National Economy

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How do foreign students help this? Even if some people arrive the same forces inducing people to want to leave Kapuskasing will still be in place.

Well if we sent real students to places needing people it could help. Cape Breton had sort of real students for awhile and it helped even if they were clearly unprepared for the curriculm they were fee paying students contributing to a dying region. Now that we let students work and stopped screening them we get people who are really here to work. If we want low skilled workers we should just say so.

[zahav]

Tech job growth soars in Vancouver, as salaries remain cheap

Vancouver topped 19 North American technology hubs for job growth in that sector between 2019 and 2023, according to a new JLL Markets Perspective: Technology Industry report.

This is despite having the second lowest salaries among cities examined.

Vancouver's technology job growth was 68 per cent in those years, while Nashville, Tennessee was second with 43-per-cent growth. Austin, Texas ranked No. 3 among cities with more than one million residents with 41-per-cent growth.

The average Vancouver technology worker earned US$102,975, the report found. That was the second lowest compensation among the 19 cities, only beating Toronto's average US$98,469 in technology-worker earnings.

I found this wording strange: "This is despite having the second lowest salaries among cities examined." . Despite is the wrong word, I think it's partially because of having the second lowest salaries that it grew so much, no in spite of it. The cities with the highest salaries (SF and Silicon Valley) had the lowest job growth, so this suggests to me that cost is at least a factor in job growth, and having salaries doesn't seem to correlate with growth... I also was surprised that Vancouver tech salaries are higher than Toronto's, I don't think that's always been the case? I always knew Canadian salaries were lower, but honestly thought Toronto's would have been higher than Vancouver's. Granted this is just one report, hardly gospel written in stone (especially when dealing with the tech industry, the term is so broad and open to a degree of subjectiveness depending on who is writing the report, which exact stats they gather, etc.). JLL is a massive global real estate services company (Google them if you aren't familiar) and not one of those dubious clickbait publications, so they would be a fairly good source (again, it's a study/report, not scientific absolute proof). So yes I was surprised to see the salary stat, maybe I'm the one who's out of the loop and this has been the case forever, but I seem to remember salaries in Toronto being higher?

Like it or not, having comparably lower salaries and a low C$ are major factors still in Canadian growth from foreign companies. Yes the quality of life, quality of education, diverse population etc. are huge advantages, but if our dollar was 50% more expensive than the US$ and asking salaries were comparable to the Bay Area, there would not be the same level of growth. All we can do is continue to support the industry, invest in all those good things that make a city attractive, maintain our education standards, and continue to have a relatively generous immigration policy for the industry. We can't control the C$, and the market determines salaries, so it is what it is. After tax wages for pretty much every good job (professionals, engineers, lawyers, doctors) is way higher in the US than Canada, so Vancouver and Toronto being the bottom two isn't a huge shocker, it's probably the same thing if you measured a bunch of different professions. It may suck for the employees in Canada who need higher salaries to afford a house, but the fact is that the aggregate benefit for both cities is job growth and a stronger tech industry. If that means the workers suffer with a $102,000 salary, I am not going to shed a tear. Plenty of people earn way way less than that, and can make do. Increasing wages massively would benefit a few, but could potentially hurt a lot, and destroy the industry. Easy choice if you ask me.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by zahav

Tech job growth soars in Vancouver, as salaries remain cheap

Vancouver topped 19 North American technology hubs for job growth in that sector between 2019 and 2023, according to a new JLL Markets Perspective: Technology Industry report.

This is despite having the second lowest salaries among cities examined.

Vancouver's technology job growth was 68 per cent in those years, while Nashville, Tennessee was second with 43-per-cent growth. Austin, Texas ranked No. 3 among cities with more than one million residents with 41-per-cent growth.

The average Vancouver technology worker earned US$102,975, the report found. That was the second lowest compensation among the 19 cities, only beating Toronto's average US$98,469 in technology-worker earnings.

I found this wording strange: "This is despite having the second lowest salaries among cities examined." . Despite is the wrong word, I think it's partially because of having the second lowest salaries that it grew so much, no in spite of it. The cities with the highest salaries (SF and Silicon Valley) had the lowest job growth, so this suggests to me that cost is at least a factor in job growth, and having salaries doesn't seem to correlate with growth... I also was surprised that Vancouver tech salaries are higher than Toronto's, I don't think that's always been the case? I always knew Canadian salaries were lower, but honestly thought Toronto's would have been higher than Vancouver's. Granted this is just one report, hardly gospel written in stone (especially when dealing with the tech industry, the term is so broad and open to a degree of subjectiveness depending on who is writing the report, which exact stats they gather, etc.). JLL is a massive global real estate services company (Google them if you aren't familiar) and not one of those dubious clickbait publications, so they would be a fairly good source (again, it's a study/report, not scientific absolute proof). So yes I was surprised to see the salary stat, maybe I'm the one who's out of the loop and this has been the case forever, but I seem to remember salaries in Toronto being higher?

Like it or not, having comparably lower salaries and a low C$ are major factors still in Canadian growth from foreign companies. Yes the quality of life, quality of education, diverse population etc. are huge advantages, but if our dollar was 50% more expensive than the US$ and asking salaries were comparable to the Bay Area, there would not be the same level of growth. All we can do is continue to support the industry, invest in all those good things that make a city attractive, maintain our education standards, and continue to have a relatively generous immigration policy for the industry. We can't control the C$, and the market determines salaries, so it is what it is. After tax wages for pretty much every good job (professionals, engineers, lawyers, doctors) is way higher in the US than Canada, so Vancouver and Toronto being the bottom two isn't a huge shocker, it's probably the same thing if you measured a bunch of different professions. It may suck for the employees in Canada who need higher salaries to afford a house, but the fact is that the aggregate benefit for both cities is job growth and a stronger tech industry. If that means the workers suffer with a $102,000 salary, I am not going to shed a tear. Plenty of people earn way way less than that, and can make do. Increasing wages massively would benefit a few, but could potentially hurt a lot, and destroy the industry. Easy choice if you ask me.

[Xelebes]

Just a reminder, do not post full articles.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

Just a reminder, do not post full articles.

Oh OK sorry I didn't know that was a rule! Good to know, thanks!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by zahav

It may suck for the employees in Canada who need higher salaries to afford a house, but the fact is that the aggregate benefit for both cities is job growth and a stronger tech industry. If that means the workers suffer with a $102,000 salary, I am not going to shed a tear. Plenty of people earn way way less than that, and can make do. Increasing wages massively would benefit a few, but could potentially hurt a lot, and destroy the industry. Easy choice if you ask me.

Not sure the net effect is positive. Super low wages for the same jobs has the obvious effect of massively driving talent away. Canadian Brain Drain to the USA is a major phenomenon and will only accelerate if the ratio wages/cost-of-living gets worse (it’s already a horribly bad value proposition in Vancouver and Toronto; anyone who can decamp to the USA probably does.)

[MolsonExport]

^family is sticky. I know many who have stayed in Canada despite lousy comparative salaries (my situation), and I have know many that moved to the States only to move back to Canada despite much lower earnings. Family, and revulsion at the culture war horror show that is America today.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^family is sticky. I know many who have stayed in Canada despite lousy comparative salaries (my situation), and I have know many that moved to the States only to move back to Canada despite much lower earnings. Family, and revulsion at the culture war horror show that is America today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIZThDEn7_g

[shreddog]

I guess that this is a case of YMMV ... in that I know many of my peers who movd to the US and never looked back (tech) over the past decades.

I also know many others not in tech who did the same.

A number of them of them have even retired there (two to god foresacken communities in FLA .... yech).

I also have other friends who stayed in Canada, whose 20 something kids have now moved to the US. How long they will stay is unknown, but if you're working in tech, the US is the big show, and not just for the money.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I know many who have stayed in Canada despite lousy comparative salaries (my situation), and I have know many that moved to the States only to move back to Canada despite much lower earnings.

FWIW, I did make the move to the US in the 90's, not for the money, but the opportunity (though the money was nice). Came back to Canada, not because of family nor revulsion, but because of work opporuntity for my spouse .... who is now my Ex. In hind sight may have screwed that one up

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by zahav

I found this wording strange: "This is despite having the second lowest salaries among cities examined." . Despite is the wrong word, I think it's partially because of having the second lowest salaries that it grew so much, no in spite of it. The cities with the highest salaries (SF and Silicon Valley) had the lowest job growth, so this suggests to me that cost is at least a factor in job growth, and having salaries doesn't seem to correlate with growth... I also was surprised that Vancouver tech salaries are higher than Toronto's, I don't think that's always been the case? I always knew Canadian salaries were lower, but honestly thought Toronto's would have been higher than Vancouver's. Granted this is just one report, hardly gospel written in stone (especially when dealing with the tech industry, the term is so broad and open to a degree of subjectiveness depending on who is writing the report, which exact stats they gather, etc.). JLL is a massive global real estate services company (Google them if you aren't familiar) and not one of those dubious clickbait publications, so they would be a fairly good source (again, it's a study/report, not scientific absolute proof). So yes I was surprised to see the salary stat, maybe I'm the one who's out of the loop and this has been the case forever, but I seem to remember salaries in Toronto being higher?

Like it or not, having comparably lower salaries and a low C$ are major factors still in Canadian growth from foreign companies. Yes the quality of life, quality of education, diverse population etc. are huge advantages, but if our dollar was 50% more expensive than the US$ and asking salaries were comparable to the Bay Area, there would not be the same level of growth. All we can do is continue to support the industry, invest in all those good things that make a city attractive, maintain our education standards, and continue to have a relatively generous immigration policy for the industry. We can't control the C$, and the market determines salaries, so it is what it is. After tax wages for pretty much every good job (professionals, engineers, lawyers, doctors) is way higher in the US than Canada, so Vancouver and Toronto being the bottom two isn't a huge shocker, it's probably the same thing if you measured a bunch of different professions. It may suck for the employees in Canada who need higher salaries to afford a house, but the fact is that the aggregate benefit for both cities is job growth and a stronger tech industry. If that means the workers suffer with a $102,000 salary, I am not going to shed a tear. Plenty of people earn way way less than that, and can make do. Increasing wages massively would benefit a few, but could potentially hurt a lot, and destroy the industry. Easy choice if you ask me.

These types of reports are very liberal/generous with the definition of tech. In Toronto, a significant part of the tech headcount is back office IT jobs at the big banks, IMs and insurers, despite their spurious relationship with the highly valued segment of the industry. That's one of the reasons why the average salary gets dragged down. In the US, these jobs would be sourced to cheaper locales like Texas, Florida and Charlotte NC, but in Canada there's no real cost advantage to move these jobs out of the GTA.

Your analysis is flawed because it conflates lower rates with a vibrant tech sector. But unlike manufacturing that's not how the tech industry works. Tech talent like entrepreneurship is very peaky, where for instance one AI tech star is worth more than a thousand middling back office tech staff.

Increasing wages will only cement the city's reputation as a global tech hub and attract the best talent. In response the FAANGS, Magnificent7, unicorns and leading tech firms will staff their most important A-teams there. Have a look at where big tech and generates most of their patents, innovations and IPs, it's in the Bay Area, New York and Seattle, NOT Vancouver or Toronto. For the most part the tech sector in Toronto and Vancouver is getting the lower value scraps that the top tech hubs have left behind as they continue to move up the chain.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^family is sticky. I know many who have stayed in Canada despite lousy comparative salaries (my situation), and I have know many that moved to the States only to move back to Canada despite much lower earnings. Family, and revulsion at the culture war horror show that is America today.

Family is an obvious reason why many more Canadians don't head south but, traditionally, it was also that Canada offered a higher quality of life but in the last 8 years that gap has narrowed considerably.

We have tens of thousands sleeping on the streets and in our urban parks, Food Banks in every little town imaginable and have a numbing 2 million Canadians using them every month. Our housing costs were traditionally lower than the US but now we are much more expensive nationwide. Our healthcare system is on the verge of collapse with scandalously long waiting lists for even the most basic surgeries to the point that many, including myself, are wondering if our public health system is worth maintaining, at least in it's present form.

Once the lower wages and higher taxes were worth the cost of not having to live in the US with all it's social ills but now, for many, the trade-off is worth it not due to the US improving so much but rather how Canada has seen it's standard of living and quality of life evaporate under Trudeau. He has done so much damage to our nation, I wonder if we will ever be able to repair it.

When I was young, even the idea of moving to the US for greener pastures was unthinkable but if I was still young, I would now give it serious consideration and that's just plain sad.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure the net effect is positive. Super low wages for the same jobs has the obvious effect of massively driving talent away. Canadian Brain Drain to the USA is a major phenomenon and will only accelerate if the ratio wages/cost-of-living gets worse (it’s already a horribly bad value proposition in Vancouver and Toronto; anyone who can decamp to the USA probably does.)

Oh absolutely it is not a positive. It is just more pressure on housing when many of these jobs are filled with those who can’t get H1b visa into the USA. And how many of the tech firms they’re working at are Canadian and how many are working for US companies like Amazon (in their huge new downtown Vancouver building), Microsoft or US game companies?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Oh absolutely it is not a positive. It is just more pressure on housing when many of these jobs are filled with those who can’t get H1b visa into the USA. And how many of the tech firms they’re working at are Canadian and how many are working for US companies like Amazon (in their huge new downtown Vancouver building), Microsoft or US game companies?

With tech at least, it's admittedly a really mixed bag. Those multinationals usually want specific talent. Not just bodies to fill a chair. So if they weren't in the US with H1s or in Canada, they'd still be working for those companies remotely at some other location. Those jobs definitely wouldn't be in Canada if there wasn't a pathway to bringing that talent in. Our tech industry has probably benefited a bit by adding that talent to the workforce (it's an increase of both size and talent) and our economy has probably benefited by adding more high paying jobs net to the economy. It's really not the worst type of immigration. This is very different from students and TFWs working fast food and retail. That is straight up suppression of wages and productivity.

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Oh absolutely it is not a positive. It is just more pressure on housing when many of these jobs are filled with those who can’t get H1b visa into the USA. And how many of the tech firms they’re working at are Canadian and how many are working for US companies like Amazon (in their huge new downtown Vancouver building), Microsoft or US game companies?

Actually it is a positive. Those are high paying jobs (higher pay than say tourism, retail or most services). If they are programs being run by the Canadian division of a multi-national it is money coming into the country bumping up out GDP.

I would put those jobs in the same category as manufacturing. They are net positives to Canadian economy.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

With tech at least, it's admittedly a really mixed bag. Those multinationals usually want specific talent. But just bodies to fill a chair. So if they weren't in the US with H1s or in Canada, they'd still be working for those companies remotely at some other location. Our tech industry has probably benefited a bit by adding that talent to the workforce and our economy has probably benefited by adding more high paying jobs net to the economy. It's really not the worst type of immigration. This is very different from students and TFWs working fast food and retail. That is straight up suppression of wages and productivity.

Exactly.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^family is sticky. I know many who have stayed in Canada despite lousy comparative salaries (my situation), and I have know many that moved to the States only to move back to Canada despite much lower earnings. Family, and revulsion at the culture war horror show that is America today.

I obviously didn't see any family or friends during the time I briefly lived in Vancouver a couple years ago (way too far), while if I had relocated to the Boston area for opportunity earlier in my life, I'd be a ~4 hour drive away from family and (old) friends.

Your extended family is on average hours away from your current location... (I'll limit myself to that much info! )

[casper]

Well, its started. We now have the start of expanded oil tanker traffic in and out of the port of Vancouver.

While I understand and appreciate they made the right decision due to the economic benefit this has for Alberta (and the country as a whole), the environmental risk BC is taking on having this traffic on the coast can't be understated.

Looks like the PM and Finance Minister are not attending any grand opening or ribbon cuttings. In fact there are no grand openings of any kind. Given the environmental risk they want to distance themselves from this endeavor. Politically I can see why, any thing they do in help Alberta will go unappreciated at the polls in Alberta. In BC there are more negatives than positives being associated with Trans-mountain.

At least they are mitigating the risk on the first shipment, an Aframax ship is a relatedly smaller oil tanker.

An Aframax tanker is heading its way to China from British Columbia after becoming the first vessel to load heavy oil from the newly expanded Trans Mountain pipeline system.

The Dubai Angel was built in South Korea in 2010 and is now operated by Dubai-based Emarat Maritime. The tanker took about two hours to make its way through Burrard Inlet, crossing under three bridges in the heart of the Port of Vancouver’s inner harbour. The tanker started out at a slow pace of one knot at Westridge and gradually increased its speed to eight knots by the time it went under the Lions Gate Bridge.

The Prime Minister’s Office and the federal Finance Department did not respond to requests for comment on Thursday about the historic voyage of the Dubai Angel.

Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...-tmx-pipeline/

[jammer139]

Interesting article on the impacts of declining office workers and downsizing of office space in Boston. The impacts on commercial office building prices is already being felt and the domino effects on the retail businesses that depend on those office workers. The impact on property taxes as the value of these buildings declines hit the municipal tax base with Boston heading towards $500M fewer tax dollars.



https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/...t-newtab-en-us

[craner]

Originally Posted by casper

Well, its started. We now have the start of expanded oil tanker traffic in and out of the port of Vancouver.

While I understand and appreciate they made the right decision due to the economic benefit this has for Alberta (and the country as a whole), the environmental risk BC is taking on having this traffic on the coast can't be understated.

Looks like the PM and Finance Minister are not attending any grand opening or ribbon cuttings. In fact there are no grand openings of any kind. Given the environmental risk they want to distance themselves from this endeavor. Politically I can see why, any thing they do in help Alberta will go unappreciated at the polls in Alberta. In BC there are more negatives than positives being associated with Trans-mountain.

At least they are mitigating the risk on the first shipment, an Aframax ship is a relatedly smaller oil tanker.




Source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...-tmx-pipeline/

Just curious - how many tankers a week make the trek to fill up at the TM Terminal ?

[casper]

Originally Posted by craner

Just curious - how many tankers a week make the trek to fill up at the TM Terminal ?

Once in full operation it is expected to be approximately 37 vessels per month.

Around 3-4 are barges that mostly transport fuel to Vancouver Island. The other 34 would be ocean going.

Yes, given the number, emergency spill response is critical consideration.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by casper

Once in full operation it is expected to be approximately 37 vessels per month.

Around 3-4 are barges that mostly transport fuel to Vancouver Island. The other 34 would be ocean going.

Yes, given the number, emergency spill response is critical consideration.

I would imagine that the implementation of additional spill response infrastructure and capabilities was likely part of the many conditions of approval required for the pipeline.