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  #221  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Montreal's perfect. Clearly no criticism is warranted.

NJB should start making videos comparing other cities to Montreal instead of Amsterdam.
That’s such a weird reaction. I read all the comments and everyone agrees that Montreal has serious flaws and needs improvement that will take decades.
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  #222  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 6:16 PM
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Amsterdam used to be roughly on a Vancouver scale but I think even that is starting to become a little strained. The need for new infrastructure there is going to be quite a bit smaller than what's needed in Montreal or Toronto these days. Toronto probably added more people than the NL last year.
Exactly. Even with the one time influx of Ukrainian refugees, NL's population only grew by 200K in 2022. In 2023, it dropped back down to its historical average of 100K. This was enough to convince Dutch voters to elect Geert Wilders and PPV to stem the flow of immigrants.


https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2023/44/population-up-to-17-9-million


This kind of low growth scenario is not even contemplated in the Canadian context.
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  #223  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chowhou View Post
Respectfully, as you mentioned Hong Kong is a port. On top of that, the area we're talking about, Hong Kong island, is also an island with the bulk majority of economic activity happening at or near the waterfront. If moving freight efficiently around the harbour was so important (which it is), don't you think there's a high capacity form of transportation which might be a bit better than a truck? Even if ships and barges don't get you everywhere you want to go, if Hong Kong had the room to build multi-lane expressways, Hong Kong certainly had the room to build freight rail which would take up a fraction of the space.
Where on Hong Kong island can you find enough land to build a big enough freight yard to properly service commercial freight? How do you handle the last mile problem after the freight arrives at the station? Hong Kong Island is significantly more land restricted and has a much higher population than even North Vancouver. How do you think all the residents, commercial establishments and institutions receive their freight/deliveries? It's definitely not through the tram system or MTR.

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But that's all beside the point, the expressways in Hong Kong are not there to move freight around. Hong Kong isn't the same type of port as Vancouver or Long Beach. It's a logistics hub for APAC not an importing/exporting gateway for China so freight for the most part doesn't leave the port before being shipped off somewhere else. As Canada's primary Pacific gateway port, Vancouver probably has more freight physically moved through the city than Hong Kong does. You will never see a container moved on the expressway, they're by-and-large for personal vehicles.

No one forced Hong Kong to cater so strongly to cars, it was just a political decision.
The bulk of expressway traffic in Hong Kong are taxis, buses and trucks, and is much closer to what Toronto's Highway 401 looks like than BC Highways 1/17/99. Car ownership in Hong Kong is also one of the most expensive in the world, almost up there with Singapore. Along with their exceptional public transit system, most people choose not to drive.
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  #224  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Exactly. Even with the one time influx of Ukrainian refugees, NL's population only grew by 200K in 2022. In 2023, it dropped back down to its historical average of 100K. This was enough to convince Dutch voters to elect Geert Wilders and PPV to stem the flow of immigrants.


https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2023/44/population-up-to-17-9-million


This kind of low growth scenario is not even contemplated in the Canadian context.
It's not high growth that is creating our problems with urbanism. The high growth tends to reveal and exacerbate the problems. It's a stretch to argue they create the problems themselves. High population growth is not the reason we build painted bicycle gutters or insist on the majority of our cities being exclusively zoned for single family housing or the reason our largest cities underinvested in transit for decades. Indeed, the decisions we make are nonsensical in the context of high population growth.
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  #225  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Exactly. Even with the one time influx of Ukrainian refugees, NL's population only grew by 200K in 2022. In 2023, it dropped back down to its historical average of 100K. This was enough to convince Dutch voters to elect Geert Wilders and PPV to stem the flow of immigrants.
Maybe it's just obvious but with higher growth the need for new infrastructure can be radically different even if two cities are about the same size. Toronto more than doubled in size during the peak freeway and suburbia years of 1950-1980 while Amsterdam only grew a bit. Toronto probably needed something like 5x or more as much new infrastructure and would have had to raise more money to spend servicing new areas (sure, you can borrow based on future growth, but this is going to be less stable).

I think the growth and the unpredictability of migration in Canada does make planning more difficult as well. So many plans even from the 2010's look silly in the 2020's. I would argue that there's a philosophical issue with trying to plan too heavily and a practical issue of inefficient and slow implementation, but slower growth would make these problems more manageable. Part of the problem these days is so many Canadian cities are just not set up for the pace of change they're experiencing, going all the way from the mindset of voters and councillors to provinces that didn't plan for the growth and should be tackling it in a qualitatively different way and a federal government that mostly does ad hoc cost sharing. Canada doesn't tend to implement repeatable standardized transit projects for example.
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  #226  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
It's not high growth that is creating our problems with urbanism. The high growth tends to reveal and exacerbate the problems. It's a stretch to argue they create the problems themselves. High population growth is not the reason we build painted bicycle gutters or insist on the majority of our cities being exclusively zoned for single family housing or the reason our largest cities underinvested in transit for decades. Indeed, the decisions we make are nonsensical in the context of high population growth.
No one here is saying Canadian cities don't have significant problems with urbanism. If anything, criticising the deficiencies of Canadian cities is as Canadian as Timbits and maple syrup.

But at the same time, I think most here would agree that perhaps NJB's narrow vision of what good urbanism is (i.e. Dutch urbanism centering on Amsterdam) isn't exactly the mould we'd want Toronto and Montreal to follow to the dot. Yes, perhaps there's many positive attributes of Amsterdam's infrastructure that Toronto/Montreal can look at adopting, but Toronto becoming Amsterdam in urbanism IMO is not nirvana (and I'm sure a lot of forumers here would agree).

I personally believe that Tokyo, Paris and London (as well as Madrid, Barcelona) are much better infrastructure models for Toronto and Montreal to aspire to, given the current context, growth trajectory, population, industrial base and Canada's national aspirations. The infrastructure improvements in Paris/France is especially impressive (and that's before finishing up projects like Grand Paris Express), much more so than what I saw in Amsterdam in the past year. Even the middle upper-class banlieues in Paris I find are much more pleasant to be in than the equivalent in Randstad.
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  #227  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The criticisms are now getting absurd.

Amsterdam small? It's a metro of 2.5 million. And the wider Randstad conurbation is slightly smaller and a bit more populated (8+ million) than the Golden Horseshoe in Ontario. To say these places are small and not very populated or large cities is pretty ridiculous.
I agree that Amsterdam and the entire Randstad is huge so that begs the question, why does he continually compare London to it? The Randstad has more than 20X London's population but somehow he's shocked that London doesn't measure up in the urbanism dept.

One also has to remember that much of the damage to our urban fabric was caused by the boom of the suburbs , freeways, and malls in the 50s, 60s, and to a lesser extent the 70s. Canada's population was soaring but at the same time the Netherlands had a massive outflow of people and hundreds of thousands even went to the God forsaken land of Canada. You won't here him say that. You will also never hear him say that London refused, despite the demands of Queen's Park, to allow an urban freeway to decimate the city's pleasant downtown.

Another thing that you will never hear Slaughter say is the obvious sight of all those Dutch cyclists, having one thing in common.........they are all white. Take a look at the videos and it becomes quite clear that despite the Netherlands having a fairly large non-Caucasian population you won't see any on the the bike paths. Why?.......because "those" people live in the suburban concrete ethnic ghettos that surround every major city in Europe................out of sight, out of mind.

Slaughter has certainly become Dutch because, as my English Mother & Irish Father always said, "You can always tell a Dutchman but you can't tell them much".
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  #228  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 8:38 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Maybe it's just obvious but with higher growth the need for new infrastructure can be radically different even if two cities are about the same size. Toronto more than doubled in size during the peak freeway and suburbia years of 1950-1980 while Amsterdam only grew a bit. Toronto probably needed something like 5x or more as much new infrastructure and would have had to raise more money to spend servicing new areas (sure, you can borrow based on future growth, but this is going to be less stable).

I think the growth and the unpredictability of migration in Canada does make planning more difficult as well. So many plans even from the 2010's look silly in the 2020's. I would argue that there's a philosophical issue with trying to plan too heavily and a practical issue of inefficient and slow implementation, but slower growth would make these problems more manageable. Part of the problem these days is so many Canadian cities are just not set up for the pace of change they're experiencing, going all the way from the mindset of voters and councillors to provinces that didn't plan for the growth and should be tackling it in a qualitatively different way and a federal government that mostly does ad hoc cost sharing. Canada doesn't tend to implement repeatable standardized transit projects for example.
Completely agree, you've read my mind. I think Toronto GO RER could be the test case for a transformative yet standardized transit project that can be rolled out across the country. Like its Australian sisters, most Canadian cities have a legacy rail network coarsing through its veins begging to be transformed into rapid public transit.

Montreal's Exo is clearly the next network that will significantly benefit from the first-mover experience of GO RER. Perhaps they can also bring DeutschBahn or SNCF on board to transform Montreal's banlieue train service.

For Canadian TGV in the Corridor, perhaps we need to replicate the experience of Brightline south of the border.
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  #229  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I think the growth and the unpredictability of migration in Canada does make planning more difficult as well. So many plans even from the 2010's look silly in the 2020's. I would argue that there's a philosophical issue with trying to plan too heavily and a practical issue of inefficient and slow implementation, but slower growth would make these problems more manageable. Part of the problem these days is so many Canadian cities are just not set up for the pace of change they're experiencing, going all the way from the mindset of voters and councillors to provinces that didn't plan for the growth and should be tackling it in a qualitatively different way and a federal government that mostly does ad hoc cost sharing.
I guess one of the silver linings of the Federal government dialing population growth up to 11 is that it has led provincial and municipal governments to make drastic changes to infrastructure investment and zoning reform that they never would have otherwise.

Exclusive SFH zoning almost fell as quickly and unexpectedly as the Berlin wall in many of our major cities the last two years. I honestly didn't expect that to happen for another decade, even with the affordability crisis. Right now, there's not much of an effect for two reasons: one is that population growth is so ridiculous that it doesn't make a dent, and the second is that interest rates are high and labour supply in construction is low, so this hasn't resulted in many projects getting off the ground. But when immigration goes back to normal levels (which I think will happen regardless of who's in charge within a decade) and when interest rates fall, at least we've cleared this regulatory hurdle.

Same with transportation - at least here in the GTA (and to a lesser extent in Vancouver as well). There are a lot of big investments that probably wouldn't have been made if population growth was low. If you look at American cities which are now growing at European levels, they're not making any investments in transportation infrastructure at all, and actually letting their public transit networks rot. It's kind of sad that North American cities either build but not fast enough for growth, or let their infrastructure stagnate or decline if they're not growing quickly. They're always behind where they should be. Given these two scenarios, I'd rather be building something rather than nothing. At least when our growth tapers off we'll have relatively modern transportation infrastructure that meets more of our contemporary needs.

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Canada doesn't tend to implement repeatable standardized transit projects for example.
We have this to some extent, but only intra-provincially. Calgary and Edmonton essentially built the same LRT system at the same time. More recently, a lot of Ontario's LRT procurements were bundled together - not just the Metrolinx ones, but KW's Ion was part of the same order of vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown.

But, yes, in true Canadian fashion, every province has to reinvent the wheel for themselves. This is probably the most glaring in Ottawa, which is the only large city region that straddles a provincial border. If a tramway gets built in Gatineau, it won't be compatible to the O-train and will have to run on the street a block instead of interlining in the existing tunnel a block south. The Trillium Line O-train ends about 1 km south of where Gatineau's Rapibus corridor ends on the other side of the Ottawa river; there's a bridge and ROW that would link these two (since they were part of the same, old rail corridor) but it's a pedestrian bridge with no future transit plans.
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  #230  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Like its Australian sisters, most Canadian cities have a legacy rail network coarsing through its veins begging to be transformed into rapid public transit.
I suspect there is a regulatory aspect that the federal government and Transport Canada could help with here. The current situation where CN and CP monopolize old publicly-built rail lines and are not transparent about scheduling or pricing isn't serving the country well. There should be some standard around transparency and reasonableness when operating de facto monopoly infrastructure with multiple potential uses.

I don't hear about it as much these days and I'm not sure what the status of Canada's rail regulations is. People used to complain that Canada was behind and had regulations requiring heavy passenger rail cars on mixed freight lines, making tram-trains or light rail services on most rail lines impossible. The modern solution isn't to design trains so that they fail slightly less catastrophically when they collide with each other, it's to have 0 collisions.
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  #231  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Exclusive SFH zoning almost fell as quickly and unexpectedly as the Berlin wall in many of our major cities the last two years.
In the Canadian system it's hard to get provinces to coordinate federally but they do what they want to the municipalities. Municipal councils have many members who are supported by niche neighbourhood groups; a few hundred votes can flip some of those outcomes or the candidates just win by acclamation. I don't think this translates well to MLAs/MPs who have larger constituencies and broader responsibilities that the public is politically engaged with.

I think transportation in some cities would be able to change suddenly as well because of this dynamic. You see municipalities hemming and hawing for years about projects that are very easy for provinces to push through if the will is there.
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  #232  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 9:57 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
No one here is saying Canadian cities don't have significant problems with urbanism. If anything, criticising the deficiencies of Canadian cities is as Canadian as Timbits and maple syrup.

But at the same time, I think most here would agree that perhaps NJB's narrow vision of what good urbanism is (i.e. Dutch urbanism centering on Amsterdam) isn't exactly the mould we'd want Toronto and Montreal to follow to the dot. Yes, perhaps there's many positive attributes of Amsterdam's infrastructure that Toronto/Montreal can look at adopting, but Toronto becoming Amsterdam in urbanism IMO is not nirvana (and I'm sure a lot of forumers here would agree).
NJB talks about things like improving walkability, proper design of cycling infrastructure, allowing moderate density everywhere, light rail systems not getting stuck in traffic, etc. These all seem like universal and achievable things to me. What specifically is it about his vision do you think is too narrow and not applicable to Canada?
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  #233  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Another thing that you will never hear Slaughter say is the obvious sight of all those Dutch cyclists, having one thing in common.........they are all white. Take a look at the videos and it becomes quite clear that despite the Netherlands having a fairly large non-Caucasian population you won't see any on the the bike paths. Why?.......because "those" people live in the suburban concrete ethnic ghettos that surround every major city in Europe................out of sight, out of mind.
I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam? Because that absolutely isn't true. Yes, the suburbs are more diverse than the city centre, but the good-quality cycling infrastructure exists even on the fringe of the city. In fact it's probably better because the bike paths are wider and they don't interact with car traffic. And transit is also better in the suburbs than in the centre because you have metro service and more exclusive ROWs for trams and buses, whereas in the centre everything is more congested and there aren't many metro stations.

I've just scanned through my photos of Amsterdam and when I zoom into the crowds, I see plenty of Asian, Black and Middle Eastern people on bikes.

I think maybe the pendulum of discussion here has swung a little too far to one extreme. Amsterdam is not nearly as big as Montreal or Toronto, and NJB does idealize and romanticize it. But it's still part of the Randstad which is a quite a large urban area. And the transport planning for that entire area is excellent, from the macro (good regional rail, good expressways that don't ruin the areas around them) to the micro (excellent urban design). There are important lessons for every urban area in Canada, regardless of size.
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  #234  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Where on Hong Kong island can you find enough land to build a big enough freight yard to properly service commercial freight? How do you handle the last mile problem after the freight arrives at the station? Hong Kong Island is significantly more land restricted and has a much higher population than even North Vancouver. How do you think all the residents, commercial establishments and institutions receive their freight/deliveries? It's definitely not through the tram system or MTR.



The bulk of expressway traffic in Hong Kong are taxis, buses and trucks, and is much closer to what Toronto's Highway 401 looks like than BC Highways 1/17/99. Car ownership in Hong Kong is also one of the most expensive in the world, almost up there with Singapore. Along with their exceptional public transit system, most people choose not to drive.
I don't know where you're assuming the authority to talk about the transportation habits of Hong Kong, and even though I just got back from there I'm not going to throw anecdotes at you, here's just the data:

https://atc.td.gov.hk/harbour

The bulk majority of vehicles most of the day taking the cross harbour tunnels are personal vehicles, dipping slightly below 50% at some times of the day. In fact during the evening 7PM rush hour the proportion of private vehicles hits 70% through the cross harbour tunnels. The 16 hour (7AM to 11PM) daily average is 55% private vehicles, 17.2% light goods vehicles, 14.2% taxis, 6.6% busses, 3.9% motorcycles, and in last place 3.2% medium/heavy goods vehicles.

The truth is that it takes money to own and drive a personal vehicle in Hong Kong, and Hong Kongers have a lot of money. It's a lot more popular (and catered to) than you might think.
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  #235  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2023, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in Amsterdam? Because that absolutely isn't true. Yes, the suburbs are more diverse than the city centre, but the good-quality cycling infrastructure exists even on the fringe of the city. In fact it's probably better because the bike paths are wider and they don't interact with car traffic. And transit is also better in the suburbs than in the centre because you have metro service and more exclusive ROWs for trams and buses, whereas in the centre everything is more congested and there aren't many metro stations.

I've just scanned through my photos of Amsterdam and when I zoom into the crowds, I see plenty of Asian, Black and Middle Eastern people on bikes.

I think maybe the pendulum of discussion here has swung a little too far to one extreme. Amsterdam is not nearly as big as Montreal or Toronto, and NJB does idealize and romanticize it. But it's still part of the Randstad which is a quite a large urban area. And the transport planning for that entire area is excellent, from the macro (good regional rail, good expressways that don't ruin the areas around them) to the micro (excellent urban design). There are important lessons for every urban area in Canada, regardless of size.
Hence my earlier reaction. The "criticisms" in the effort to criticize NJB are getting absolutely absurd.

Amsterdam is not the size of Montreal or Toronto. But I'd argue it's pretty close to the size of Vancouver and the Randstad is about the size of the GTA. To argue these places are too small for us to draw any lessons from is patently absurd.
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  #236  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2024, 5:21 AM
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Completely agree, you've read my mind. I think Toronto GO RER could be the test case for a transformative yet standardized transit project that can be rolled out across the country. Like its Australian sisters, most Canadian cities have a legacy rail network coarsing through its veins begging to be transformed into rapid public transit.

Montreal's Exo is clearly the next network that will significantly benefit from the first-mover experience of GO RER. Perhaps they can also bring DeutschBahn or SNCF on board to transform Montreal's banlieue train service.
I doubt it, if Montreal were serious about upgrading Exo it would not have converted the Deux-Montagnes line to REM instead. The commitments required to build commuter rail are even more onerous than urban rail and the latter is more needed in the Canadian context.

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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
We have this to some extent, but only intra-provincially. Calgary and Edmonton essentially built the same LRT system at the same time. More recently, a lot of Ontario's LRT procurements were bundled together - not just the Metrolinx ones, but KW's Ion was part of the same order of vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown.
The original Skytrain technology also intended as such but never really took off domestically. The lack of standardisation for transit projects in Canada is as much a strength as it is a weakness, it meant that different municipalities were free to build what suited them instead of being forced into a 'one-size-fits-all' template.

Unfortunately, municipalities also cannot afford to build out transit networks on their own. It is telling that all the new-build rail systems at the moment are in Ontario, the most populated and richest Province. Up-and-coming municipalities like Halifax, Winnipeg, and Saskatoon have all opted for BRT instead, a sign that they cannot count on Provincial support, while Quebec City's tramway project is all but dead for the time being.
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  #237  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2024, 5:37 PM
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  #238  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2024, 10:43 PM
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I doubt it, if Montreal were serious about upgrading Exo it would not have converted the Deux-Montagnes line to REM instead. The commitments required to build commuter rail are even more onerous than urban rail and the latter is more needed in the Canadian context.
The sad fact is that Montreal has no control over Exo. It's run by the ARTM which is a creature of the province, and from what I've heard, its management is absolutely bonkers. They've basically given up on rail transit and are more interested in bus service. Exo buses are not bad, and of course buses are importantly, but this approach means that the existing commuter rail is being starved of resources. There was actually a plan to electrify the St-Jérôme line and implement 15-minute all-day service which would have been transformative. Now that's been scrapped (or at least put on ice indefinitely). And forget about any new railways. If Montreal had even the level of service that GO offers it would be a real economic asset.

It all comes down to politics. The CAQ is willing to spend $10 billion on a new bridge or tunnel in Quebec City but god forbid it spends even a dime on public transit anywhere. That's why it's so keen to have the CDPQ take over all these regional rail projects, because it offloads the capital costs of transit, but the Caisse just isn't interested in many of them.
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  #239  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2024, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
The sad fact is that Montreal has no control over Exo. It's run by the ARTM which is a creature of the province, and from what I've heard, its management is absolutely bonkers.
Yes, I was using the service area as shorthand. These sorts of things have to be top-down driven, so I think GO RER is a one-off.
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  #240  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2024, 12:27 AM
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Unfortunately, municipalities also cannot afford to build out transit networks on their own. It is telling that all the new-build rail systems at the moment are in Ontario, the most populated and richest Province. Up-and-coming municipalities like Halifax, Winnipeg, and Saskatoon have all opted for BRT instead, a sign that they cannot count on Provincial support, while Quebec City's tramway project is all but dead for the time being.
There is a very large gap in this type of funding between the larger and smaller provinces. Halifax is often at the bottom of the list for per capita federal and provincial funding and struggles to get provincial funding that can be used to unlock federal dollars. This is a bit counterintuitive to a lot of people because they feel like NS gets subsidized, which it does to some degree (although you need to distinguish between procurement $ spent doing things like buying ships from Irving or military service versus personal transfers, capital, or operational funding), but that is more than eaten up by the comparatively larger rural areas that also get supported through provincial taxes.

Because NS only has 1 city that is in the ballpark of being able to implement rapid transit there's no consistent transit funding and planning like there is for highways. Politically it is easier to sell highways as being for "everyone" and not just special infrastructure for the city.

I think the province and municipality really underestimate the amount of transit demand in Halifax and how few alternatives they have if they don't want to do 1960's-style freeway construction in brownfield areas. The city is growing by around 5% a year and due to its geography doesn't have a lot of good options for expanding road corridors.

Halifax has had BRT-like services going back to 2005 or so and has been building out bus lanes. The full BRT plan was never funded by the province (apparently federal funding would have been available). The province has created a transportation authority that is supposed to release some kind of long term vision for the region in the next year or so. It's hard to say how that will go.
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