CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[kbud]

Originally Posted by ih8spires

Don't forget, cargo flights are aircraft movements that do not add to passenger totals. That is why I think movements are the most important number.

I am curious how you think aircraft movements is more important to driving economic growth in a city? I would like to understand. Everything I have read over the last ten years has talked about how the number of people drives much more economic impact to a city than aircraft movement with how the passengers spend money and how they bring intellectual property to local companies that helps them grow to lead to job stimulation. It is a tricky data point as some passengers are only in transit.

Passenger data does show that since 1994, ORD (+11%) has not grown compared to the rivals of LAX (+47%), DFW (+55%), ATL (+93%), DEN (+135%), and IAH (+105%).

[ih8spires]

Well, during the first part of my career, I used to take a taxiway on the left side of the runway after landing. Now I take a right. There is a lot going on (economically) on the north and south sides of O'Hare.

[kbud]

Originally Posted by ih8spires

Well, during the first part of my career, I used to take a taxiway on the left side of the runway after landing. Now I take a right. There is a lot going on (economically) on the north and south sides of O'Hare.

I am talking about economic growth for all of Chicagoland not only the airport.

[Kngkyle]

Gates are most definitely not a limiting factor to passenger growth, not right now at least. Sure, United can't have 600 flights all depart at 9AM but they there is gate availability throughout the day for them to add multiple additional departure banks. Suggesting that ORD would have millions more passengers if only there were more gates is just not accurate.

That being said the city should absolutely be planning for a future where more gates are needed and insist on a committed timeline for S-2, even if the ordering is changed up a bit.

[kbud]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

Gates are most definitely not a limiting factor to passenger growth, not right now at least. Sure, United can't have 600 flights all depart at 9AM but they there is gate availability throughout the day for them to add multiple additional departure banks. Suggesting that ORD would have millions more passengers if only there were more gates is just not accurate.

That being said the city should absolutely be planning for a future where more gates are needed and insist on a committed timeline for S-2, even if the ordering is changed up a bit.

There are two main ways for ORD to grow now without more gates.
1) American could certainly add a bank and possibly even United.
2) The airlines could replace smaller regional jets with mainline.

But ORD does lack wide body gates which limit's int'l growth to ORD and potentially some domestic growth if they would deploy more wide bodies on trunk domestic routes. United has talked publicly that ORD lacks wide body gates at T1, and between 2 and 8pm at T5. Sadly only a 767 can fit between the B and C concourses. This limitation is exactly how ORD doesn't plan for the future.

American did cite this a few years back for T3 as well, but we know this is not a constraint now with having both Aer Lingus and British Airways move to T3. The customs and inspection facilities are also a limiting factor for international growth as everything is in T5.

One of my points is that the city needs O'Hare to grow its passenger numbers as that directly leads to growth in the city. 11% growth at ORD since 1994 is actually a decline in the market. Since 1994 passenger enplanements in the entire US have increased by 75%.

O'hare actually did a really good job in constructing the new runway configuration, but the terminal size and infrastructure are in poor shape. Hopefully the new T2 can get started asap with as minimal cuts as possible.

[ardecila]

The whole T2 Global Terminal idea is premised on increasing capacity for larger international jets and creating a new set of customs facilities in that location, in addition to those in T5.

The constraints you listed are *exactly* the ones that will be fixed with the city's new proposed sequence. The satellite #2 would mostly benefit domestic flights.

[twister244]

There was a news conference at T3 today to kick off the T3 upgrade that should start in earnest the next month or two.

The real news though is there was a tone of optimism regarding the overall TAP expansion plans.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...gates-promised

“There’s been an effort to increase the conversation between all the parties involved. I think we have a proposal that will reach our goal of 25% increased capacity.”

Duckworth said U.S. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has offered federal support for the project, although she insisted the expansion is back on budget.

My hope is we get an announcement sooner than later on the finalized agreement between all parties so this work can finally kick off.

[nomarandlee]

Images inside Twitter

https://twitter.com/fly2ohare/status...79761547345947

https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/dept...ohare-bil.html


April 22, 2024
Mayor Johnson Joins Sen. Durbin, Sen. Duckworth, Rep. Garcia, FAA to Break Ground on $300 Million Terminal 3 Development at O’Hare International Airport

ElevateT3, Financed by $90 Million from President Biden’s Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, Will Upgrade Security Screening, Baggage Claim, and Gate Hold Space in Terminal 3

The reconfiguration of two Transportation Security Administration (TSA) checkpoints into a single screening area, providing space for modern and more efficient equipment

An expanded passenger corridor between Concourse K and Concourse L, tripling the current corridor’s width.

The expansion of the holdroom space at Gates K1 and L2A, dramatically improving the passenger experience

A reconfigured baggage claim area and other upgrades to the terminal's baggage facilities and systems that provide sortation for departing passenger baggage

The development of approximately 10,000 square feet of new concessions and amenity spaces

Renovated restrooms and a new family restroom

Other renovations of the terminal’s interior and exterior structures and systems, which will improve overall energy efficiency

[twister244]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/...-ohare-budget/

Friday, United and American issued statements supporting the plan. United said the city’s aviation department would move forward with construction on the first satellite concourse, while planning a phased construction of the Global Terminal. If enough money is left over, the aviation department would move forward with construction on the second satellite concourse and the tunnel connecting the two concourses, United said.

The big question now is will OGT be VE'd to allow for enough funds to fund the tunnel + S2, or do we get the original spec'd OGT......

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by twister244

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/...-ohare-budget/



The big question now is will OGT be VE'd to allow for enough funds to fund the tunnel + S2, or do we get the original spec'd OGT......

Yep. I wonder when we will see renders of the revamped T2. Or eve if we will?

In a sense I am excited to see the T2 being worked on first. Trying to timeline out the prospect of a T2 being done around 2030 or later felt so far away.

Now depending on how fast the timetable is maybe T2 could be open as soon as the end of 2028?

[twister244]

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

Yep. I wonder when we will see renders of the revamped T2. Or eve if we will?

In a sense I am excited to see the T2 being worked on first. Trying to timeline out the prospect of a T2 being done around 2030 or later felt so far away.

Now depending on how fast the timetable is maybe T2 could be open as soon as the end of 2028?

I think you will see work start on S1 immediately, and they will slowly tear down T2 and rebuild it. I would suspect they are going to do that so they can manage gate access during construction through a phased approach since they aren't doing S1 + S2 first.

[twister244]

No updated renderings.... But an updated timetable on construction. I am really curious why this won't get started until next year? The temporary gates at the end of C are basically done..... So much utility work has been done, and it can't take that long to fill in the detention basin in the central part of the airfield. The only real reason I can think of is the process the city has to go through to actually get the money out the door.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...egin-next-year

The Department of Aviation says it will be working this summer to award contracts for excavation and foundation work for the first satellite concourse, but major construction won’t start until the middle of next year. The city expects to sell bonds in the third quarter of this year to fund the next phase of construction, but the amount has not been finalized.

[Kngkyle]

It's a fucking disgrace that the city is using the pandemic as an excuse for the delays when other airports did the opposite and used the reduced operations to speed up construction and reduce costs.

We slow-rolled the project and now the costs are ballooning, the airlines are balking, and we're going to end up with a watered down design and potentially no second satellite or a super delayed one at a minimum (maybe 2040?). Financing and construction costs will have doubled before this thing even gets started compared to what it could have been.

I realize hindsight is 20/20 but once again our city government shit the bed on a golden opportunity.

[jonesrmj]

Finally got some new renderings for the first Satellite:

The city of Chicago is offering a glimpse of the first new concourse that will be built as part of the long-awaited terminal overhaul at O’Hare International Airport.
New renderings reveal a three-story passenger facility that will soar 67 feet, featuring a wide-open, light-filled space to accommodate international and domestic travelers. It will take three years to build the satellite concourse off Terminal 1, which is home to United and its partner airlines. When finished, it will provide room to park up to 19 aircraft.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...icle1-readmore

[k1052]

Is that bus setup for a T5 connection? Should probably have a bit more weather protection given the climate...

[twister244]

Extremely happy with this design. It's not anything crazy, but it's very sexy. Love the emphasis on wide windows with lighting and the nod to the wooden aesthetic we are seeing in the OGT (assuming same design). Also, I find this design much more appealing than the T5 expansion. Having walked down to check out the T5 expansion, while bright, large, and clean - It often feels sterile. This feels much much warmer and a portion of the airport I would want to go lounge at.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by twister244

Extremely happy with this design. It's not anything crazy, but it's very sexy. Love the emphasis on wide windows with lighting and the nod to the wooden aesthetic we are seeing in the OGT (assuming same design). Also, I find this design much more appealing than the T5 expansion. Having walked down to check out the T5 expansion, while bright, large, and clean - It often feels sterile. This feels much much warmer and a portion of the airport I would want to go lounge at.

      It looks plenty nice. Noting artistic or signature looking about it, nor one that will win any awards, but light, airy, and functional.
 
       While I slightly agree with you about the T5 extension, I think it will look much better when it has some vendors and concessions put in. I love the look of the new T5 extension, even if the all white/blue glass looks a bit retread of a Chinese Airport or Train station.

Originally Posted by k1052

Is that bus setup for a T5 connection? Should probably have a bit more weather protection given the climate...

         Immediately what I was thinking. I am guessing (more hoping) it will only serve as an interim solution until the airside transit train is built. Given unforgiving Chicago weather I hope they have enclosures that practically meet the bus doors. It is one thing to have to walk the tarmac on a sunny Carribean or Spanish island, it is a whole other experience to deal with Chicago cold and winds in mid-January, even if just for 10-20 seconds.

[sentinel]

I really like that design!

I suspect the updated T2 design will have similarities, to be more consistent throughout the airport..the question is, did the updated T2 inform the satellites, or vice-versa?
Seeing those large ocular skylites in the renderings above, they look somewhat similar to the updated roof plan and building sections I saw for T2, perhaps the big terminal did influence the satellite designs…and conversely, we may be getting a taste of what the Global Hub will look like based on these images.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by sentinel

I really like that design!

I suspect the updated T2 design will have similarities, to be more consistent throughout the airport..the question is, did the updated T2 inform the satellites, or vice-versa?
Seeing those large ocular skylites in the renderings above, they look somewhat similar to the updated roof plan and building sections I saw for T2, perhaps the big terminal did influence the satellite designs…and conversely, we may be getting a taste of what the Global Hub will look like based on these images.

If I had to guess, I would suspect the OGT design has influenced the S1 design..... If I recall, the original renderings we saw of satellites was based on a uniform SOM design during the competition. Looks like they went back and made adjustments to bring the S1 design closer to the OGT design......

[ardecila]

I really like it. That curved end elevation on the north especially feels very Nordic to me, like something Aalto or Saarinen would do. The interior with the big barrel vault reminds me of the old Willow Run airport outside Detroit.

I also appreciate all the wood tones, I've seen that in some mid-budget airports like MCI and MSY but big-city terminals at LGA, SFO etc are very sleek and cold-feeling. Given Chicago's gloomy weather I think a little bit of "hygge" in the airport goes a long way. Hell, they should even put in some fireplaces and oversized armchairs!

I don't love how the sterile corridor is glassed-in, though. Similar corridors I've seen in Madrid and Vancouver are open-air, it makes the terminal feel a lot more spacious. Is there really such a huge security risk to an open-air corridor?

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

Immediatly what I was thinking. I am guessing (more hoping) it will only serve as an interm solution until the airside transit train is built. Given unforgiving Chicago weather I hope they have enclosures that practically meet the bus doors. It is one thing to have to walk the tarmic on a sunny Carribean or Spanih island, it is a whole other experience to deal with Chicago cold and wins in mid-January, even if just for 10-20 seconds.

Yeah, when the satellite opens the only customs facility is still in T5. So they will use the sterile corridor and the bus system to shuttle international arrivals over to T5 for a few years, until the new T2 is built.

I could be wrong but I don't think the train will be sterile though. They might need to build a sterile corridor in the tunnel alongside the train, with moving walkways. Or they just keep using buses, but going to T2 instead of T5.