Ontario Highways

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by haljackey

To be fair, there's some points to be had here. Limited funds should be allocated to areas that need the most help and/or best bang for your buck.

Central Ontario region has some congested highways that could really benefit from some extra capacity, alternative routes or alternative transport like commuter rail.

The provincial highways in Southwest region don't really suffer from congestion all that much. The main aim of the 6-laning is safety improvements with the new concrete median, not capacity relief.

With all the cable barriers installed and the highway mostly reconstructed between Tilbury and London, I am surprised this project is progressing. I'd probably wait until the highway needs complete reconstruction again, which won't be for a few decades (hopefully).

I drive to Windsor a lot and the third lane would be nice, but many years of a 1-lane 401 will be needed due to the construction period.

Isn't congestion a safety factor? To argue one safety thing is worse than another is not good enough anymore. We need to look at the unsafe roads and fix them. You not going fast is not a good enough of a reason when there is an unsafe highway.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We need to look at the unsafe roads and fix them. You not going fast is not a good enough of a reason when there is an unsafe highway.

Isn't this what the cable barriers + complete reconstruction of the roadbed did? Yes ultimately a concrete wall is safer the upgrades done should be sufficient for a good period of time.

The last major unsafe part of the Tilbury-London stretch is a section that actually has a concrete barrier! It's the Highway 4/401 cloverleaf. I use this junction only a few times a year but it's scary as hell to use the loop ramps to get on or off the 401. They are way too tight and you can't get anywhere near highway speed merging on. To exit, you need to start braking in the mainline lanes and pray that there isn't someone merging in.

Location:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.85369.../data=!3m1!1e3

This 2004 report recommends rebuilding this interchange and it still hasn't happened. The report also recommends adding an additional lane between Highway 4 and Wellington Road. In 2008 an extra lane was added between Wellington and the 402 but that's all (but where it was most needed).

There's also a few other interchanges along the Tilbury to London stretch that could be upgraded, but start with reconstructing one of Ontario's last 2 cloverleafs.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I haven't looked at these too closely, but I am curious if their car/truck volumes are comparable to the 401? Do they have a similar amount of curves/geography? Are they just as 'important' as the 401? Do they have nearby alternate routes?

I haven't looked at great deal of the specific traffic volumes or a breakdown of the specific volumes of commercial traffic, but I feel confident enough in having enough anecdotal experience to say that these roads are similar enough to the 401 through C-K to be a fair comparison.

In general, Interstates that end in either a _5 or _0 all carry a ton of commercial vehicle traffic. And a great many of these segments of these interstates that are full of commercial traffic still only have two lanes per direction. Much like the 401 has between Tilbury and London.

Originally Posted by haljackey

I do get what you are saying, and I don't think you're coming off as arrogant. You have a 'stern' position based on your experiences and that a reasonable and prudent perspective to offer on this project.

Most often I try to argue with people not to convince them that I am correct. Rather I try to get whomever I am arguing against to consider a different perspective than the perspective that they are currently arguing for.

Originally Posted by haljackey

To me however, why not do this? Yes it costs money but southwest region may be up for another share of the province's funds for a project now that the extension in Windsor is done. The 402 is fine, except for maybe some electronic signs and tree plantings to help with sudden weather changes.

Why not do it? That is indeed the golden question.

Consider the opportunity cost of spending an additional $800 million to widen the 401.

For $800 million, the MTO could upload the VMP and upgrade it to a full freeway and still have cash to spare. London could have it's own 400-series highway for $800 million.

For $800 million, the MTO could buy the property and build the west side London ring road as a staged freeway.

For $800 million, the MTO could build an initial phase of the 424 to finally provide an adequate by-pass of Cambridge.

For $800 million, the MTO could upgrade Highway 6 north of Hamilton to a full freeway.

For $800 million, the MTO could widen the 403 between Brantford and Hamilton to six lanes. (The 403 between Brantford and the Brant/Hamilton Line has a median that's exactly as narrow as the 401's through C-K and Elgin and there is no cross-over protection there either).

etc.

Originally Posted by haljackey

All the other provincial highways that aren't downloaded are in decent shape in southwest region.

That's true, but there are certainly other sections of highway in southwest region that could use some additional lanes, or other upgrades.

Originally Posted by haljackey

To me this stretch of the 401 'could' be widened. It's 6 lanes on either side so this 4 lane gap seems a little odd. Traffic will likely increase with the new Gordie Howe Bridge completed.
-The 401 doesn't have a good alternative route for this stretch. The last good one is the 402 interchange in London and that only works if you are US-bound.
-Delays on this stretch are no good for the economy. Just in time trade is high on this corridor.
-The 401 is arguably the most important highway in Ontario, if not southern/eastern Canada. As the South Park song goes, Canada only has one road, I see this as the 401/Autoroute 20
-401 connects to the busiest international crossing in North America.

Does it need to get done? No, but would be a nice to have.

The 401 has a totally adequate alternate route through Chatham and Elgin Counties. I drove back from Windsor in October and encountered a 401 closure due to this collision:
https://london.ctvnews.ca/air-ambula...dway-1.4644620

To avoid the eastboudn closure, I bailed at Highway 21 and took Highway 2 east to the 402 to get around the 401 closure. Wouldn't you know it, but Highway 2 moved at or above the speed limit even though it had to absorb the bulk of the displaced eastbound traffic from the 401

So in fact, the 401 through Chatham-Kent is one of the few places in the southern part of the province where a major highway closure doesn't in fact cause major delays to traffic. There is sufficient other network capacity to handle the displaced vehicles during a closure.

I agree with you that the 401 is the most important highway in Canada. It is, but in my opinion that doesn't mean that the province should be throwing money at it like it's a bottomless pit.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't care one way or the other if they make it 4 lanes or 6 lanes, but after the wall and median sewers are installed, the roadway is that wide so it might as well be 6 lanes. Whether it meets whatever standard currently exists for 6 lanes now is irrelevant since that bridge is going to greatly increase 401 traffic.

Except that for a lot less money, you don't have to build a concrete wall or sewers and you end up with a highway that is effectively just as safe, and with $800 million still in your pocket. You don't have to agree with me, but I mean it's hard not to see the logic of why the MTO initially wanted to install cable median barriers instead of a concrete tall wall and widening.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

As for the highway pictures, I don't know what the point of those is. So those states put cables in, is that supposed to be it for us then until every US state decides to put a wall in? I get it, you want your part of the province to get more highway spending. Telling me that my part of the province shouldn't get highway money before yours because of some pics of US highways doesn't fly with me, sorry. Congrats on the all the Interstate experience though

I posted all of those pictures, because in each one of those examples the state DOT's chose not to widen their segments of interstate to six lanes and install a concrete median barrier, but instead installed a cable median barrier.

All of those roads that I posed pictures of are similar to the 401. Ontario's 400 series highways weren't built in a vaccum. They were built to very similar highway design standards as the US interstate network, so it's naive to think that we need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to requiring an all or nothing approach to median barrier design.

For each one of those photos that I showed, the state's could have justifiably widened those highways to six lanes much like the MTO is proposing to do between Tilbury and London.

All of those states chose the cheaper solution.

And I've never said that I want the additional funds directed to my region of the province. But I do take issue with the fact that the MTO is abandoning good engineering judgement based on the opinion from some loudmouth from St. Thomas.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Isn't this what the cable barriers + complete reconstruction of the roadbed did? Yes ultimately a concrete wall is safer the upgrades done should be sufficient for a good period of time.

The last major unsafe part of the Tilbury-London stretch is a section that actually has a concrete barrier! It's the Highway 4/401 cloverleaf. I use this junction only a few times a year but it's scary as hell to use the loop ramps to get on or off the 401. They are way too tight and you can't get anywhere near highway speed merging on. To exit, you need to start braking in the mainline lanes and pray that there isn't someone merging in.

Location:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.85369.../data=!3m1!1e3

This 2004 report recommends rebuilding this interchange and it still hasn't happened. The report also recommends adding an additional lane between Highway 4 and Wellington Road. In 2008 an extra lane was added between Wellington and the 402 but that's all (but where it was most needed).

There's also a few other interchanges along the Tilbury to London stretch that could be upgraded, but start with reconstructing one of Ontario's last 2 cloverleafs.

My guess is the closure of the Stirling Truck Plant in St. Thomas has mitigated the need somewhat for additional highway widening on the 401 in Western London.

The construction of the Wonderland Road interchange has probably lowered traffic volumes on some of the ramps of the Highway 4/401 interchange as well.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

My guess is the closure of the Stirling Truck Plant in St. Thomas has mitigated the need somewhat for additional highway widening on the 401 in Western London.

The construction of the Wonderland Road interchange has probably lowered traffic volumes on some of the ramps of the Highway 4/401 interchange as well.

Ford plant in Talbotville as well, which closed in 2011. AADT on Hwy 4 between the 401 and Elgin County Road 18 dropped from 14,200 in 2007 to 11,000 in 2012, with most of the drop happening after 2010. (AADT has gone back up since then, but not back to 2007 levels; that increase may be due to greater tourist traffic as SADT has increased steadily over the past decade.)

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Ford plant in Talbotville as well, which closed in 2011. AADT on Hwy 4 between the 401 and Elgin County Road 18 dropped from 14,200 in 2007 to 11,000 in 2012, with most of the drop happening after 2010. (AADT has gone back up since then, but not back to 2007 levels; that increase may be due to greater tourist traffic as SADT has increased steadily over the past decade.)

I would say Ford much more than Sterling, simply because of where it was. Sterling provided a lot of traffic to Highbury with really only anything going or coming from the west would take highway 4 (unless they didn't know any better and went to Highbury) to go there.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Isn't this what the cable barriers + complete reconstruction of the roadbed did? Yes ultimately a concrete wall is safer the upgrades done should be sufficient for a good period of time.

The last major unsafe part of the Tilbury-London stretch is a section that actually has a concrete barrier! It's the Highway 4/401 cloverleaf. I use this junction only a few times a year but it's scary as hell to use the loop ramps to get on or off the 401. They are way too tight and you can't get anywhere near highway speed merging on. To exit, you need to start braking in the mainline lanes and pray that there isn't someone merging in.

Location:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.85369.../data=!3m1!1e3

This 2004 report recommends rebuilding this interchange and it still hasn't happened. The report also recommends adding an additional lane between Highway 4 and Wellington Road. In 2008 an extra lane was added between Wellington and the 402 but that's all (but where it was most needed).

There's also a few other interchanges along the Tilbury to London stretch that could be upgraded, but start with reconstructing one of Ontario's last 2 cloverleafs.

Where is the other cloverleaf located? Is there still one left on Hwy 400?

Quebec still has quite a few cloverleafs along its Autoroutes. I was recently North of Montreal along Autoroute 15 and was surprised.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Where is the other cloverleaf located? Is there still one left on Hwy 400?

Quebec still has quite a few cloverleafs along its Autoroutes. I was recently North of Montreal along Autoroute 15 and was surprised.

I think this in Belleville qualifies, even though the loops are more oblong instead of round which gives some more merge lane distance to deal with.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.19164.../data=!3m1!1e3

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Where is the other cloverleaf located? Is there still one left on Hwy 400?

Quebec still has quite a few cloverleafs along its Autoroutes. I was recently North of Montreal along Autoroute 15 and was surprised.

It’s even worse that A13 and A19 extensions will be using those.

[Dengler Avenue]

Southwestern Ontario Transportation program also mentions replacing 401’s bridges over Grand River.

Darn it. While MTO’s at it, can it also widen 401 between Highway 8 and Conestoga College (Exit 275) and add the missing ramps to and from Highway 8?!?!

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Southwestern Ontario Transportation program also mentions replacing 401’s bridges over Grand River.

Darn it. While MTO’s at it, can it also widen 401 between Highway 8 and Conestoga College (Exit 275) and add the missing ramps to and from Highway 8?!?!

The replacement of the Grand River bridges was included in previous five years plans as well. (I think it might be set to start this year -- but I'm not 100% certain on that).

I've written this here before (I think a few times), but the replacement of the Grand River bridges is kind of a necessary pre-cursor to finishing the ramps to Highway 8. They'll need to widen the westbound structure to the north to accomodate traffic staging to replace the existing bridges, and that extended structure will eventually become the speed-change lane(s) from the new ramp from Highway 8 East to the westbound 401.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The replacement of the Grand River bridges was included in previous five years plans as well. (I think it might be set to start this year -- but I'm not 100% certain on that).

I've written this here before (I think a few times), but the replacement of the Grand River bridges is kind of a necessary pre-cursor to finishing the ramps to Highway 8. They'll need to widen the westbound structure to the north to accomodate traffic staging to replace the existing bridges, and that extended structure will eventually become the speed-change lane(s) from the new ramp from Highway 8 West to the eastbound 401.

You mean to the 401 westbound don't you?

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

You mean to the 401 westbound don't you?

yeah. typo, sorry. I fixed my original post.

[Dengler Avenue]

Maybe you have talked about it before, but I didn’t put 2 and 2 together. Fair enough, I figured that the ramps from Highway 8 (Cambridge bound) and from King Street couldn’t all be merged before the river.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Maybe you have talked about it before, but I didn’t put 2 and 2 together. Fair enough, I figured that the ramps from Highway 8 (Cambridge bound) and from King Street couldn’t all be merged before the river.

The speed-change (acceleration) lane from ramp from King Street to the westbound 401 is already substandard in length. If an additional ramp were to be constructed from eastbound Highway 8 to the westbound 401, the speed change lane would need to cross the river to be of an adequate length.

When they replace the Grand River bridge, I'd assume they will first widen the westbound bridge to the north to divert westbound traffic onto the newly extended bridge. Once westbound traffic has been diverted onto the extended bridge, they can replace the existing westbound bridge. Once the existing westbound bridge has been replaced, they can move eastbound traffic to the replaced westbound bridge in order to replace the eastbound bridge. Once both the existing eastbound and westbound bridges have been replaced, traffic can be shifted of of the extended westbound bridge. The extended westbound bridge can then be used as speed change lanes from the ramp from Highway 8.

Sorry, that's a bit convoluted, it'd be easier to draw it out, but I don't have the time right now.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The speed-change (acceleration) lane from ramp from King Street to the westbound 401 is already substandard in length. If an additional ramp were to be constructed from eastbound Highway 8 to the westbound 401, the speed change lane would need to cross the river to be of an adequate length.

When they replace the Grand River bridge, I'd assume they will first widen the westbound bridge to the north to divert westbound traffic onto the newly extended bridge. Once westbound traffic has been diverted onto the extended bridge, they can replace the existing westbound bridge. Once the existing westbound bridge has been replaced, they can move eastbound traffic to the replaced westbound bridge in order to replace the eastbound bridge. Once both the existing eastbound and westbound bridges have been replaced, traffic can be shifted of of the extended westbound bridge. The extended westbound bridge can then be used as speed change lanes from the ramp from Highway 8.

Sorry, that's a bit convoluted, it'd be easier to draw it out, but I don't have the time right now.

I can actually follow. I assume same thing for 401 Toronto-Bound to 8 Kitchener-Bound? Except it’ll be a bit more complicated because it’s a flyover.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think this in Belleville qualifies, even though the loops are more oblong instead of round which gives some more merge lane distance to deal with.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.19164.../data=!3m1!1e3

Yep, Hwy 62 @ 401 is the other one on a provincial highway. Technically there is a third but it's municipal - DVP @ Lawrence in Toronto. There are a couple others that come close, but they're each missing one loop ramp to make them true cloverleafs. Hwy 27 & Dixon is one; another is DVP @ Don Mills.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I can actually follow. I assume same thing for 401 Toronto-Bound to 8 Kitchener-Bound? Except it’ll be a bit more complicated because it’s a flyover.

The ramp from the eastbound 401 to Highway 8 West will have its own Grand River Bridge on a unique alignment that is not connected to the existing 401 bridge.

It will be rally impressive if and when it ever gets built.

[haljackey]

Website for the 401 Grand River Bridge project:

https://hwy401grandriverbridges.ca/

The 2009 plan
https://hwy401grandriverbridges.ca/w...t-Exhibits.pdf