Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How have you never been to Toronto?

I was only in Toronto once around 1999. I was 9 or 10 at the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CapitalCity613

2) Until a few years ago I lived in downtown Toronto for years. I can tell you Toronto is absolutely dead in the winter months. Where Ottawa and Montreal embrace winter, Toronto shuts down. There is only so many times you can skate at Nathan Phillips Square with the instagramers before it gets old. Despite what some people say, the winters in Toronto are long, cold, snowy/shushy, and can be pretty boring/dull. Ottawa has much more to offer in the winter.

Originally Posted by phil235

- Ottawa is by no means the only city that gets quieter in the summer. Toronto gets much quieter in the summer, as if anything, there was more of a compulsion to get out of the city. Ottawa is a better festival city than Toronto (but less good than Montreal). I would say that Toronto has made some strides in recent years, but most of the festivals feel like corporate versions of better festivals held elsewhere, so they don't feel homegrown or organic.
.

A few years ago I made a post which drew hilarious guffaws from Toronto boosters, in which I said that Ottawa actually had a more unique character and feel than Toronto does.

What I meant by that is that Ottawa plays its role as "Canada's capital" a lot more fulsomely than Toronto plays its role as "Canada's biggest city".

For all its shortcomings in terms of capital-esque grandeur, Ottawa arguably talks the talk and walks the walk in terms of being the country's capital.

Whereas Toronto talks the talk about being Canada's metropolis, but doesn't really walk the walk and exercise leadership or act as a catalyst for the national culture and identity.

Anyway...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

The same discussion has been going on for years. I am hopeful that it can change in the future with the city becoming bigger and some younger residents moving here from Toronto, Montreal, etc... We just need to get the ball rolling and make some improvements and hopefully the evolution will start snowballing on its own.

Ottawa needs to embrace URBAN CITY life, it is much too focussed on the quiet suburban life.

This. Very much this.

Yeah, Ottawa may not be able to get big name acts all the time. But why the heck, can't it work with what we have? Why do we have still have cars in the Market? Why is Spark St still so ugly and dead? Why can't we close Bank and Elgin to cars on weekends?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why do we have still have cars in the Market?

Because Ottawa city-planning is dictated by the suburbs.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why is Spark St still so ugly and dead?

Because nobody lives there and the people that work there don't live in the core.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why can't we close Bank and Elgin to cars on weekends?

Because Ottawa city-planning is dictated by the suburbs.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A few years ago I made a post which drew hilarious guffaws from Toronto boosters, in which I said that Ottawa actually had a more unique character and feel than Toronto does.

What I meant by that is that Ottawa plays its role as "Canada's capital" a lot more fulsomely than Toronto plays its role as "Canada's biggest city".

For all its shortcomings in terms of capital-esque grandeur, Ottawa arguably talks the talk and walks the walk in terms of being the country's capital.

Whereas Toronto talks the talk about being Canada's metropolis, but doesn't really walk the walk and exercise leadership or act as a catalyst for the national culture and identity.

Anyway...

I tend to think of Toronto as Canada's commercial capital. And Montreal as Canada's cultural capital. And I would argue that even most Torontonians see it that way. Hence the weekend trips to Montreal. Is it kitschy and stereotypical? Absolutely. But I don't think Torontonians actually think of their city as a cultural centre, the same way that say New Yorkers or Angelenos might think of their cities.

I would bet money that if HSR was built, the average middle class Torontonians would spend at least two weekends a year in Montreal. More if single.

[JHikka]

Canadians spend more time thinking about Toronto than Torontonians do thinking about the rest of Canada. Your opinion on what constitues Canada or Canadian culture can be whatever you want it to be but Toronto doesn't spare a thought for anyone that isn't Toronto and I don't understand why people think it needs to be any different. Just do your own thing and don't worry about anyone else. Perhaps Ottawa is boring and safe because it's always worrying about how people will perceive it.

[Truenorth00]

I gotta say, I think Gatineau is actually getting better at building a nice urban core, despite having some ugly and space hogging federal buildings foisted on them.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Because Ottawa city-planning is dictated by the suburbs.


Because nobody lives there and the people that work there don't live in the core.


Because Ottawa city-planning is dictated by the suburbs.

I think this is very key. While a city like Toronto has suburban areas within its boundaries, the vast number of outlying suburbs are not part of Toronto. Same with Montreal. The fact that Ottawa has political boundaries that give the suburban population the balance of power absolutely has an impact on the kind of policies that are implemented. And usually not in a good way. What other city has a 30-year rapid transit plan that literally draws a ring around its central urban neighbourhoods? And the only other cities that extend LRT 20km into the suburbs before properly serving downtown are cities like Calgary that are set up the same way.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Perhaps Ottawa is boring and safe because it's always worrying about how people will perceive it.

I think it's boring and safe because it's full of public servants who are boring and safe.

But I do think some of that at least is redeemable. Whenever I go to DC I think of some of the vibrant neighbourhoods they have.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Canadians spend more time thinking about Toronto than Torontonians do thinking about the rest of Canada. Your opinion on what constitues Canada or Canadian culture can be whatever you want it to be but Toronto doesn't spare a thought for anyone that isn't Toronto and I don't understand why people think it needs to be any different. Just do your own thing and don't worry about anyone else. Perhaps Ottawa is boring and safe because it's always worrying about how people will perceive it.

I'm not sure that being completely inward-looking is necessarily a good attribute. If I had a dime for every time someone claimed that something in Toronto was world class... It usually seemed to stem from an ignorance of what else was out there.

I don't mind that we compare ourselves with other places, as that raises the standard we apply to ourselves. I just wish it was coming from a less insecure place.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure that being completely inward-looking is necessarily a good attribute. If I had a dime for every time someone claimed that something in Toronto was world class... It usually seemed to stem from an ignorance of what else was out there.

Sure, but there's probably more value in Toronto looking outwardly to NYC and LA than looking towards Ottawa and Calgary, you know?

In these sorts of situations there's no appeasing everyone. 'Toronto only thinks about itself!' 'Toronto doesn't care about the rest of Canada!' 'Be more like us!' How dare Toronto have ambitions beyond our tiny border. If we look more inwardly and take stuff from Canada we'd be labeled as stealing other people's Canadiana, if we look outwardly Canadians criticize us as not caring enough about the rest of the country. It's a no-win.

Originally Posted by phil235

I don't mind that we compare ourselves with other places, as that raises the standard we apply to ourselves. I just wish it was coming from a less insecure place.

There's a big difference between comparing ourselves and generally looking in the mirror at every possible moment. Everything in Ottawa feels like it's been put through fourteen different hoops of approval before it hits the street and ends up being very watered-down once its out there. Patios, the Ottawa sign, festivals.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think it's boring and safe because it's full of public servants who are boring and safe.

I said the equivalent earlier in a much more long-winded fashion. Government cities be boring, more at 11.

Originally Posted by phil325

I think this is very key. While a city like Toronto has suburban areas within its boundaries, the vast number of outlying suburbs are not part of Toronto.

Whenever I walk around city improvements here i'm pretty confident that people in Brampton and Markham had no role in it whatsoever and that whatever is happening here is usually local-led and developed. In Ottawa I knew that if there was a bike lane being built near my place in Centretown it was because someone in Orleans or Kanata finally gave in and allowed it. Big difference.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sure, but there's probably more value in Toronto looking outwardly to NYC and LA than looking towards Ottawa and Calgary, you know?

In these sorts of situations there's no appeasing everyone. 'Toronto only thinks about itself!' 'Toronto doesn't care about the rest of Canada!' 'Be more like us!' How dare Toronto have ambitions beyond our tiny border. If we look more inwardly and take stuff from Canada we'd be labeled as stealing other people's Canadiana, if we look outwardly Canadians criticize us as not caring enough about the rest of the country. It's a no-win.


There's a big difference between comparing ourselves and generally looking in the mirror at every possible moment. Everything in Ottawa feels like it's been put through fourteen different hoops of approval before it hits the street and ends up being very watered-down once its out there. Patios, the Ottawa sign, festivals.

What you say is true, though I'd argue that Toronto can learn lots from looking at Montreal and Vancouver and even Ottawa at times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I gotta say, I think Gatineau is actually getting better at building a nice urban core, despite having some ugly and space hogging federal buildings foisted on them.

They're definitely and obviously trying harder.

But starting from oh-so-far behind.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I tend to think of Toronto as Canada's commercial capital. And Montreal as Canada's cultural capital. And I would argue that even most Torontonians see it that way. Hence the weekend trips to Montreal. Is it kitschy and stereotypical? Absolutely. But I don't think Torontonians actually think of their city as a cultural centre, the same way that say New Yorkers or Angelenos might think of their cities.

I would bet money that if HSR was built, the average middle class Torontonians would spend at least two weekends a year in Montreal. More if single.

I can definitely see this, though I doubt that most Torontonians see things this way - even if most do have a fondness for Montreal.

They still see their city as the be-all end-all of most things in Canada.

Also, even if things don't always start off that way, eventually the commercial capital becomes the cultural capital most of the time. As the main commercial centre is where the money is, and that's where patrons, sponsors and audiences (with money) are.

I mean, Montreal attained the cultural "capital" status it has (or had) by virtue of being Canada's commercial capital for a pretty long time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

. Perhaps Ottawa is boring and safe because it's always worrying about how people will perceive it.

I dunno. I can think of a city down the 417 that doesn't worry about how people perceive it and that's anything but boring. But sure, it's pretty safe these days. (But wasn't always such.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If we look more inwardly and take stuff from Canada we'd be labeled as stealing other people's Canadiana, if we look outwardly Canadians criticize us as not caring enough about the rest of the country. It's a no-win.
.

You mean like putting a poutine drawing on a Blue Jays' cap?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You mean like putting a poutine drawing on a Blue Jays' cap?

Fewer people complain if it's poutine then if it's roti or jerk chicken. The Jays are the only MLB team in Canada, so they're wearing the Canada cap more than the Toronto cap a lot of the time. Nothingburger.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can think of a city down the 417 that doesn't worry about how people perceive it and that's anything but boring.

That's exactly what I said.

Ottawa = boring, worried about perceptions
Montreal = not boring, not worried about perceptions

Originally Posted by Acajack

They still see their city as the be-all end-all of most things in Canada.

I really think this is more Canadians projecting what they think Toronto thinks and feels.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Fewer people complain if it's poutine then if it's roti. The Jays are the only MLB team in Canada, so they're wearing the Canada cap more than the Toronto cap a lot of the time. Nothingburger.
.

It's more amusing than anything else, though ironic that the true home of poutine is the most Jays-indifferent part of Canada.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's more amusing than anything else, though ironic that the true home of poutine is the most Jays-indifferent part of Canada.

They sure don't mind going to Jays games when they're there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I really think this is more Canadians projecting what they think Toronto thinks and feels.

Nah, I think it's true. Toronto generally has trouble fathoming that other parts of Canada could have stuff that they don't have, or stuff that could be better than what they have. Outside of gigantic mountains maybe.

You know, they're actually right about that a lot of the time. A big city's a big city after all, and just by virtue of that it generally has more stuff.