Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[RC14]

Originally Posted by i-215

SLC gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to NuSkin because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Now we're basically giving away 2 blocks to SEG for an "urgent need" (and a symphony hall, for the hell of it)

I'm sorry. Giving away public goods to billionaires is regressive policy and absoultely bull shit. I can't afford a house anywhere west of Kansas. Investors are gobbling up everything. But hey, sure, let's keep doubling down on the garbage 1980s corporate welfare mindset. I'm sure SLC will benefit this time.

Slapping a few SEG luxury condos on top ("for the workers") does nothing to address this city's REAL problems.

I don't like the tax increase or the subsidies, but the "giving away of two blocks." I don't think is comparable to those other situations you listed. We, as the public, not as the government of Salt Lake County, are getting those two blocks back and at least one of the two streets that we lost due to the convention center being "overbuilt."

I think there is this mindset that if the government controls something, then the people control it, and if it's private property, then we have lost it to the rich but that isn't always true. Most of us get no benefit from Area 51, even though that is government property. We can't go there without getting shot. Yet, we can walk through the City Creek Center 6 days/week. For most of the city, most of the time, the convention center block are just dead space in the city fabric. They are also, as someone else mentioned, a tax hole for the city. We all, including the city and county governments, will get more out of those blocks, if this project happens and is done right, then we are currently getting from them.

[wrendog]

thanks for linking that podcast. The collab between the city and SEG is going to be just fine

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by i-215

SLC gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to NuSkin because of an "urgent need"

Provo gave away a street to the LDS Church because of an "urgent need"

Now we're basically giving away 2 blocks to SEG for an "urgent need" (and a symphony hall, for the hell of it)

I'm sorry. Giving away public goods to billionaires is regressive policy and absoultely bull shit. I can't afford a house anywhere west of Kansas. Investors are gobbling up everything. But hey, sure, let's keep doubling down on the garbage 1980s corporate welfare mindset. I'm sure SLC will benefit this time. We all know LA Live fixed homelessness and cured the area around Staples from all its social ills /s.

Slapping a few SEG luxury condos on top ("for the workers") does nothing to address this city's REAL problems.

What investment do I have currently in the Salt Palace block? What can I actually do, as a citizen of Salt Lake City, with that block currently? Am I allowed to walk into the Salt Palace at any time, regardless of what time of day? When conventions are held there, do I get to attend for free?

When FanX is held there, can I go for free?

So, what's the rub here?

If we were talking an open space, like a park or a square, I absolutely could see your point. But what is Salt Lake actually giving away?

[Rileybo]

Sniff sniff… oh no, what a massive loss this would be. My grandkids were supposed to inherit these blocks.

[Nebula3lem123]

Look, I don't think anyone here thinks this situation is ideal, It sucks that we have to give public money to Smith, and it sucks that ultimately it's his plan. At the same time, I don't think we should use this situation as an excuse to give up or refuse to work with what we have. If we aren't willing to negotiate with Smith, he won't know how we feel and he won't do what we want him to, so we can either endlessly complain about it, or engage with the issues and make the best out of it.

[Blah_Amazing]

Reimagining Downtown Salt Lake City for the NHL. Includes a summary of my own personal ideas and ideas from others for a new vision for the new Sports, Entertainment, Culture and Convention District, a potential future for the Salt Palace Convention Center, the West Quarter, and Japantown.



For some reason, the image isn't quite as clear when I shrink it, so here is the original in spoilers for better reading:

I know it's unlikely to get everything on here. I just wanted to show what could be possible and treat this as basically a 'wishlist'

Anything you would add or change?

[i-215]

Poke at me. Fine.

When I lived in Provo for 14 years, I actually preferred walking around the city before the NuSkin and temple developments. It felt like an actual downtown. But the city gave away a street. And then another street. And now, while the economic activity is a big improvement, the downtown has forever lost its "downtown" nature. There is a gigantic L-shaped block now that's lost 24/7 public access. That part of town may as well be a suburb. And it's stuck that way forever.

Yes, restoring 100 South through the convention center block is great. But don't you dare try to tell me that the convention center (public) and City Creek (private) are comparable, simply because they both have time-manner-place restrictions.

WE set those restrictions for the convention center. WE elect representatives to the Salt Lake County Council (not me specifically, as I currently do not live in SLCo, obviously).

A private developer? It's forever an asset to buy and sell amongst billionaires and hedge funds. And the only way WE can ever get it back is to give them an extravagant about of money to buy it back someday. We are stewards of our public assets, to protect and pass on to future generations of city residents. And they're going to be so pissed off at us for giving everything away for a couple of restaurants and a hotel.

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo continue to own the blocks and LEASE it SEG (at a profit) in exchange for use of the land (market rate)?

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo get part ownership in the Delta Center in exchange for the tax revenue subsidy (proportional percentage)?

I just feel like SLC is giving away its long-term future (50+ years) for medium-term goals (20+ years). And the rushed nature of this is VERY troublesome. Even the LDS church (who owned and financed their own project) took years to build up to City Creek. This is happening over a matter of weeks.

It really makes me feel like I'm in an episode of The Twilight Zone to see so few of you concerned about this. Like... if you all suddenly said, "Let's demolish the 600S and 500S corridors and rebuild the elevated viaducts only BIGGER" -- and I was the one shouting that we need to slow down. That's how this feels.

[RC14]

I kind of get what your saying but the context is weird. The "L shaped" blocks in Provo are exactly what the convention center is in Salt Lake.

I think it's okay to feel uneasy about this, and I do. But I don't feel like we are giving away the farm here.
If the NHL never happened and Ryan Smith had nothing to do with this and the City or County came out and said "Hey, the convention center is probably too big and we feel like we could better connect downtown by reducing it's size and restoring 200 W. (Something we have had discussions about on this forum in the past) I absolutely would have supported that and, I may be wrong, but I think most of us on this forum would have. But since there is a billionaire asking for it, everyone feels weird about it.

I think there are reasons to be careful here, but I haven't seen anything, so far, that isn't in our interest other then the tax increase and possible removal of Abravanel Hall, which I don't think will happen in the end.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by i-215

Poke at me. Fine.

When I lived in Provo for 14 years, I actually preferred walking around the city before the NuSkin and temple developments. It felt like an actual downtown. But the city gave away a street. And then another street. And now, while the economic activity is a big improvement, the downtown has forever lost its "downtown" nature. There is a gigantic L-shaped block now that's lost 24/7 public access. That part of town may as well be a suburb. And it's stuck that way forever.

Yes, restoring 100 South through the convention center block is great. But don't you dare try to tell me that the convention center (public) and City Creek (private) are comparable, simply because they both have time-manner-place restrictions.

WE set those restrictions for the convention center. WE elect representatives to the Salt Lake County Council (not me specifically, as I currently do not live in SLCo, obviously).

A private developer? It's forever an asset to buy and sell amongst billionaires and hedge funds. And the only way WE can ever get it back is to give them an extravagant about of money to buy it back someday. We are stewards of our public assets, to protect and pass on to future generations of city residents. And they're going to be so pissed off at us for giving everything away for a couple of restaurants and a hotel.

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo continue to own the blocks and LEASE it SEG (at a profit) in exchange for use of the land (market rate)?

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo get part ownership in the Delta Center in exchange for the tax revenue subsidy (proportional percentage)?

I just feel like SLC is giving away its long-term future (50+ years) for medium-term goals (20+ years). And the rushed nature of this is VERY troublesome. Even the LDS church (who owned and financed their own project) took years to build up to City Creek. This is happening over a matter of weeks.

It really makes me feel like I'm in an episode of The Twilight Zone to see so few of you concerned about this. Like... if you all suddenly said, "Let's demolish the 600S and 500S corridors and rebuild the elevated viaducts only BIGGER" -- and I was the one shouting that we need to slow down. That's how this feels.

I feel the same thing you're feeling. It's crazy to me that you're so concerned about a dead zone block that we don't have any access to anyway as residents of Salt Lake.

Imagine wanting to preserve this:



Can you please tell me what I, a citizen of Salt Lake, gets from that?

And remember, we're not talking about getting rid of the Salt Palace. That isn't the debate.

So, how can anyone reasonably believe the 200 West area of the Salt Palace is somehow better than opening up the block and creating an entertainment space that will be utilized far more by local citizens than the block currently is right now?

[airhero]

Salt Lake City has released the Main Street Pedestrian Promenade Study, which aims to reconfigure Main Street between South Temple and 400 S and the portion of 100 South between Main and West Temple. The tentative plan is to close these street sections off permanently to general auto traffic and prioritize pedestrian access:

https://www.slc.gov/ed/main-street-promenade-study/

[msbutah]

I wish they would just do it (close Main Street) already. Seems like they've been 'studying' this for years on end now.

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by i-215

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo continue to own the blocks and LEASE it SEG (at a profit) in exchange for use of the land (market rate)?

Compromise: Why can't SLC/SLCo get part ownership in the Delta Center in exchange for the tax revenue subsidy (proportional percentage)?

1. I kinda doubt SLCo will relinquish ownership of the blocks, from what I can guess, they're just letting Smith redevelop them for his entertainment district.

2. I could be wrong here, but doesn't the city own the land under the Delta Center already? I agree that we should retain partial ownership of the building itself, but it's not like Smith is gonna be evil dictator of those 4-6 blocks in perpetuity. I do wish the public had direct contact and negotiations with Smith, but both the City AND County are actively negotiating and working with Smith to develop the best plan possible.

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by msbutah

I wish they would just do it (close Main Street) already. Seems like they've been 'studying' this for years on end now.

Couldn't agree more, from what I've heard, some business owners think closing main street totally would be bad for business (it won't). So the downtown alliance has been trying to delay and change the plan. I think the church has been getting involved as well, probably because of City Creek but I'm not sure.

[stayinginformed]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

1. I kinda doubt SLCo will relinquish ownership of the blocks, from what I can guess, they're just letting Smith redevelop them for his entertainment district.

2. I could be wrong here, but doesn't the city own the land under the Delta Center already? I agree that we should retain partial ownership of the building itself, but it's not like Smith is gonna be evil dictator of those 4-6 blocks in perpetuity. I do wish the public had direct contact and negotiations with Smith, but both the City AND County are actively negotiating and working with Smith to develop the best plan possible.

The current plan is a 99 year lease of the land from Salt Lake County where the convention center is now.

Yes, Salt Lake City corp owns the land under the Delta Center as well--namely the RDA owns the land according to the Salt Lake County assessor map.

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

1. I kinda doubt SLCo will relinquish ownership of the blocks, from what I can guess, they're just letting Smith redevelop them for his entertainment district.

2. I could be wrong here, but doesn't the city own the land under the Delta Center already? I agree that we should retain partial ownership of the building itself, but it's not like Smith is gonna be evil dictator of those 4-6 blocks in perpetuity. I do wish the public had direct contact and negotiations with Smith, but both the City AND County are actively negotiating and working with Smith to develop the best plan possible.

I was just in the middle of posting a similar reply. SEG is seeking a LEASE for those two eastern blocks (the Raddison/Abbravanal Hall). They will not seek to own them in any circumstance. People are also confused on the Delta center lot. It's RDA land and there was a 50 year lease to LHM for $1/yr. Larry also got public financing there. SEG is seeking a 99 year extension on the same terms.

If anyone wants to see a VERY doable rendition of what SEG could do here is the downtown Edmonton Ice District. Just google street view it. It's easy to see the before and after.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by stayinginformed

The current plan is a 99 year lease of the land from Salt Lake County where the convention center is now.

Yes, Salt Lake City corp owns the land under the Delta Center as well--namely the RDA owns the land according to the Salt Lake County assessor map.

Okay, then I'm feeling more at ease.

I'm getting PTSD from the Orem situation where they basically gave away their golf course to their wealthiest resident. If we are using public money, I want there to be direct public benefit (lease payments, etc.) No corporate handouts.

So if the county is LEASING the land to SEG and SEG pays rent to be there, then I suppose that assuages a lot of my concern. I was under the impression that SLCo was basically giving the blocks away because of some B.S. "we'll sell you the blocks for $1 so it'll increase jobs and sales tax revenue" nonsense. But if SEG is effectively a long-term tenant on SLCo's land, I'm good with that.

This is the problem with the eerie quickness to this process. A lot of public misconceptions (me as a case example).

(And NO Comrade, I'm not trying to save the freaking convention center in its current form. That undercrossing is terrifying to ride on a Lime scooter. I just want to make sure that if Ryan Smith wants to tear it down, HE is paying to build us a new one, preferably on site. The paint is still drying on the convention center hotel for Pete's sake!)

Demolition of Abravanel Hall is a non starter. I'd drive home to Utah just to picket that. And I don't picket anything. He can demolish/rebuild the lobby area if needed, but the hall itself is off limits.

[Comrade]

I get it now. You're just freaking out over things that may not even happen.

And all from your home not in Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County or even Utah lmao

I get being concerned but holy shit, my dude. You taking a defiant tone, and being so adamant about things when none of this is even remotely finalized or even likely to be finalized in a way that a) eliminates the Salt Palace completely b) and the complete demolition of Abravanel Hall is just wasted energy.

There's being reluctant and waiting for more information before coming out in favor/against this deal and then there's whatever the hell you're doing here lmao

[mstar]

I will just jump in and say that this Sports/Entertainment proposal will be good for Salt Lake City. Salt Lake or Utah for that matter does not have one Fortune 500 company. We don't have the luxury of what Austin Texas has or the deep pockets that are in Nashville. Salt Lake City needs to invest in downtown to make something like this happen. I think Ryan Smith is also trying to be a needed and great partner in this Endeavor with the city. He's already stepped up and dropped a billion dollars to get the Hockey Team here. With the Church supporting this as well - this is a opportunity for Salt Lake to make a big splash and make a positive change in an area that really needs change. This does not guarantee that we will get a Fortune 500 company to move here - but I think it certainly will not hurt. Salt Lake is doing well but I think needs this boost to get us to next level. Hey - we're all development nerds here - we should all be excited!

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by mstar

I will just jump in and say that this Sports/Entertainment proposal will be good for Salt Lake City. Salt Lake or Utah for that matter does not have one Fortune 500 company. We don't have the luxury of what Austin Texas has or the deep pockets that are in Nashville. Salt Lake City needs to invest in downtown to make something like this happen. I think Ryan Smith is also trying to be a needed and great partner in this Endeavor with the city. He's already stepped up and dropped a billion dollars to get the Hockey Team here. With the Church supporting this as well - this is a opportunity for Salt Lake to make a big splash and make a positive change in an area that really needs change. This does not guarantee that we will get a Fortune 500 company to move here - but I think it certainly will not hurt. Salt Lake is doing well but I think needs this boost to get us to next level. Hey - we're all development nerds here - we should all be excited!

Agreed. Outside the LDS Church, there's barely been large investment in downtown. It's nice that we have actual people committed to things.

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Agreed. Outside the LDS Church, there's barely been large investment in downtown. It's nice that we have actual people committed to things.

That CityCast pod referenced before really did have some decent information. One somewhat sardonic question posed to the councilwoman was why a "billionaire" group was even needed to do these renovations and improve the district if these were changes the city always wanted to make anyway. The councilperson responded that the city council are great planners but TERRIBLE developers. Never was there a truer sentence spoken -- just look at Station Center and the Fleet Block.

We should trust the expertise of some people involved. For example, if Mayor Wilson says the convention center is overbuilt in overall space but lacking in ballrooms, maybe we should listen.

I think this is what that area needs and quite frankly these are things we've all talked about forever. I was in town last weekend for Kilby Block Party. I stayed right off the green line, didn't rent a car and used trax the entire time, and ate at many places downtown. I LOVE SLC but it can be so much better connected, safer, and more vibrant. The SEG proposal may not be everything we need but it could help so much.