Toronto: Tea Party mayor on the rocks

[MolsonExport]

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Re: teaparty - Canada was actually at the forefront of this sort of movement in the 90s

it was just called the Reform Party.

People assume Canadians are taking their cues from an American movement but in reality it's just addled memories and media saturation.

either way they're just branch arms of elitists masquerading as populists.

As for Ford, I'm actually surprised how fast the tide turned against him. He and his handlers really misjudged his popularity and the reasons for his election -namely poor alternative candidates. Miller would have won again had he run.

I don't see how the Reform Party had very much in common with the Tea Party.

The Reform Party's main purpose was about "the West wants in".

[ue]

Toronto and Southern Ontario are perhaps more "Americanized" than other parts of Canada in very miniscule ways (though Toronto is definitely not American, it is in fact very Canadian, and rightly so) due to that aforementioned "global mindedness." Why America as the main international influence over Japan or Namibia? Because it is closest! With that same logic, it would be comparing apples to oranges when comparing the "American-ness" of Toronto vs Berlin. A more apt comparison with Berlin is how Polish or French or Scandinavian or Czech influenced it is. Berlin is a lot farther from the U.S. and doesn't even speak the same language.

[flar]

I grew up right on the border, raised on Detroit media. My elementary school friends got guns for their birthdays. Heard all kinds of stuff about George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Vaguely remember hearing the name Sir John A. Macdonald. Who the fuck are Chilliwack and Trooper? Amazingly, we didn't have that nasally Michigan accent. London (Ont.) and Toronto always seemed noticeably Canadian to me.

[Rico Rommheim]

your school friends got GUNS for their birthdays? Jesus.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Berlin actually does feel quite "American" -in comparison to other European capitals (many reasons why and mitigating factors).

I'm sure if Toronto had maintained its more colonial attributes people would be saying it felt like an English burg.

In the end there's a lot of focus on defining the city from elsewhere in the nation (I suppose it really is that alien to some). Slightly amusing considering the people that actually live here really don't spend all that much time doing it themselves.

I'm also not so sure "American" is an insult. I doubt much people in Montreal or San Francisco are all that mortified when someone says those cities feel "European" -anymore I imagine than Berliners or Londoners would be all that insulted if you said their cities felt unlike their respective nations.

The Great Lakes is a REGION, despite imaginary borders, and thus will share many cultural similarities while at the same time maintaining a certain distinctiveness from each other.

Now back to Mayor Cheeseburger...

I know some people will argue until they are blue in the face that Toronto has a civic culture that is every bit as unique as that of Montreal or Boston, but I and others who disagree would counter that, for urban watchers like us, Toronto is a very exciting place to observe in that, for an established city of its size that is the metropolis of a country, it's about the closest thing you can find to a clean slate. With few exceptions (the Leafs - and even then, more Torontonians than you might think are indifferent to hockey), everything is up for grabs.

Now I know that there are generally two views out there and that mine falls in between the two: one is that if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because the imported American stuff doubled with the multicultural elements have occupied all the space. The second of course is that Toronto does have its own strong civic culture and that the naysayers are either 1) insecure Torontonians or 2) jealous fellow Canadians who are envious of Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

I'm also not so sure "American" is an insult. ...

Good point.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

But nobody seems to consider London or Berlin "American". In fact those cities are often held up as disctinctively British and German places, respectively, even if they have a blend of domestic and international culture.

I am familiar with many large cities and Toronto stands out for its indifference to the national culture of the country of which it is the metropolis. Indifference to Canadian culture (and stated preference for U.S. alternatives) is a phenomenon you find in most parts of Canada, but Toronto takes it to a whole other level.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think the "global city" view is 100% wrong but it is an overly flattering interpretation of Toronto's relative lack of a sense of place. .

I could not agree more. The cultural diet of your average Torontonian is not really that different from that of people in Calgary or even Chicago. It's not as if Bangledeshi movies topped the box office there or Portuguese novels were the best-sellers, while the rest of us watch Bruce Willis and read Danielle Steel.

Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

I don't see how the Reform Party had very much in common with the Tea Party.

The Reform Party's main purpose was about "the West wants in".

It was a populist movement. They're very similar.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Now I know that there are generally two views out there and that mine falls in between the two: one is that if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because the imported American stuff doubled with the multicultural elements have occupied all the space. The second of course is that Toronto does have its own strong civic culture and that the naysayers are either 1) insecure Torontonians or 2) jealous fellow Canadians who are envious of Toronto.

I know we've had this discussion before (goddamn, is the Toronto culture thing a daily discussion in this place?), but neither are really true. Look back 50+ years and Toronto most certainly had its own civic culture - not necessarily a unique one, but nonetheless a cultured shared throughout the city. Presently, the city is in a state of change. This means that there is no underlying unifying culture (though it also doesn't mean there will never be one), but there are still several strong local cultures within that. Having an extended period of rapid change and development causing radical changes to a culture is nothing new or unique to Toronto.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.

I heartily disagree. The cultures derived from those immigrant communities extend beyond their immediate ethnic community for "a few generations", and go much deeper than watching movies from those countries. And I'd also disagree that its not unique to Toronto - certainly multiculturalism exists elsewhere, but rarely to the same extent (maybe New York and London). People growing up here are so heavily exposed to a multitude of various cultures on a personal level (thats the important part) that at least a few of them just naturally become a part of our world view, in addition to a Canadian one and whatever ancestral culture we have. A sort of inherent familiarity with certain other far-flung parts of the world. I'm not explaining this idea very well, but hopefully you get the basic gist of it.

The idea that Toronto is basically got rural, white Southern Ontario with a bunch of folks from India and Jamaica and Portugal doing their thing around them is...very inaccurate.

[Gerrard]

I really don't think Toronto is indifferent to Canadian culture especially considering so much of what we define as Canadian culture is actually produced within the city itself. To say so, is rather simplistic. But your view seems less shaped by actual experience and more by what you've read and other assorted anecdotal evidence.

You'd also have to define Canadian culture which, frankly, is rather difficult.

You might be right in one aspect however that Torontonians do seem rather indifferent to the nation they live in outside of their region because I can't imagine any of us spending time discussing the finer points of what makes Montreal, Calgary or Vancouver etc. tick.

Maybe considering this topic arises every time there's an unrelated thread about Toronto the admins might make a sticky where Canadians from outside Toronto can post their opinions and misconceptions of Toronto and Torontonians can respond in kind for the purposes of education and greater cultural understanding.

I should also add that lacking that overall sense of place isn't necessarily a bad thing either. It doesn't make people any less anchored, attached, homesick or make them feel they're lacking a sense of community. The neighborhoods of the city tend to make up for this lack of civic cohesion.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by someone123

I never said that Toronto is identical to a US city. It is not. I've been to many parts of Canada and the US and many differences are immediately apparent. But so are lots of similarities, despite the fact that we're not supposed to talk about them because some Canadians wish their own culture were more exotic.

Huh? I don't know how you got any of that out of my post. You're projecting.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I could not agree more. The cultural diet of your average Torontonian is not really that different from that of people in Calgary or even Chicago. It's not as if Bangledeshi movies topped the box office there or Portuguese novels were the best-sellers, while the rest of us watch Bruce Willis and read Danielle Steel.

Sure, there are large immigrant communities which stay in tune with their homeland cultures for a few generations, but this is not unique to Toronto, and does not really affect someone from Toronto named John Smith (or Rob Ford) and make them dramatically culturally different from the rest of us.

Gotta love the subtle digs...the minimizing Toronto culture...lol. Is it that hard to imagine that Toronto has different cultural offerings from other cities, and richer culture than smaller cities?

Originally Posted by Gerrard

You'd also have to define Canadian culture which, frankly, is rather difficult.

Canada is similar to the US in the same way that Austria is similar to Germany or Chile to Argentina. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to constantly navel gaze about how to define ourselves.

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

It was a populist movement. They're very similar.

Sure, they're both populist movements... but that's about it. The central theme of the Reform Party regarded western alienation... and not conservative values... which could already be had by way of the PC Party of Canada. The Tea Party has nothing to do with a number of states feeling excluded from the decision making process of the US Federal Government... which was what the Reform Party was all about and why it was formed. The Reform Party's political reform policies existed to ameliorate this sense of western alienation.

[kool maudit]

this is becoming a series of increasingly haughty, sniffy, "well, interesting you should say that" sort of accusations of provincialness - that great bugbear of colonial people everywhere. good old Canada.

[someone123]

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere. And even if somebody were to come up with rock-solid logic I'm not sure it would overcome the neurosis at play here.

For the record I don't consider it an insult to call a place "American". American culture has quite a few positive traits and is in some ways better than Canadian or European culture. Americans tend to be a lot more entrepreneurial, for example.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by someone123

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere.

Well yeah, we're talking about culture here...something rather intangible and highly subjective. Can't quite pull up any sort of data or numbers to "prove" anything.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by someone123

Part of the problem is that this discussion is so vague that it never goes anywhere. And even if somebody were to come up with rock-solid logic I'm not sure it would overcome the neurosis at play here.

For the record I don't consider it an insult to call a place "American". American culture has quite a few positive traits and is in some ways better than Canadian or European culture. Americans tend to be a lot more entrepreneurial, for example.

- Using up 25% of the world resources
- Screwing up ANY chance for me to get a full-time job cause of their stupid banking system and fractured government
- The cultural trait to fork out $50,000 to have a child in a hospital, or repair a stab wound
- 11,000 die annually from gun crimes, which reminds me, you don't need an AK-47 to kill deer...
- Blaming everything on somebody (Columbine = Manson, Westboro "Bullshit" Baptist Church, etc)

I could go on, but you get the idea guys

[jlousa]

Just to touch on how a city with a residential condo boom can get into financial trouble, it's quite easy.
Residential property taxes do not come even close to covering the cost of services provided to them, in fact they pay only about half the costs. Commercial property taxes on the other hand pay over and above the cost of services they consume leading to a subsidy for residents.
So when you have a condo boom especially one that displaces commercial properties, the end result is that the city is worse off financially.
The more residential units that come on stream w/o an equilibrating ratio of commercial spaces the worse the problem gets.
The only way to stop that is by doubling residential property taxes. Anyone think that will fly with the public?

[Gerrard]

2 things.

Reading the Globe this morning discovered that Toronto is the least liked city in Canada by Canadians. No surprise -surely the reasons are nebulous and probably have more to do with media concentration and general fame or infamy.

The other -and back to the original subject: there's a pic attached to a story about Mayor Ford (which incidentally has little to do with the story) in the Star and he's shown stuffing his big maw with a bag of chips. So yeah, the bloom is off of that rose.