DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Cirrus]

I wonder if a handful of trains per day as part of a Front Range Amtrak line would satisfy Boulder. And I wonder if that would be practical given the track constraints. I don't really remember the details of the track constraints.

And intercity station is more prestigious when you think about it. It means you're your own city, not just the farthest-away suburb of the main city. If it's all about prestige anyway--and it is as far as Boulder's concerned--they should be happier with that.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I'm more interested in the Amtrak line. If Amtrak can do a Boulder Junction to Denver Union Station straight shot in 30-35 minutes, that could be appealing. But a B line that would take as long as the Flatiron Flyer and service less desirable stops makes little sense other than avoiding the optics of aborting a commitment that RTD made in 2004. Frankly, the full B line is likely not the only part of FasTracks that might never come to fruition. I thought RTD studied the L line extension and found that it was more or less not practicably possible.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

I'm more interested in the Amtrak line. If Amtrak can do a Boulder Junction to Denver Union Station straight shot in 30-35 minutes, that could be appealing. But a B line that would take as long as the Flatiron Flyer and service less desirable stops makes little sense other than avoiding the optics of aborting a commitment that RTD made in 2004. Frankly, the full B line is likely not the only part of FasTracks that might never come to fruition. I thought RTD studied the L line extension and found that it was more or less not practicably possible.

I think the issue that limited the L Line was due to the Downtown Loop being at capacity and needing to be expanded with the addition of a pocket track. Instead, they crammed the route in by sacrifcing timing on one D and one F train per hour which also had other operational benefits. As the capital project still hasn't been done the L Line is still limited to what it currently is. This lack of pocket track also limits the D, F, and H lines as well and has contributed to the drop in on-time performance. RTD has squeezed everything it has from the Downtown Loop without planning on how to improve this link in the future.

RTD: Sacrificing successful routes in need of expansion for suburban buses and Boulderite egos. Oh, and being woke enough to let the homeless take over the Union Station bus terminal.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I wonder if a handful of trains per day as part of a Front Range Amtrak line would satisfy Boulder.

Since you linked to it, why not listen to it; it's how I start my day.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

Did I misread the fine print on this blog that you had to be anti-Boulder, conservative to contribute? Every time I check this blog which is more and more rare it's some anti-Boulder bullsh*t. Boulder deserves the same level of transit service as other areas of the metro-area, but I know most of you won't agree. Feel free to remove me from this blog. Sick of it.

It's somewhat fair to point out that most of the bloggers here are very City of Denver myopic. Even close by Aurora as been the object of scorn since it's a place where people can affordably live.

Just curious?
Are you by chance familiar with Boulder County's Transportation Masterplan (there's a whole lot to it). Boulder/County has invested a lot of time and effort into this and it is very comprehensive and well done. There's been specific analysis with respect to BRT routes - that would actually serve people from where they are to where they want to go.

Here's a link that piggybacks on Cirrus' Amtrak strategy.

GOOD NEWS
Lost the link but the recently passed Stimulus Bill included a Big Chunk of money for transit agencies. This money is intended to support operational costs of transit agencies through 2022. The previous Stimulus passed in December was what covered transit costs for 2021.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I wonder if a handful of trains per day as part of a Front Range Amtrak line would satisfy Boulder. And I wonder if that would be practical given the track constraints. I don't really remember the details of the track constraints.

If I remember correctly from conversations on this forum (admittedly it has been YEARS now since this has been discussed), the track constraints on the B-line basically come down to the fact that the entire line is a single-tracked freight corridor. The plan was always to share this track with freight trains, complete with delays to let freight trains through. All of Denver's EMU lines have been constructed as a separate track parallel to the freight trains (I believe this is even a regulatory requirement, but I'm not 100% sure about that part).

Adding new tracks would turn this into a completely different project. It would need to involve whole new elevated structures in locations such as this very old embankment in Westminster, not to mention right-of-way acquisition along the whole line that was never planned for. I also seem to remember that the track also goes under some roadway bridges that do not have enough clearance to accommodate the EMU electric wires and that replacing these bridges wasn't ever a part of the plan.

Of course, this was all decided back in the early-2000s when the project was still estimated to be only around $117 million. Now that this has ballooned almost tenfold (and the existing infrastructure has aged almost 20 years), it seems it would be worth questioning ALL of these factors again.

I'm not entirely sure how these track constraints would affect Amtrak. I suppose technologically it would be possible to run a traditional Amtrak train (certainly nothing new like Acela) on this line with minimal modifications since Amtrak just runs on old-fashioned freight tracks almost everywhere it goes.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

The difficulty for rail and RTD specifically seems that they will go to great lengths to develop their rail corridors in the most cost effective manner without committing to providing a product that actually makes the rail attractive to riders that might otherwise drive. If you plan a train to slowly drag along an old freight track with the potential need to delay a trip to allow for passing freight, don't be surprised if there's a complete vacuum of demand for that service.

The A line is a great corridor but unless the cost of driving and parking in commercial districts (CBD, DTC, etc...) substantially increases, the cost benefit of riding light rail or commuter rail does not make sense to much of the population. I love rail and I've used it extensively in Italy and China but we are so willing to settle for rail lines that are frankly obsolete compared to even modern African standards

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

The A line is a great corridor but unless the cost of driving and parking in commercial districts (CBD, DTC, etc...) substantially increases, the cost benefit of riding light rail or commuter rail does not make sense to much of the population.

Agreed. The G line is actually pretty great too, despite some obvious cutbacks in places and ongoing signal-timing issues. A 21 min ride from Olde Town Arvada to Union Station is competitive with driving and parking at peak hour and the ride is nearly always smooth and on time. Unfortunately, for now, Olde Town is the only station along the line with anything really happening nearby.

And you're absolutely right - the number of people in the metro area who have an origin AND destination close enough to transit to make it work is pretty small. Same is true in Boulder - a train might be nice for all those new residents and workers near 30th and Pearl (and to give due credit, the area is infilling quite nicely), but this location is still a good 20 minutes away from most people and existing destinations in Boulder. In this way I actually feel worse for Louisville than Boulder - the train would actually serve their little downtown.

Now that my morning fog is wearing off, I also seem to recall that a LOT has changed between RTD and BNSF since 2004. I vaguely remember something about changes to the shared track arrangement due to liability issues, but I don't remember where it all landed in terms of keeping the single track. Needless to say, it's a mess.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by mr1138

the track constraints on the B-line basically come down to the fact that the entire line is a single-tracked freight corridor.

So that's completely unworkable for an every-15-minutes train, but might not be a deal-breaker for an every-two-hours one.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Apartment developer buys pharmaceutical plant site in Denver’ Baker neighborhood for $26M

A drugmaker ending its operations in Denver has sold the site of its Baker facility to a developer planning apartments.

Minnesota-based Upsher-Smith Laboratories’ property at 301 S. Cherokee St. was purchased last week by an entity affiliated with Austin, Texas-based Cypress Real Estate Advisors, according to public records.

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/04/1...t-site-denver/

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by mr1138

...I have long imagined that the best (only?) way to save the project would be to someday integrate it in to something like a Front Range Passenger Rail project - and completely re-think the technology and maybe even the route.

Now here we are, and the fact that some aren't willing to even have that conversation - that Polis insists that the line be built EXACTLY as proposed nearly 20 years ago, complete with all its known flaws - honestly feels like political indignance nearly as egregious as opposing health science in the face of a global pandemic....

There's another way to get a train to Boulder. Let Boulder pay for it themselves and subsidize it! Ain't nothing wrong with people voting to pay for something, no matter how useless it may be - we vote for nonsensical spending all the time!

As I have suggested in the past, ANY infrastructure spending coming from the state or federal government should have yuuge strings attached and reward communities/states which effectively force changes to local zoning laws. All federal spending should have these strings IMO. Trump proposed a working group that came to this conclusion with Ben Carson leading and the media reaction was quite different, as you may imagine. Nonetheless, this opinion piece from NYT perfectly summarizes the connection between transit and development, for anyone wanting to parlay this back into a development forum.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/12/o...re-zoning.html

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

Did I misread the fine print on this blog that you had to be anti-Boulder, conservative to contribute? Every time I check this blog which is more and more rare it's some anti-Boulder bullsh*t. Boulder deserves the same level of transit service as other areas of the metro-area, but I know most of you won't agree. Feel free to remove me from this blog. Sick of it.

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, leave or go, but at least characterize people correctly. We aint conservative lol... unless it comes to Denver paying for Boulder's useless/redundant train.

Boulder has better bus and BRT service than anywhere else in the metro. It also happens to be 35 miles away and surrounded by a buffalo preserve of their own creation for the literal express purpose of keeping a barrier between them and Denver. Then you accuse people who oppose a $2 billion train that duplicates service that already exists of "being conservative," when Denver has NEVER voted against a tax increase and would likely tax itself again to have actual transit that serves Denver. The State of CO and RTD just keep rewarding cities that ARE conservative and DO vote down every tax proposal because they know they can just get the state or Denver to pay for everything.

Boulder is conservative and unwelcoming, all the limousine liberal virtue signaling BS aside. Denver is progressive and welcoming to all. Let's get that one thing straight. Why should the progressive metro pay for the conservative city's sh**?

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Boulder has better transit service than any other place of comparable population in Colorado.

The problem with the train is it goes to the wrong places. It misses the actual places people use transit to reach: Downtown and CU.

Boulder does not need a every expensive train that doesn't serve useful stops and very few people to ride, just to have the status symbol of getting a train instead of a bus. That wouldn't be getting its fair share. That would be prioritizing Boulder's status over its actual transit service, which, um, no.

If Boulder wanted to change its zoning to allow 50,000 or so more people to live by 30th Street station, then there might be a case for the train being worth it. But Boulder would rather push that growth out to the plains.

if we aren't willing to value the cultural impact boulder provides the state/country/world properly, then we deserve nothing. this isn't monopoly and boulder isn't just another average title in our hold. boulder is a magnificent cultural center of learning and more. world renowned for what is provides all of us in so many ways. we should celebrate the jewel that boulder is and help it in any way we can. this isn't a zero zum world, right? throwing resources toward progress in every way is critical, especially now in a time when free thought and truth is under attack.

i say build boulder a train or a gondola or a giant drone transport system or whatever else would be awesome that help shine a light on progress, learning, truth, and the american dream.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Even close by Aurora as been the object of scorn since it's a place where people can affordably live.

Yeah, that's not at all why people here hate Aurora and you know it.

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I'm not entirely sure how these track constraints would affect Amtrak. I suppose technologically it would be possible to run a traditional Amtrak train (certainly nothing new like Acela) on this line with minimal modifications since Amtrak just runs on old-fashioned freight tracks almost everywhere it goes.

A significant amount of planning has already been done on the FRPR. Hopefully Amtrak will just fork over some cash for the state’s effort and we will run it, because the 35mph avg speed service they just tweeted about is the same 19th century thinking that has turned Amtrak into a money pit with no resulting useful service outside of the Northeast.

The alternatives analysis published in December envisions a dedicated double track line for the FRPR. They are currently using a federal grant to create a freight traffic model for the lines to determine if costs can be reduced by using the existing freight line. I think there are a lot of good options there - coal traffic is disappearing and BNSF will never get a better price.

If you look at Appendix H of the Alternatives analysis, HDR has recommended studying a US36 alignment instead of using the freight line. This would have the advantage of being much faster for FRPR. For RTD it would potentially allow re-using the park & ride infrastructure. The two problems are that it will require significant viaducts to cross US36 and to run on Foothills Parkway. It also has challenging grades near Marshall Rd.

https://e29d6cbe-aafd-4873-8a58-cd67...2959706a37.pdf

[TakeFive]

Wait... Wut... You want me to be more blunt?

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Yeah, that's not at all why people here hate Aurora and you know it.

Some of it was 'provincial' but mostly it was a class thing.

For the record
I had moved from SE Denver (U-Hills) to the eastern edge of the tech center. After several years, in thinking about 'following' the growth I picked between moving across the pond into Aurora or moving to Highlands Ranch. I chose Aurora to stay close to Cherry Creek Reservoir and within Cherry Creek School Dist. I also picked Aurora b/c I like to be busy; I like working with a diverse product and the people that come with it.

Between 1990 and 2005...

Aurora was criticized for "All That Density"; all those (crappy) condos and neighborhoods of attached housing from Town Homes to duplexes, fourplexes etc. All that density, after all, invited more diversity and affordability. During that time nobody had ever heard of the 'missing middle' or considered it a good thing. I was lucky in that I chose a career where early, often and continually we were instructed to not discriminate in any form or fashion.

That's not to say I didn't hear every kind of prejudice from my clients. For example, those who lived in CCSD looked down on those who lived in Aurora School Dist or Littleton School Dist or (God Forbid) Denver School Dist. Peoples individual preferences and prejudices came with the territory.

For the most part I'm unbothered by people's prejudices. It's just an ongoing part of the landscape.

[gopokes21]

No, TakeFive, Aurora is not too dense and nobody has ever suggested that.

[Launch 12]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

I mean you're entitled to your opinion, leave or go, but at least characterize people correctly. We aint conservative lol... unless it comes to Denver paying for Boulder's useless/redundant train.

Boulder has better bus and BRT service than anywhere else in the metro. It also happens to be 35 miles away and surrounded by a buffalo preserve of their own creation for the literal express purpose of keeping a barrier between them and Denver. Then you accuse people who oppose a $2 billion train that duplicates service that already exists of "being conservative," when Denver has NEVER voted against a tax increase and would likely tax itself again to have actual transit that serves Denver. The State of CO and RTD just keep rewarding cities that ARE conservative and DO vote down every tax proposal because they know they can just get the state or Denver to pay for everything.

Boulder is conservative and unwelcoming, all the limousine liberal virtue signaling BS aside. Denver is progressive and welcoming to all. Let's get that one thing straight. Why should the progressive metro pay for the conservative city's sh**?

The argument you present is bullsh*t and one sided and is the theme of this blog, so this may be my last post. Boulder is barely farther than other parts of the Denver metro area that are served by train. It is an intuitive destination in the train network and should be logically connected to the whole network. I don't understand the whole Denver vs. Boulder perspective of this blog. Boulder is part of the Denver metro area the same way Pasadena is part of the LA metro area, or Berkeley or San Jose is part of the SF metro area, or Cambridge part of the Boston metro area etc. And the repeating comments that we have BRT service equivalent to a train service is also bullsh*t. It's an express bus that only resembles BRT by the design of the stations....that's it. So, it is unfair that Boulder doesn't have the same level of service as other parts of the metro area and just because you have negative perceptions of the people that live in Boulder doesn't mean it does not deserve the service it voted for. Taxes from Boulder have contributed to the construction of lines in other areas. The whole us vs. them mentality of the blog is depressing to me. Good bye.

[Cirrus]

The train would not give Boulder an equal level of service. It would come less often and not go to the right place. It's not better than the BRT. This is why we say you just want prestige.

If that seems unfair, tell us what you really want.

Otherwise... bye.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

if we aren't willing to value the cultural impact boulder provides the state/country/world properly, then we deserve nothing. this isn't monopoly and boulder isn't just another average title in our hold. boulder is a magnificent cultural center of learning and more. world renowned for what is provides all of us in so many ways. we should celebrate the jewel that boulder is and help it in any way we can. this isn't a zero zum world, right? throwing resources toward progress in every way is critical, especially now in a time when free thought and truth is under attack.

i say build boulder a train or a gondola or a giant drone transport system or whatever else would be awesome that help shine a light on progress, learning, truth, and the american dream.

Brilliant. And who said satire was dead?