me out.

Why do "largely older, upper-income residents in upscale neighborhoods" oppose this? What is their thinking/reasoning?

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

You've left me totally hanging... Help me out.

Why do "largely older, upper-income residents in upscale neighborhoods" oppose this? What is their thinking/reasoning?

Traffic diversion due to loss of vehicular capacity on Colfax (bus lanes).

[The Dirt]

Speaking from personal experience, these people would oppose a traffic cone because it would change the character of the neighborhood.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Speaking from personal experience, these people would oppose a traffic cone because it would change the character of the neighborhood.

Yes and there will always be some of those. But here, afaik the East Colfax placeholders and closest neighborhoods are generally supportive of this project, many enthusiastically so.

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Traffic diversion due to loss of vehicular capacity on Colfax (bus lanes).

Ah hah, that's straightforward enough. I was scratching me head trying to understand any ageism/classism angle. It's true that "we elders" aren't as impressionable but instead more skeptical of change but that's not such a bad thing and it can be overcome. Only a minority irrationally fear change.

I assume most accept the notion that going forward transit has to be a growing part of any mobility solution but that doesn't automatically transfer to a specific project. Unfortunately I can't think of an ideal comparison elsewhere; Cleveland’s Health Line is on a wider arterial road. I assume that Las Vegas BRT is similar.

Still, it's as if the opponents are assuming few will ride the new BRT but will continue to drive. Obviously the number don't add up especially over time so it's a matter of more convincing presentation... unless minds are already frozen to change? Could be a tough-road-to-hoe if there's a ton of opposition from those with a lot of influence.

[PLANSIT]

Not all are apples to apples, but comparisons include:

Madison in Seattle
Van Ness and Geary in SF
ART in ABQ
sbX in San Bernardino
Ashland in Chicago
Euclid in Cleveland

[PLANSIT]

We can either stick our heads in the sand and wait for congestion to render our mobility useless, or we can plan for that eventuality, prioritize other modes (dealing with the near-term trade-offs), and provide meaningful and effective alternatives. Who do we want to be when we grow up?

[mhays]

Madison St. in Seattle is also a plan, not in place. It might have been a streetcar plan if it wasn't comprised of a series of steep hills and valleys. Buses, particularly electric trolleys, are just fine with steep hills.

[TakeFive]

Rant Rant

I don't know if this is relevant or NOT but I've been quietly concerned that the Streetsblog way may make as many enemies as friends. Their obsession for finding a Boogieman to create a write-up around is at least troubling.

Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. If others ie. residents and taxpayers have an opposing opinion then it's legitimate... to them. It's highly important to respect their concerns if you have any hope of changing minds. If your first response to someone who disagrees is to insult them... you're already toast. At least this would be contrary to everything I have ever learned.

The soon-to-retire editor-in-chief of the DBJ Neil Westergaard is one of these concerned citizens. A recent piece in Streetsblog made him both the pigeon and the foil. He was happy to jump on the blog and offer his indignation and own views. I attempted to offer rational benefits to the E Colfax BRT but while respectful to me it fell on deaf ears. He was too busy being rightfully disrespected. Now if you want to impassion others to fight against your cause then insulting them can be highly effective.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Not all are apples to apples, but comparisons include:

Except for Madison as mhays explains, all are good examples of where BRT has been well-received and successful - but not specifically comparable to E Colfax. Madison would be a great example if it already had a history.

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Traffic diversion due to loss of vehicular capacity on Colfax (bus lanes).

So some people have what they believe is an obvious concern and objection. Grrreat, something so well-defined and reasonable is much, much easier to deal with than an irrational ideology - although there may be some of this present too.

Take So Broadway. Even to my skeptical surprise installing the bike lanes by stealing a vehicle lane proved not to increase congestion except maybe at times very, very minimally.

Ofc Broadway had more lanes to begin with compared to E Colfax. But wait... what about the avenues. How many total lanes are there on 13th, 14th, 17th and 18th avenues? After the experience on So Broadway how can E Colfax possibly create havoc when there are so many other alternative lanes?

Most of the disagreeable crowd auto-assume that all buses and bus routes are all the same. Buses are buses after all. It's important to stress, repeat and reiterate that BRT is uniquely different. Tell them that E Colfax will offer First Class with wine and cheese; even if a silly, sarcastic joke it's makes the point that not all bus service is the same and that the enhanced quality of BRT should be attractive to 'choice' riders who otherwise would prefer to drive.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Except for Madison as mhays explains, all are good examples of where BRT has been well-received and successful - but not specifically comparable to E Colfax. Madison would be a great example if it already had a history.

Yes, I'm aware Madison is in design, as are Geary, Van Ness, and Ashland. There are only a half dozen Center-Running BRTs in the US. Not a lot of comparison opportunities. Euclid is extremely similar to Colfax and has a cross-section (100') that Colfax will emulate (except for bike facility) for a large portion.

Euclid BRT

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Yes, I'm aware Madison is in design, as are Geary, Van Ness, and Ashland. There are only a half dozen Center-Running BRTs in the US. Not a lot of comparison opportunities. Euclid is extremely similar to Colfax and has a cross-section (100') that Colfax will emulate (except for bike facility) for a large portion.

Thanks for the correction. Although I've read a lot including about the Health Line for whatever reason I thought Euclid was a wider avenue with more lanes. I'm happy to stand corrected; I do have difficulty recalling all details. In this case I'd agree Cleveland is an exceptional comparison. Given it's acclaimed success and both Euclid and E Colfax will have an acclaimed hospital for a destination. Then there's the additional investment along Euclid Ave that happened too. What's not to like?

[Cirrus]

So, I'm trying to build a list of the busiest individual bus lines in each major US city. Interestingly, Denver is punching quite a bit above weight.

Denver's busiest lines are:
MallRide - 45,000 daily riders
Colfax - 22,000 daily riders

Compare that to the peaks for the "big 9" US transit cities:
NY..............48,000
LA..............32,000
SF..............55,000
DC..............21,000
Chicago.........32,000
Boston..........15,000
Philadelphia....18,000
Seattle.........17,000
Portland........(no data yet)

There are still a lot of gaps in my data, but I think with MallRide Denver is going to have probably the 3rd highest peak in the US. Unless Boston, Miami, or some city completely out of left field can top that, it's higher than any bus line in any US city besides NY or SF.

Even subtracting MallRide and going with Colfax's 22,000, Denver punches quite a bit above weight. Look:

More Denver-peer-level cities:
Houston........13,000
Dallas......... 5,000 (yikes)
Phoenix........10,000
Minneapolis....15,000
Cleveland......14,000 (the aforementioned HealthLine)
San Antonio.... 6,000
Kansas City.... 9,000
Milwaukee......12,000

I don't have data yet for Miami, Atlanta, Detroit, San Diego, Baltimore, Saint Louis, Vegas, Pittsburgh, Sacto, SLC... other peer cities. Like I said, a lot of holes.

But there's a pretty clear case to be made that Denver's peaks are outliers, both MallRide and Colfax. No other city outside the "big 9" cracks 20k/day, and not even all of them do. And so far (incomplete data caveat) none outside the big 9 top even 15k/day, much less 20k (Edit: Pittsburgh data just came in at 21k/day, so there's at least one peer city in Denver's range.)

Now, there is a big difference once you go down a bit. For example New York has several bus lines in the 40,000 range, and DC has several in the 20,000 range. Their "peaks" really look more like rounded curves, with a gradual drop-off from the top, as opposed to Denver where there are these 2 big skinny peaks and then a much more precipitous drop-off. But still, for Denver to have peaks in that range looks really extraordinary.

[PLANSIT]

Love this. Thanks for putting together.

Denver starts to flatten out in the 9k-14k range with several corridors including FF (14k), Federal (13k), Broadway/Lincoln (10k), and Havana (11k) having strong ridership.

I think if you have a look at average yearly ridership data, you'll see that Denver has historically punched above it's weight (like Baltimore) for its bus system (Q4 2016, I think Denver had 10th highest w/ 231k trips). Unfortunately, until very recently, RTD hasn't focused on that as much.

Why is Portland a "Big 9" transit city? Mode share?

[DenverInfill]

Thanks for the numbers, Cirrus!

Clarification: When you say the "Colfax" line are your referring to the 15, 15L, 16, 16L or some combination of those routes?

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Thanks for the numbers, Cirrus!

Clarification: When you say the "Colfax" line are your referring to the 15, 15L, 16, 16L or some combination of those routes?

15 and 15L account for the 22k.

[mhays]

Are you aggregating routes on corridors in other cities, at least in the spokes?

For downtown corridors I'd imagine a lot of bus malls would be way higher, because dozens of routes will use a single street.

[Cirrus]

Are you aggregating routes on corridors in other cities, at least in the spokes?

I'm accepting multi-route families on a single line if they function as a single trunk with only minor branches. I am not accepting short stretches where several obviously different lines share a few blocks downtown.

This does, of course, account for the MallRide irregularity. Denver isn't the only city with a downtown transit mall, but other cities run their trunk buses from outside downtown onto the mall, whereas Denver terminates most of its neighborhood buses at one end of the mall or the other, and forces a transfer. There are pros and cons to both methods.

Why is Portland a "Big 9" transit city? Mode share?

Intuitive based on experience and common perceptions. There's a widely agreed-upon (and easily measurable objectively) "big 6" of transit/urban cities, consisting of NY, SF, DC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, and then you hear a lot about LA, Seattle, and Portland too, for various reasons.

But, here's the objective data supporting it. Baltimore is up there in that second group too, but it's not making headlines the way Seattle or Portland (or Denver) are. Denver would clearly be in the conversation if we went to more than 10.


By Arturo Ramos - Own work based on data from Public Transportation Usage Among U.S. Workers: 2008 and 2009; U.S. Census Bureau,, CC BY-SA 3.0,