Great Lakes Cities

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

Cleveland is clearly the bigger city though, has some legacy institutions like a renowned symphony and a top-notch art museum.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Buffalo has a very strong art museum. Not quite Cleveland-level, but not far off. Also a world-renowned symphony hall and some other really impressive legacy institutions.

"Legacy institutions"... why is this term being used to describe Cleveland's and Buffalo's cultural institutions?

What does it mean?

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by pj3000

"Legacy institutions"... why is this term being used to describe Cleveland's and Buffalo's cultural institutions?

What does it mean?

I take it to mean institutions that seem have a cultural footprint far larger than one may expect given the city's size today. Like if you were going to try and objectively assign where one of the five largest orchestras in the U.S. were placed today, Cleveland probably wouldn't be on the list, but it's there as result of the city's legacy as an industrial powerhouse back when those types of endeavours were often the result of capitalist philanthropy.

[Docere]

College graduates

Buffalo 32.8%
Cleveland 21.7%
Detroit 18.1%

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yeah for a city of 1 million, Buffalo definitely overperforms. Helps that it developed early. It already had 1 million by 1950 (it's barely grown at all) and it was among the 10 largest cities in the US in 1900 I believe.

in 1910, 4 of the 10 largest cities in the US were on the great lakes: chicago, cleveland, detroit, and buffalo.

today, only chicago remains among the 25 largest cities in the nation, though detroit is still #12 by UA and #14 by MSA.

Originally Posted by Docere

College graduates

Buffalo 32.8%
Cleveland 21.7%
Detroit 18.1%

what about milwaukee and chicago?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

what about milwaukee and chicago?

Chicago 43.7%
Milwaukee 27.3%

[Docere]

College graduates

Chicago MSA 40.6%
Milwaukee MSA 39.2%
Buffalo MSA 36.9%
Detroit MSA 34.2%
Cleveland MSA 34.1%

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I take it to mean institutions that seem have a cultural footprint far larger than one may expect given the city's size today. Like if you were going to try and objectively assign where one of the five largest orchestras in the U.S. were placed today, Cleveland probably wouldn't be on the list, but it's there as result of the city's legacy as an industrial powerhouse back when those types of endeavours were often the result of capitalist philanthropy.

Ok, I get it. Just kinda weird. I guess I think about it much differently, in that I expect older cities to have prominent cultural institutions. I would absolutely expect Cleveland to have a more prominent art museum than say, Dallas. Even though Dallas is the much bigger city today... Cleveland was the much bigger city when these types of cultural institutions were founded so it only makes sense.

The legacy part is just odd to me, I guess. Because aren't all cities' institutions the result of some type of "legacy" or another?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

The legacy part is just odd to me, I guess. Because aren't all cities' institutions the result of some type of "legacy" or another?

Yeah, but there are certain cities where the relative stature hasn't fallen much, so the institution feels less like a historical anomaly.

Chicago has probably taken a modest relative decline over the last century, but is still a first tier city by almost any measure, so it isn't shocking it has first tier cultural institutions. Cleveland has taken a much steeper fall so it's a bit surprising to see these really impressive institutions. It shows a certain civic pride and community commitment.

I don't think most people would think that Cleveland has a better art museum than anywhere in LA, SF, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Seattle or Atlanta. It just isn't in that tier of cities anymore. Of course most of the "good art" in the public realm was acquired in the era when Cleveland was peaking.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Ok, I get it. Just kinda weird. I guess I think about it much differently, in that I expect older cities to have prominent cultural institutions. I would absolutely expect Cleveland to have a more prominent art museum than say, Dallas. Even though Dallas is the much bigger city today... Cleveland was the much bigger city when these types of cultural institutions were founded so it only makes sense.

The legacy part is just odd to me, I guess. Because aren't all cities' institutions the result of some type of "legacy" or another?

I guess there's older cities that still maintained the cultural heft that "justifies" an institutional presence like that. It makes less sense to me to refer to the MOMA as a "legacy institution" in New York, because if it didn't exist you could probably justify starting a new art museum of that size in New York today. Like does the institution only exist of because the city's legacy as something different than it is today?

It's all pedantic at the end of the day and doesn't really matter.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

Buffalo seems like a mini-Cleveland (or Cleveland a bigger Buffalo) in a lot of ways. Industrial cities that have a sort of Rodney Dangerfield "get no respect" quality. Latino population is Puerto Rican. Even balance between Italians and Eastern Europeans.

Cleveland is clearly the bigger city though, has some legacy institutions like a renowned symphony and a top-notch art museum.

Also Buffalo has more middle class people in the core, while few professional class people live in the city of Cleveland.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Buffalo has a very strong art museum. Not quite Cleveland-level, but not far off. Also a world-renowned symphony hall and some other really impressive legacy institutions. For a metro of 1 million, it outperforms.

And yeah, while Cleveland is a much bigger, more important metro, Buffalo has a pretty large corridor of middle/upper class urban or semi-urban living, and Cleveland doesn't. I suspect a relatively high % of Metro Buffalo professionals live in Buffalo proper, while in Cleveland it's nearly 0. Even Detroit should have a higher share, with some affluent areas in NW Detroit that resemble Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights.

Buffalo's Albright Knox is undergoing a ~$195M expansion into the Albright Knox Gundlach museum thanks to Buffalo born/raised bond king Billionaire, Jeffrey Gundlach.
https://buffaloakg.org/building-buff.../about-project

The Buffalo Philharmonic has always been well regarded (and Kleinhans music hall designed by the Saarinens has been called "acoustically perfect"), and Buffalo's theatre scene is vibrant as well.

When the TV show Mad Men was airing, the principle of the firm in the show, Bert Cooper was obsessed with Mark Rothko. In the show he purchased a Rothko and it was controversial in the office.
I told my roommate (in Calgary) at the time "you know, I've actually seen a Rothko in person at the Albright Knox in Buffalo"...

...amongst paintings by Picasso, Monet, van Gogh, Cézanne, Matisse, Gauguin, Frida Kahlo, Jackson Pollock, Warhol, Renoir, Salvador Dalí, Georgia O'Keeffe etc etc.
It's a like a who's who of famous artworks of the past couple hundred years in little old Buffalo, NY overlooking a park (Delaware) built by Olmsted & Vaux. If that's not world class I don't know the meaning of the word.
https://buffaloakg.org/art/collection

The grounds include multiple sculptures including one of the first 'female head' sculptures by renowned Spanish artist, Jaume Plensa
https://jaumeplensa.com/works-and-pr...ace/laura-2012

Not to mention AKG's public art initiative to beautify the city with colorful murals from local and international artists.
• Video Link

Buffalo is unique among rust belt cities in that it's "Millionaire's Row" aka Delaware Ave is largely intact to give visitors a glimpse into it's wealthy past. The amount of wealthy still living in the city limits is very high as well as all the "old money" social clubs (Buffalo Club, Saturn Club, 20th century club, etc) still exist and the city's best private school, Nichols, and the best regional magnet school, City Honors are all within the city limits.
• Video Link


• Video Link

TL;DR it's exciting times for Buffalo once again with an ability to build off legacy institutions like the renamed Albright Knox Gundlach art museum set to reopen at the end of May, 2023

[dc_denizen]

I don't know that we should really care whether or not Clevelands nice areas are in the city . they're certainly adjacent to it and in the core of the urban area

Cleveland's UA though is far poorer and less educated in aggregate, and remains more industrial with a functioning steel mill in city limits . IMO Clevelands core downtown area was just too industrial for the middle class to locate anywhere close to downtown even back in the day.

this is interesting, talking about the impact of 50s-area steel plants built too close to downtown

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/790

In 1937, Cleveland had welcomed Republic Steel as the newest addition to the city's industrial complex. Republic Steel's investment in the community was applauded and considered vital to the city's health. By the late 1950s, however, cities and industries had grown so rapidly that the air pollutants released by the industrial centers hit a critical mass. The overpowering presence of air pollution in urban areas, across the nation, could no longer be ignored. Republic Steel became the focal point of the air pollution war that raged in Cleveland from the late 1950s through the 1970s.

Clevelanders responded to the controversy over Republic Steel's contribution to air pollution in one of two ways. They either said, "What's all the yapping about?" or compellingly described the air pollution as so potent, "'You could actually taste it.'" A community member related, "If I had to choose between air pollution enforcement and [the] loss of industry, I'd say I'll take the air pollution." For some members in the community the answer to the debate was that simple. Steel workers accepted their much-needed paychecks, even though their work resulted in pollution.

[Docere]

Yeah, it seems like reasonably prosperous got out of Cleveland pretty quickly. Certainly no Delaware/Elmwood corridor-type area in city limits.

[dc_denizen]

Toledo on the other hand is one of the weirdest cities in America, with the combination of beautiful 20s architecture and massive parking lots downtown. IMO you could build 30 5-story texas donut complexes on those lots and completely change the character of that city.

and yet its home to massive , thriving Jeep plants.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

College graduates

Buffalo 32.8%
Cleveland 21.7%
Detroit 18.1%

Originally Posted by Docere

College graduates

Chicago MSA 40.6%
Milwaukee MSA 39.2%
Buffalo MSA 36.9%
Detroit MSA 34.2%
Cleveland MSA 34.1%

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

I don't know that we should really care whether or not Clevelands nice areas are in the city . they're certainly adjacent to it and in the core of the urban area

I believe it's important to have both wealthy and educated in the city limits. You need some sort of wealthy base to pay for better public services instead of these tax dollars solely benefitting adjacent suburban towns, and an educated populace is vital to a city's overall health imho

Who wants their city to be primarily poor and less educated?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

I don't know that we should really care whether or not Clevelands nice areas are in the city . they're certainly adjacent to it and in the core of the urban area

Cleveland's UA though is far poorer and less educated in aggregate, and remains more industrial with a functioning steel mill in city limits . IMO Clevelands core downtown area was just too industrial for the middle class to locate anywhere close to downtown even back in the day.

this is interesting, talking about the impact of 50s-area steel plants built too close to downtown

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/790

steel valley aside, actually cleveland was full of middle class until the final deindustrialization 1980s era. i mean lower middle class take your lunch bucket and walk to the work site type neighborhoods everywhere. machine shops, clothing, etc. type warehouse factories. the bones are all still there, or with a little imagination sometimes, among the clearscaping of the old brick apt buildings and homes. what cle didn’t have, after the euclid avenue millionaire mansions era was over, and still doesn’t have, is wealthy neighborhoods.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I believe it's important to have both wealthy and educated in the city limits. You need some sort of wealthy base to pay for better public services instead of these tax dollars solely benefitting adjacent suburban towns, and an educated populace is vital to a city's overall health imho

Who wants their city to be primarily poor and less educated?

I would also add that if the central city hasn't retained wealthy residents then that suggests major flaws in the regional governance structure.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Cleveland's UA though is far poorer and less educated in aggregate, and remains more industrial with a functioning steel mill in city limits . IMO Clevelands core downtown area was just too industrial for the middle class to locate anywhere close to downtown even back in the day.

this is interesting, talking about the impact of 50s-area steel plants built too close to downtown

Conversely, Chicago got a bit lucky in the fact that the heaviest and dirtiest industries like steel making and oil refining began to coalesce down around the Calumet River in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, over 10 miles south of the loop, and then spread eastward into NW Indiana from there.

Not that Chicago was some pristine emerald city or anything back in the day, but at least the bulk of the most foul-smelling and noxious air pollution was located in the extreme SE corner of the city where prevailing winds carried it eastward away from the city.

[suburbanite]

Cleveland is probably a victim of its geography, with the downtown being located right at the convergence of Lake Erie and the Cuyahoga River, and that same river being the lifeblood for the city's industries. Chicago had the Calumet, Detroit had the Rouge also located far enough away from downtown. Even in Buffalo the river meanders south away from downtown leaving all the area to the north as a desirable favoured quarter stretching through Allentown and Elmwood Village.

It is interesting how all of the major American Great Lakes cities are centered around a significant river system that feeds into their respective lake, and provided a way to get goods into industrial areas that were at least slightly inland. On the Canadian side we don't really have any major navigable rivers that feed into Lake Ontario or Lake Erie, so we just stuck most of the heavy industry on the shores of Hamilton, in a completely different metro.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yeah for a city of 1 million, Buffalo definitely overperforms. Helps that it developed early. It already had 1 million by 1950 (it's barely grown at all) and it was among the 10 largest cities in the US in 1900 I believe.

Buffalo was in the top 20 largest cities from 1850-1960. It peaked in 1900 as the 8th largest city in America, which coincided with it hosting the 1901 Pan-Am Exposition and reputedly having more Millionaires per capita than any other US city at the time.

1850 #16
1860 #10
1870 #11
1880 #13
1890 #11
1900 #8
1910 #10
1920 #11
1930 #13
1940 #14
1950 #15
1960 #20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ates_by_decade

[Docere]

Parma and Cheektowaga seem to be "sister suburbs." Blue collar suburbs with a very Slavic flavor.