Western Canada. Love it, hate it or indifferent?

[ZeDgE]

We have one of the most progressive mayors in the country who won by a complete landslide.

Voters here are voting for a party not a candidate. One they feel will serve their interests the best in Ottawa. I bet most have no idea what Rob Anders gets up to or the stupid shit he says. They don't even pay attention. Hes a Conservative candidate, thats all they see. If the Liberals or NDP had any decent candidates or put in any effort here maybe they would have a chance. They just don't give a shit about Alberta and it shows. Nothing will change federally until they do.

I just don't like the insinuation that everyone voting conservative in Alberta are gay hating red necks or some garbage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

I just don't like the insinuation that everyone voting conservative in Alberta are gay hating red necks or some garbage.

I've never said that, and no one on here has either I don't think. But voting conservative doesn't make you the same as people who vote for the NDP, on a huge number of issues - and not just those related to money.

Not saying it's either good or bad, but it is definitely different.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

We have one of the most progressive mayors in the country who won by a complete landslide.

.

If you mean progressive in the sense of ''good'', then I agree. Nenshi is probably the best mayor of any large city in Canada. If you mean by progressive to be slightly to the left, then he doesn't really stand out that much from most big city mayors, except for Rob Ford of course.

In any event, mayors do not set broad economic or social policy. They are nuts and bolts, nitty gritty positions.

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Breathe...


and don't ever insinuate that I am a conservative again. Thank you.

I never said you were Conservative, so you must not have read what I typed? You need to be sure to read what is said before responding if that is the case. LOL

The focus was the NEP, and how that has turned Calgary relatively Conservative for another generation beyond what it already was. Honestly its a type of stockholm syndrome, because the energy markets in Alberta would be healthier today with the NEP than without. Again, the NEP would have reduced oil prices for Canadians - all Canadians - and it would have allowed a Canadian market to price the product higher for export to the US and other markets. This was protectionism, it was price controls, it was placing control of Canada's oil market inside Canadian borders instead of handing all the power over to brokers in Texas and New York, which is where all the power is today for setting the price of Canadian oil. Think of it as creating an independent, Canadian "OPEC" onto itself, if this helps you to understand what I'm saying. Conservatives gave up Canada's right to self regulate and gave up sovereignty over the oil market all because the tar sands had a hard time selling at a higher price abroad in the 80's and 90's with cheap OPEC supply, after OPEC hurt the world oil supply throughout the entire 1970's from where the NEP was born.

This is why the NEP was hated by Calgarians in the 80s... It made the price of tar sands oil more expensive for export just as OPEC dropped the price of their oil in the 80's (after causing worldwide hysteria in the 70's). This happened during the need for investment into development of the tar sands to make them profitable, which was temporarily bad for Calgary.

What Canadians and oil markets in Canada tend not to realize is that OPEC bankrupted lots of oil interests in North America. The NEP wasn't the cause of it. Half of Denver's skyline was built in the 80's from energy companies, and by the 90's most of those companies went bust. Dallas also underwent an overbuild of office space due to energy companies investing in the 80's, just to see the Dallas market for office space have a glut of unused space for over a decade thereafter when OPEC hit American energy producers hard. So much of that office space was built by energy companies expecting growth when the North American market retracted after OPEC flooded North America with cheap oil.

Yet myopic Conservatives in Canada blame the NEP for all problems. For Conservatives it was an easy political bashing point: NEP, Liberal = evil, bad. Stop, rewind, repeat and you win western Canadian votes for a generation to come. If I were a Conservative party member, I'd use that selling point as well. It works well for that party, even though its the biggest lie in modern political history.

I'm breathing just fine, I happen to find intellectual discourse on these issues interesting. And yes, western Canada still has a stockholm syndrome surrounding the NEP. Its hated by older people in the west for no reason at all, other than short term thinking from the 80's. And ultimately, as markets like Denver prove, the NEP had no real power vs OPEC in hurting investments into tar sands development. The tar sands really didn't become a boom until OPEC started raising prices anyway in the early 00's.

And again, tar sands oil from Alberta is sold today in 2013 for a fraction of other oil sources. New York markets price Canadian oil cheaply, Calgary doesn't earn as much per barrel as other oil sources. And that isn't because of the tar sands more intense extraction process, it is because Canada has no sovereignty on pricing its oil that the NEP would have allowed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

Voters here are voting for a party not a candidate. One they feel will serve their interests the best in Ottawa. I bet most have no idea what Rob Anders gets up to or the stupid shit he says. They don't even pay attention. Hes a Conservative candidate, thats all they see. If the Liberals or NDP had any decent candidates or put in any effort here maybe they would have a chance. They just don't give a shit about Alberta and it shows. Nothing will change federally until they do.

.

But we don't even have to narrow the focus on Anders. There is a long list of things about the Conservative Party of Canada that, if you pick just a couple or even just one, would normally prevent progressive-minded people from voting for them.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And that it's weird that we are being asked to believe that certain parts of the country, in spite of their voting record, are every bit as progressive as other areas which have consistently voted for social democratic parties for years or even decades.

I didn't say any of those things.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But we don't even have to narrow the focus on Anders. There is a long list of things about the Conservative Party of Canada that, if you pick just a couple or even just one, would normally prevent progressive-minded people from voting for them.

When it keeps them employed and living a comfortable life I disagree. Anders is by far the biggest idiot of them all, he has no business even being an MP.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I didn't say any of those things.

Not you perhaps, but it's a bona fide leitmotiv on here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

When it keeps them employed and living a comfortable life I disagree. Anders is by far the biggest idiot of them all, he has no business even being an MP.

Now I am confused. Which side are you on in this debate?

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Now I am confused. Which side are you on in this debate?

Voters continue to vote Conservative here for reasons other than social issues, in the larger urban areas anyway. Its primarily economic, nothing more. As Dr Nevergold stated it is a stockhom syndrome so to speak that for some reason continues. If the Conservatives went batshit insane and tried banning gay marriage, abortion, or something of the sort than I believe this would change. Or if the Liberals put any sort of effort out here.

For the record I have never voted Conservative in my entire life. I dislike the Conservatives and wish people would look more closely at who they are voting for, rather than blindly supporting a particular party.

Originally Posted by DLLB

Maybe we vote that way to protect ourselves from the Liberal governments of the past. I really don't think you would understand that.

Pretty much.

[ssiguy]

Western Canada has a lot to offer and is surprisingly diverse in it's makeup.

I've never been enamoured with Vancouver as the people are polite but very aloof. On the other hand I love the Island and the Kootenays.

I'm completely indifferent to sask and Edmonton but like Calgary and really like Winnipeg. Winnipeg has a real spirit, history, and sense of place without the boosterism of Calgary or the arrogance of Vancouver.

The one thing I definitely do not like about Western Canada are the small towns. While it has many nice cities I find the overwhelming amount of small town and villages quite ugly and unkept with few redeeming features. They really do look like one horse towns with ugly streets, little history, and little historic character.

I also find the housing in rural Canada to generally be quite ugly..........non-stop trailer houses with un kept yards and no planning. The settings can be beautiful but in generally the rural homes and small towns are quite messy especially compared to the beautiful small town of Ontario and nicely kept lawns and streets. Many parts of rural BC are truly dumpy looking and would look very comfortable in an Alabama trailer park.

I like Western Canada but I would still move back to Ontario if it was an option for me.

[DLLB]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This forum is probably the source of 97% of the claims I have ever heard about certain places not being conservative in spite of the way they vote. Everywhere else it does not seem to be an issue to correlate massive and consistent voting over decades for a particular party with a particular view of things.

To take another example, it would be like saying that people in the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean don't have a separatist streak, in spite of the way they generally have tended to vote.

Maybe we vote that way to protect ourselves from the Liberal governments of the past. I really don't think you would understand that.

[Dr Nevergold]

^Zedge, what Calgarians (well, really I should say the people who buy these old political arguments) don't seem to understand is that the NEP was created to protect the industry and give more power to Alberta and Canada as a whole to own its resources.

It is painful to listen to westerners fall into this faux east-west divide and blame eastern elitists for problems that have nothing to do with the NEP. The NEP is hands down the most misunderstood policy in modern Canadian history.

The NEP is so simple to understand. It was born during the 1970's OPEC embargo crises, the Liberals showed strong leadership on leading Canada to change during a major crisis. The NEP sought to promote development of oil, not inhibit it, and it mandated prices for oil be sold cheaply in Canada and more expensive as an export (primarily to the US). The NEP was not a scheme to make the west pay for eastern Canadian oil - it was designed to make foreign buyers pay a premium for export while ALL CANADIANS had a reduced market price for oil. It was to set price in Canada, not allow the world oil market - mostly in New York and Texas at this point - to set the price. It was still market based, it wasn't a socialist scheme of any type, it was just a regulated market.

The reason why some westerners hate the NEP is because it temporarily hurt oil sands investment dollars because it made tar sands oil more expensive (for export) during a period where OPEC was already flooding North America with cheap oil in the 80's.

Why this is so hard for people to understand I don't know, but if the NEP were allowed to continue, Canada could have sold its oil today - under high OPEC prices - at much higher rates and Canada could be reaping tons more profits.

Who would be the biggest beneficiary under the higher NEP oil exports? Alberta.

Liberals did absolutely nothing to hurt the west, they had national interests at heart. OPEC hurt the tar sands development, not the NEP, but blaming the NEP for all problems has become Conservative dogma and is an easy vote magnet. Just make the east out to be a boogeyman of elitists and say NEP, then you automatically get tons of votes in the west.

...its been good political strategy for the Conservatives, but honestly in 2013 most people don't even remember the NEP and don't care. Its a strategy that won't work for that party forever.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by ZeDgE

Voters continue to vote Conservative here for reasons other than social issues, in the larger urban areas anyway. Its primarily economic, nothing more. As Dr Nevergold stated it is a stockhom syndrome so to speak that for some reason continues. If the Conservatives went batshit insane and tried banning gay marriage, abortion, or something of the sort than I believe this would change.

For the record I have never voted Conservative in my entire life.

This is a good synopsis.

It's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it with family/friends in person. As long as the Conservatives don't rock the boat too much not much will change.

Reiterating myself but I hate it. It's a symptom of this country's intense regionalism.

[Dr Nevergold]

Any country of immense size will have regionalism. The Soviet Union broke up into many numerous countries. The US fought a bloody civil war over regionalism. In many respects, regionalism in America is what is bringing the government to its knees with repeated government shutdown and budgetary failures because certain regions don't want the federal government to function at all and want to strangle it. It isn't just the civil war showing the regionalism in the US, the modern era is blatantly on display and creating the dysfunction in Washington. Canada isn't nearly as choked with problems at this level.

Canada's regionalism is mostly an annoyance, not a serious problem. That is until Quebec starts to pretend its a different country when it isn't.

Canada has always been held to high regard in the international community for its social stability and its ability to stick together with its differences and not fight as intensely over it as other nations have.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

^Zedge, what Calgarians (well, really I should say the people who buy these old political arguments) don't seem to understand is that the NEP was created to protect the industry and give more power to Alberta and Canada as a whole to own its resources.

It is painful to listen to westerners fall into this faux east-west divide and blame eastern elitists for problems that have nothing to do with the NEP. The NEP is hands down the most misunderstood policy in modern Canadian history.

The NEP is so simple to understand. It was born during the 1970's OPEC embargo crises, the Liberals showed strong leadership on leading Canada to change during a major crisis. The NEP sought to promote development of oil, not inhibit it, and it mandated prices for oil be sold cheaply in Canada and more expensive as an export (primarily to the US). The NEP was not a scheme to make the west pay for eastern Canadian oil - it was designed to make foreign buyers pay a premium for export while ALL CANADIANS had a reduced market price for oil. It was to set price in Canada, not allow the world oil market - mostly in New York and Texas at this point - to set the price. It was still market based, it wasn't a socialist scheme of any type, it was just a regulated market.

The reason why some westerners hate the NEP is because it temporarily hurt oil sands investment dollars because it made tar sands oil more expensive during a period where OPEC was already flooding North America with cheap oil in the 80's.

Why this is so hard for people to understand I don't know, but if the NEP were allowed to continue, Canada could have sold its oil today - under high OPEC prices - at much higher rates and Canada could be reaping tons more profits.

Who would be the biggest beneficiary under the higher NEP oil exports? Alberta.

Liberals did absolutely nothing to hurt the west, they had national interests at heart. OPEC hurt the tar sands development, not the NEP, but blaming the NEP for all problems has become Conservative dogma and is an easy vote magnet. Just make the east out to be a boogeyman of elitists and say NEP, then you automatically get tons of votes in the west.

...its been good political strategy for the Conservatives, but honestly in 2013 most people don't even remember the NEP and don't care. Its a strategy that won't work for that party forever.

I agree with most of what your saying. I believe that the NEP also resulted in the loss of thousands of jobs did it not? That is probably what sticks in peoples minds the most. I was too young to really understand what happened back then but I do recall my Father cursing the Liberals alot.. It didnt help that Trudeau was giving the middle finger to citizens in Alberta.

People had bumper stickers on their cars that read "This is what Trudeau thinks of you" with an image of him giving the finger. That cut pretty deep in the minds of Albertans. Could you imagine if Harper did this in Ontario or Quebec today? Holy shit storm.

[Dr Nevergold]

Technically, you can blame the NEP for some temporary job losses in the 80's (temporary in the sense that the world oil price would eventually rise again so tar sands could become competitive such as it is today). But really it was OPEC. OPEC is the real problem, they created massive oil shocks in the 1970's that reduced supply to the point of massive shortages and raised the price of oil, and even if Canada had NEVER had an NEP, the price drops and massive flooding of oil supply in the 80's would most certainly have bankrupted tar sands development.

The NEP really isn't the boogeyman. Although you can always listen to a misinformed Conservative rant on and on about it, lying through their teeth. Like I said, it works well for that party, and the party is in the business of winning votes. Good for them, I suppose. But they are still lying bags of dung.

If you want proof, like I said it seems like half of Denver's skyline was built in the early 80's, as was Dallas. Most of those offices were built for energy services companies that went bankrupt. They had problems because of OPEC. And the NEP was not a law in effect in the USA... OPEC is the source of the problem of the 80's, because they decided to flood markets with cheap, abundant oil after hurting North America in the 1970's.

[DLLB]

Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold

^Zedge, what Calgarians (well, really I should say the people who buy these old political arguments) don't seem to understand is that the NEP was created to protect the industry and give more power to Alberta and Canada as a whole to own its resources.

It is painful to listen to westerners fall into this faux east-west divide and blame eastern elitists for problems that have nothing to do with the NEP. The NEP is hands down the most misunderstood policy in modern Canadian history.

The NEP is so simple to understand. It was born during the 1970's OPEC embargo crises, the Liberals showed strong leadership on leading Canada to change during a major crisis. The NEP sought to promote development of oil, not inhibit it, and it mandated prices for oil be sold cheaply in Canada and more expensive as an export (primarily to the US). The NEP was not a scheme to make the west pay for eastern Canadian oil - it was designed to make foreign buyers pay a premium for export while ALL CANADIANS had a reduced market price for oil. It was to set price in Canada, not allow the world oil market - mostly in New York and Texas at this point - to set the price. It was still market based, it wasn't a socialist scheme of any type, it was just a regulated market.

The reason why some westerners hate the NEP is because it temporarily hurt oil sands investment dollars because it made tar sands oil more expensive (for export) during a period where OPEC was already flooding North America with cheap oil in the 80's.

Why this is so hard for people to understand I don't know, but if the NEP were allowed to continue, Canada could have sold its oil today - under high OPEC prices - at much higher rates and Canada could be reaping tons more profits.

Who would be the biggest beneficiary under the higher NEP oil exports? Alberta.

Liberals did absolutely nothing to hurt the west, they had national interests at heart. OPEC hurt the tar sands development, not the NEP, but blaming the NEP for all problems has become Conservative dogma and is an easy vote magnet. Just make the east out to be a boogeyman of elitists and say NEP, then you automatically get tons of votes in the west.

...its been good political strategy for the Conservatives, but honestly in 2013 most people don't even remember the NEP and don't care. Its a strategy that won't work for that party forever.

Not nearly as painful as those who lost their jobs or houses. Some of whom I knew. Did you know any friends in this situation?

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by DLLB

Not nearly as painful as those who lost their jobs or houses. Some of whom I knew. Did you know any friends in this situation?

Blame OPEC... That was the real reason they lost their jobs. This is an issue of not seeing the forest for the trees. If the NEP had been upheld as a policy, and oil was priced in Canada at higher prices for export, Calgary would have even more of a jobs boom today than it already does. The NEP wasn't the cause of the problem or the potential boom, it was just a mechanism to allow Canadian control over the tar sands market. That's it.

You do realize Denver's energy services sector had the exact same bust as Calgary in the 1980's, right?? A matter of fact, energy isn't even a big player in Denver anymore (at least not to the extent of how energy built Denver's skyline in the 80's) and its mostly moved onto Texas. All those poor energy workers in Denver that lost their jobs in the tens of thousands weren't under any policy crafted by Trudeau or any Canadian government. OPEC is to blame. They made the conscious choice to flood North America with cheap, abundant sweet crude after creating a living hell in the 1970's. OPEC created the incentive for all the jobs growth in the late 70's and early 80's for energy in North America, then they destroyed it.

Again, some westerners (mostly the older generation) have found comfort in finding a boogeyman that really doesn't exist. It can make you FEEL better to place blame somewhere it doesn't belong, but it doesn't make it true.

[memememe76]

Not sure why Albertans defend their voting record by saying they're voting "West" or whatever. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and BC have all shown a much greater diversity in their voting patterns--federally, provincially and locally.