SW Ring Road Debate

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Ok fine, but riding the bus in Winnipeg while I was there for 5 years was pretty convenient. All types of people rode the bus as well, not just low-income. It inspired me to take transit more. I just think there is something to be learned from every city.

Certainly. But living in Winnipeg, then moving to Calgary - I see some pretty highly-paid and high ranking corporate execs on the LRT every day. In Winnipeg there's still a large stigma against taking transit (the phrase "loser cruiser" was used far too often around me). Calgary has some of this, but at least for the LRT, damn near everyone is at least willing to go on it.

As to why the Ring Road was built now - Calgary is being pro-active, but not overly so. Keep in mind Winnipeg's "ring road" was built in the early 70s and at the time was waaaaay outside of the built-up city. It took decades before anyone really used it other than to by-pass the city. With Stoney Trail, its time has come. It won't be more than 10 years before additional lanes are desperately needed as the city continues to expand and grow.

[craner]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Lol, that is just what I call large freeways that cut the city into segments.

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

[craner]

Originally Posted by shogged

no like, the province is building the highway and maintaining it, city has nothing to do with it aside from the land. so it's not like the selrt or other city infrastructure projects.

so we're not getting any money for the ring road, province has the money, they're spending it etc etc

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The bus system in Calgary is a feeder for the LRT system (aside from the downtown express and BRT busses). Again, not really comparable.

What are you talking about? The feeder bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is also building a BRT as well which is very similar (in theory) to an LRT.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by craner

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

Does the city of Calgary get any money from the province for infrastructure? Yes. It is all related isn't it? I have to say, I still dont agree with building everything during record high construction costs no matter where the money comes from; that was my original comment.......... Call me silly I guess??

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by craner

Thanks shogged,
That is the point I was trying to get accross.

Originally Posted by craner

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

yeah, you are right I guess. I just really dont like how the suburbs are set up. I find them very strange.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by kw5150

What are you talking about? The feeder bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Winnipeg is also building a BRT as well which is very similar (in theory) to an LRT.

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

Winnipeg has a much more extensive cross-city system (both downtown-transiting radial and outer rings). I can't think of too many routes in Calgary that even compare. Most of the buses here seem to be LRT feeders or from a suburb to downtown.

Mind you, with the LRT being what it is I don't often take a lot of different buses here, so I may be unaware of quite a lot of routes.

One thing I definitely don't see in Calgary is as many buses on major thoroughfares. Winnipeg's major streets are often clogged with buses (imagine MacLeod with a bus every 100 feet or so during rush hour). The closest Winnipeg has to "feeder buses" are very short routes in far-flung suburbs to connect to the longer cross-city routes, that only run during rush hour, or on an otherwise very limited schedule. My feeder to the LRT runs from 5am to 1am, and I'm in the middle of nowhere. Winnipeg used to have shuttles that basically did not run unless you actually called for it to pick you up (there was no established schedule, it would just idle until someone needed it) - not sure if these still exist or not. Like you say, apples and oranges.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The majority of busses in Calgary go into the suburbs and then drop people off at the LRT, then people take the LRT into downtown. I'm not sure how it works in Winnipeg, but the lack of an LRT makes it different, therefore apples and oranges. As I stated before, you can't compare Calgary to Winnipeg, they are very different cities.

Yes, but not all buses go to LRT stations in Calgary. Bowness for example. Dont be silly, there are total comparisons. The smaller bus lines feed the major bus lines in Winnipeg. Very easy comparison.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Winnipeg has a much more extensive cross-city system (both downtown-transiting radial and outer rings). I can't think of too many routes in Calgary that even compare. Most of the buses here seem to be LRT feeders or from a suburb to downtown.

Mind you, with the LRT being what it is I don't often take a lot of different buses here, so I may be unaware of quite a lot of routes.

One thing I definitely don't see in Calgary is as many buses on major thoroughfares. Winnipeg's major streets are often clogged with buses (imagine MacLeod with a bus every 100 feet or so during rush hour). Like you say, apples and oranges.

Ok, for a minute, imagine Pembina highway, Winnipeg being just like an LRT line except instead of and LRT you have a mix of standard and rapid bus lines running back and fourth. Imagine confusion corner as an LRT hub. Transit systems can be compared no matter what system they use.

I get what you are saying about Calgary's system being a feeder system totally. Other systems also perform the same way though, just differently.

[kw5150]

Anyway, now that we have destroyed yet another thread with off topic comments.............should we get on with the SW ring road? LOL

[ggopher]

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

I think we clearly do need a complete ring road, especially the SW portion.

The 37th street option is a stop gap measure at best, the ultimate design of the ring road called for a 16 lane freeway, which we will need eventually. I think it is time that we start thinking long term. The goal of Plan It Calgary was to set out a long-term direction for sustainable growth to accommodate another 1.3 million people over the next 60 years, and that is where we need to focus. Calgary with a total population of over 2 million people, and sorry no ammount of busses or LRT lines is going to solve all of our traffic problems.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

[Wentworth]

The one smart thing I heard Barb Higgins say during the election -- and ggohper hinted at this -- is that we need to talk directly to the members of the Tsuu T'ina to find out why they voted against the deal. I don't know what the situation is with their band, but I've heard stories about other bands where band members see very little of the money or benefits that flow into the reserve. It's possible that they didn't necessarily see or trust that they'd see any benefit from the money and land swap, perhaps the average band member figured that all of the money would flow to the band's government, and they'd lose their current homes and be forced to live much further away from Calgary.

Secondly, there should be a moratorium on growth in the far SW already.

Great freeways don't make great cities. The Weaselhead is part of what makes Calgary great. The Ring Road is not. I'm totally opposed to any option B that goes down 37th Street.

[kw5150]

The rumour is.............the deal was self-serving for the cheifs and left the everyday people suffering. The cheifs were trying to be secretive about the deal and when the everyday people found out, they voted against it.

Also, running a freeway through that area would mean ALOT of changes in how people percieve the virtually untouched area. ... It is very similar to the weaselhead and what it means to Calgarians.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Does the city of Calgary get any money from the province for infrastructure? Yes. It is all related isn't it? I have to say, I still dont agree with building everything during record high construction costs no matter where the money comes from; that was my original comment.......... Call me silly I guess??

I didn't see a comment from you about building at high costs in this thread, I think you are confusing it with the Transit thread.

[Rise_of_the_West]

Living in the west end of Calgary near the affected area for most of my life i think a few things are needed before any road option is considered. First of all Crowchild and access to downtown from the west has to be improved. Even as it is now its backed up badly every day. Add all the commuters from the deep SW onto this and you have total gridlock.

As for the option I prefer, I would like to see a tunnel (~1.8km long) under the resivoir connecting directly to Crowchild from 37th Street. This would have the least enviromental impact. It is essential in my opinion that this tunnel have HOV lanes to allow better transit service to the area.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by craner

But 14th Street already exists - how does adding interchanges "cut the city into segments" ?

The plans to upgrade 14th into a freeway included interchanges and additional lanes. There is not enough room in the current ROW for this. The plans were on every ten year transportation plan for a few decades but there was significant community opposition, because of the number of expropriations required, so the city quietly shelved them.

In south central Calgary there are currently four major north-south roads across less than three miles of the city. Building a freeway wall between neighbourhoods every mile is not a solution to transportation issues. There just isn't enough room in the inner city/inner suburbs to give people from south of Fish Creek a quick free flow commute. Established communities should not have to suffer for poorly planned growth on the fringes. It is a stop gap measure, at best, that will only delay the problem at the cost of other people's livability.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by ggopher

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

I agree with you.

The chief of the Tsuu Tina has repeatedly stated, that in his opinion, the reason the deal was turned down was because there was no guarantee that the band would actually recieve the land agreed to in the settlement.

The land in question is NW of Bragg Creek, is Crown-leased land, almost all of which is held by one family, the Copithornes. For those of you who don't know, the Copithornes own or lease large tracts of land west of Springbank. Clarence Copithorne, the scion of the family, was a cabinet minister in Peter Lougheed's government and is often credited with being the inspiration behind the establishment of Kannanskis Country, which just happened to be west of his property.

AFAIK, nobody has asked the Copithornes if they would be willing to sell their leases.

The obvious solution, to me, is to get an option to buy back the leases, guarantee the Tsuu Tina that the road doesn't get built until the land is transferred to them, and put it to another vote.

[Vascilli]

I propose a tunnel.

[Jack Doe]

Regarding: turning 14 St SW into a freeway.

I live in the land of kings a 1/2 east of 14th Street SW. I would dearly love to see 14 St turned into a freeway. I have always regarded 14 St as being basicly an extension of Crowchild Trail.

As to it being a barrier between communities, it is, and has been, a barrier for the last 40 years. Turning it into a freeway isn't going to change that and actually might make it more pedestrian-friendly as thru-traffic will now be separated from pedestrian movements.

Regarding: Expropriation of houses to expand 14 St to a freeway.

14 St/Anderson Rd - ROW protected, no expropriation necessary.

14 St/Southland Dr - ROW protected, requirements have changed since the 70's, some expropriation necessary in the SW quadrant (5-10 houses?).

14 St/90 Av - No Expropriation necessary.

14 St/Heritage Dr - No Expropriation necessary* (See 75 Av).

14 St/75 Av - This is where the problem is. The current plan is for Eagle Ridge Dr to be extended southward to connect to Heritage Dr. The houses to the east of Eagle Ridge Dr would be acquired and demolished. Eagle Ridge Dr would essentially become a service road between Heritage Dr and Rockyview Hospital.


Eagle Ridge is the problem to any expansion of 14th St. There is an anonymous cabal that has been most successful at blocking any expansion of 14th St against the wishes of the majority of the people who live, work, and drive, in this area of Calgary.

As far as I'm concerned, you could bulldoze this entire self-centered elitist community and I wouldn't shed a tear. They can rebuild out in Springbank where they belong.