What to do with the University Endowment Lands

[chowhou]

Always ask yourself whether if you're being an environmentalist (protect the future) or if you're being a conservative (protect the past) in these conversations about greenspace and development.

What purpose does Pacific Spirit Park serve between Chancellor Boulevard and 16th? Is it a well used municipal park? Is it an important biological reserve? Is it contributing to the well being of the local residents or the broader city in its current form?

I'd argue it isn't really doing anything well right now. The region has more than enough forested parkspace for the local residents, it's not a particularly important ecological area, and as other posters have said it will have an expensive transit extension pass through it without much value provided to or by the area. It's a foregone conclusion that the Musqueam Development Corp is going to have shovels in the ground of the golf course by the end of the century, so I don't see why you wouldn't have development in the area with an associated Skytrain station by then.

It doesn't have to be residential development; As a previous poster said, Central Park in Metrotown is the exact same but instead of being a wall of forest it's an urban trail, it's a baseball diamond, it's a lawn bowling club, it's a stadium, it's a playground, it's general purpose lawn space. It has life.

[GenWhy?]

With a subway nearby it would be more accessible than Stanley Park.

[Migrant_Coconut]

An artificial lake here or a zoo there definitely wouldn't hurt (still somewhat natural), nor would some development like a stadium or rec centre on the outskirts. We all agree the golf course will be history.

My beef is with the "rezone everything for residential" line of argument. Pacific Spirit is one of Vancouver's last parcels of forest - replace it with housing, and you permanently evict a large amount of biodiversity for the sake of a few thousand residents who could easily go into Point Grey or Southlands instead, if not for the NIMBYs. If we're going to play habitat fragmentation, it's got to be for public amenities that benefit the entire metro.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

An artificial lake here or a zoo there definitely wouldn't hurt (still somewhat natural), nor would some development like a stadium or rec centre on the outskirts. We all agree the golf course will be history.

My beef is with the "rezone everything for residential" line of argument. Pacific Spirit is one of Vancouver's last parcels of forest - replace it with housing, and you permanently evict a large amount of biodiversity for the sake of a few thousand residents who could easily go into Point Grey or Southlands instead, if not for the NIMBYs. If we're going to play habitat fragmentation, it's got to be for public amenities that benefit the entire metro.

Vancouver needs parkspace, I don't think anyone would argue that, but why exactly does Vancouver need forest?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Vancouver doesn’t need that much forest per se, but the trees, birds and other plants and animals that Vancouver likes to keep around? Pretty much a requirement for them.

Obviously we’re not attracting bears or deer to Pacific Spirit, nor should we. Stanley Park and Langara would be a good yardstick for balancing the UEL’s urban and natural forms.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

So I've gotten into the report a bit and found the biggest Red Flag I can think of coming up pre and or post becoming an independent municipality.

_______Pop. (%) Age Income Own / Rent
Area A 490 15% 31.9 97,000 $ 65% / 35%
Area B 390 12% 38.6 157,000 $ 82% / 18%
Area C 340 11% 41.6 128,000 $ 74% / 26%
Area D 1,950 62% 26.5 39,000 $ 35% / 65%
TOTAL 3,170 100% 28.8 52,000 $ 46% / 54%

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

"For the 411 single family properties in UEL, the average assessed value in 2021 was $5.46 million"

Making the UEL an independent municipality or annexing it to Vancouver is unlikely without the support of the University itself, who has opposed annexation of its directly-controlled lands into Vancouver (and de-facto provides many of the municipal services for the area).

So you'd probably have to include UBC itself into the discussions- which means giving them special rights, but also a massive revenue source, and the potential of redeveloping the UEL blocks, which are currently basically just homes for rich people (other than Block F, which is a whole other can of worms and composes most of Area D.)

I think merging the UEL and UBC into its own special municipality is probably the best choice if we want to see any development on the UEL itself outside of developing on Pacific Spirit Park.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why would you want further balkanization of Metro Vancouver. We don't need any more pint size municipalities, if anything we should be amalgamating them!

Because amalgamation statistically doesn't actually provide any efficiencies?

White Rock has a high tax rate, but that's more to do with a lack of any real revenue sources other than the aging residents, not because small municipalities don't inherently work.

Also, geography and people too- it'd make about as much sense to merge Belcarra and Anmore into Port Moody.

Also, East Vancouver and CoV would probably be less NIMBY after you kick out Point Grey and Shaughnessy from Vancouver.

Originally Posted by logan5

There’s going to be a multi billion dollar subway running right through the middle of that area.

Originally Posted by madog222

Calling Pacific Spirit greenfield implies it can be developed, it can't be, it's protected conservation & recreation park land.

The golf course on the other hand can be developed, just not for the next 60 years.

Kind of?
Pac Spirit is a strange park, as it's de facto been cut down over the years, notably for Block F and schools.

I guess that's technically possible outside the UEL, but Burnaby tried that with the useless Burnaby Foreshore Park for a new ecowaste facility, and the backlash was so strong, they backed off.

I'm 99.9% sure none of the people protesting that had ever been to Burnaby Foreshore Park.
They just disliked the idea of Burnaby removing any parkland.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Always ask yourself whether if you're being an environmentalist (protect the future) or if you're being a conservative (protect the past) in these conversations about greenspace and development.

What purpose does Pacific Spirit Park serve between Chancellor Boulevard and 16th? Is it a well used municipal park? Is it an important biological reserve? Is it contributing to the well being of the local residents or the broader city in its current form?

I'd argue it isn't really doing anything well right now. The region has more than enough forested parkspace for the local residents, it's not a particularly important ecological area, and as other posters have said it will have an expensive transit extension pass through it without much value provided to or by the area. It's a foregone conclusion that the Musqueam Development Corp is going to have shovels in the ground of the golf course by the end of the century, so I don't see why you wouldn't have development in the area with an associated Skytrain station by then.

It doesn't have to be residential development; As a previous poster said, Central Park in Metrotown is the exact same but instead of being a wall of forest it's an urban trail, it's a baseball diamond, it's a lawn bowling club, it's a stadium, it's a playground, it's general purpose lawn space. It has life.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Vancouver doesn’t need that much forest per se, but the trees, birds and other plants and animals that Vancouver likes to keep around? Pretty much a requirement for them.

Obviously we’re not attracting bears or deer to Pacific Spirit, nor should we. Stanley Park and Langara would be a good yardstick for balancing the UEL’s urban and natural forms.

I... kind of think we are?

Pac Spirit is not a 'developed' urban park like Stanley or QE.
It's mostly just been left to its natural state.
Part of the problem is the lack of people nearby, and the massive size of the UBC campus, who usually have closer options for parks.
Same thing with Point Grey residents.

UBC could move its sports and agricultural facilities to Pac Spirit, and then develop the vacated lands.
This is at least double the size of the Jericho Lands, depending on how you measure them.

I'm not sure this would be politically acceptable, though.

There's a lot of underutilized parklands in Metro Vancouver (Pinecone Burke, Indian Arm, and Malcom Knapp (not a park, but still) are probably good examples, as well as the southernmost parcels of Golden Ears and the northernmost parts of Kanaka.)


The vast majority of Pac Spirit is actually pretty far away from transit options, which is another thing to keep in mind, though.

Converting the golf course into condos also splits off any animals from the North parcel of the park from the south parcel, making whatever use it had for the environment worse than if you just cut into the park from the sides.
So the 1 section close to transit is also the most ecologically important one, and the one we want to save the most.

If we develop it, we're kind of conceding that Pac Spirit should be an urban park with little ecological importance.
As an urban park, it's probably way too big to be completely useful.

It's about double the size of Stanley Park.
No way we can keep an urban park of that size lively, even with UBC nearby.


So overall, I don't think we should get rid of Pac Spirit.
But it has problems with any of its competing visions.
So I really don't know...


Maybe that's the same line of thinking on the minds of the Metro Vancouver Park Board, which is why the Park is in a weird limbo state.

[Migrant_Coconut]

In fairness, Chancellor, University and 16th are already splitting the forest into four pieces, and Lelem and U-Hill/Norma Rose have only made that worse, so it's really more about preventing any further damage.

I'd suggest the golf course west of the clubhouse be rewilded and/or converted to park space (maybe with a large pond?) and coupled with a wildlife crossing across University; everything east of it can easily be developed, but I wouldn't go nuts because the catchment radius of a Blanca Station is only 800m.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Kind of?
Pac Spirit is a strange park, as it's de facto been cut down over the years, notably for Block F and schools.

I guess that's technically possible outside the UEL, but Burnaby tried that with the useless Burnaby Foreshore Park for a new ecowaste facility, and the backlash was so strong, they backed off.

I'm 99.9% sure none of the people protesting that had ever been to Burnaby Foreshore Park.
They just disliked the idea of Burnaby removing any parkland.

The site of Burnaby's proposed green waste facility is not within Burnaby Foreshore Park but adjacent to it, the general public just sees it as part of the park. That land is designated as general urban by Metro Vancouver, it's truly greenfield.

The UEL church and school sites that are surrounded by the park were not taken from the park, that land was never part of the park when it was created. Block F is a different storey as it was part of a reconciliation agreement with the Musqueam.

[Changing City]

The University Golf Club is owned by the Musqueam First Nation. They received it in 2008, along with the 20 hectares of land in Pacific Spirit Park where they've developed leləm̓ Village, and a public park. The agreement requires the band to keep the golf course in place until 2083.

The deal came after the B.C. Court of Appeal ruled in 2005 that the province failed to adequately consult with the Musqueam when the government approved the 2003 sale of the University Golf Club course's land to UBC, who were repaid $30m when the sale to them was reversed.

Stanley Park and Pacific Spirit Park are very similar. Both were extensively logged starting before the turn of the 20th century, up to the 1930s, and while there are vestiges of old growth forest in both, most of the trees are second growth (or more recent where storm damage has felled parts of the second growth forest).


[Vancouverbigtrees]

[jollyburger]

They said the area close to the water is probably the only sections that were never logged.



https://vancouversbigtrees.com/ubcs-...and-big-trees/

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by logan5

The whole are between Chancellor and 16th should be developed into high density housing. Way too much forest and golf courses for too few people. Even Pacific Spirit park is way too big for the number of people it serves.

Why does everything need to become 450sqft high-density shoeboxes? How many million people is enough for Metro Vancouver or for Canada? Will something be better if Vancouver will be 5+ million people?

With 8 billion people in the world, we are never gonna build our way into affordability, but we will build our way into endless congestion and lack of amenities.

To the original question: keep UEL as-is / independent.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

In fairness, Chancellor, University and 16th are already splitting the forest into four pieces, and Lelem and U-Hill/Norma Rose have only made that worse, so it's really more about preventing any further damage.

I'd suggest the golf course west of the clubhouse be rewilded and/or converted to park space (maybe with a large pond?) and coupled with a wildlife crossing across University; everything east of it can easily be developed, but I wouldn't go nuts because the catchment radius of a Blanca Station is only 800m.

Yeah, I'd agree.

The roads are still a problem.
On the long-run, you could cut-and-cover the roads.

Once the golf course is developed, it's not becoming greenspace again- ever.

Originally Posted by Changing City

The University Golf Club is owned by the Musqueam First Nation. They received it in 2008, along with the 20 hectares of land in Pacific Spirit Park where they've developed leləm̓ Village, and a public park. The agreement requires the band to keep the golf course in place until 2083.

The deal came after the B.C. Court of Appeal ruled in 2005 that the province failed to adequately consult with the Musqueam when the government approved the 2003 sale of the University Golf Club course's land to UBC, who were repaid $30m when the sale to them was reversed.

Stanley Park and Pacific Spirit Park are very similar. Both were extensively logged starting before the turn of the 20th century, up to the 1930s, and while there are vestiges of old growth forest in both, most of the trees are second growth (or more recent where storm damage has felled parts of the second growth forest).


[Vancouverbigtrees]

True, but one has nicer geography, is half the size, and is closer to the City.

I don't think anyone's considering demolishing the part of the park that contains Point Grey's cliffs.
They're talking about the forests in the interior, most of which are only really special because they contain natural creeks in Vancouver.
(Which, TBF, is important.
Still Creek has difficulty keeping salmon for a reason.)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...lmon-1.5380465


I guess moving the UBC sports facilities to the park is probably the best compromise for now.
That makes Pac Spirit more of an 'urban park' while still creating a lot of development land and space for the wildlife.

Originally Posted by madog222

The site of Burnaby's proposed green waste facility is not within Burnaby Foreshore Park but adjacent to it, the general public just sees it as part of the park. That land is designated as general urban by Metro Vancouver, it's truly greenfield.

The UEL church and school sites that are surrounded by the park were not taken from the park, that land was never part of the park when it was created in 1989. Block F is a different storey as it was part of a reconciliation agreement with the Musqueam.

Technically? Yes, you are correct. Kind of.

Metro Vancouver didn't consider it a park, and I'm pretty sure Burnaby de-established it as a park.

But 'parkland' ended up in the headlines because it was park in the 1990s and Google Maps says it's a park still (who is always, of course, 100% correct. )

It often doesn't matter what the administrative boundaries and papers say in the end if everyone thinks it's a park.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by madog222

Pacific Spirit is currently a Metro Vancouver regional park, it should be able to remain that way regardless of what happens.

Exactly. And that's the overarching principle that is foremost in, as you say, "regardless of what happens."

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I guess that's technically possible outside the UEL, but Burnaby tried that with the useless Burnaby Foreshore Park for a new ecowaste facility, and the backlash was so strong, they backed off.

I'm 99.9% sure none of the people protesting that had ever been to Burnaby Foreshore Park.
They just disliked the idea of Burnaby removing any parkland.

Man, that whole debacle was such a joke. The Foreshore Park next to the river is GREAT and often busy, but the bushy forest to the east, where they were planning to build it, is desolate with no special value to it. People made it sound like it is some holy bird sanctuary, but there is nothing special about it vs. any other tiny forest in the Metro. They were also going to remove only a tiny bit of it.

Now the facility will get built somewhere near residential, guaranteed.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Vancouver needs parkspace, I don't think anyone would argue that, but why exactly does Vancouver need forest?

There’s that little thing called climate change and carbon absorption. Unless of course you don’t believe in that.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Man, that whole debacle was such a joke. The Foreshore Park next to the river is GREAT and often busy, but the bushy forest to the east, where they were planning to build it, is desolate with no special value to it. People made it sound like it is some holy bird sanctuary, but there is nothing special about it vs. any other tiny forest in the Metro. They were also going to remove only a tiny bit of it.

Now the facility will get built somewhere near residential, guaranteed.

Pretty sure Burnaby doesn't have any vacant industrial land left.

They'd have to get ALR approval to remove some of the agricultural lands in Big Bend, or get rid of the Riverview Golf course.

[madog222]

Continuing in the Burnaby thread.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by whatnext

There’s that little thing called climate change and carbon absorption. Unless of course you don’t believe in that.

Exactly, so promoting transit oriented development adjacent to the urban core and near significant employment centres is superior to continued car dependent sprawl up Burke Mountain.

I understand you're a conservative, but change is okay.

[FarmerHaight]

I always thought the trails in the park were pretty well used

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Exactly, so promoting transit oriented development adjacent to the urban core and near significant employment centres is superior to continued car dependent sprawl up Burke Mountain.

I understand you're a conservative, but change is okay.

The Burke Mountain sprawl is such a disaster on so many levels, the province got ripped off financially and ecologically by it, not to mention the needless urban sprawl so far from the core contributing to more vehicle dependent traffic.