[Komeht]

Originally Posted by M1EK

I appreciate the friendly words. Please remember when reading this that this is not something I've just come to with no knowledge - I'm intimately familiar with Mueller from the getgo, and have formed these opinions not out of ignorance, but out of an excess of experience.



Actually, Mueller apologists claim the suburban retail will be retrofitted within a decade or two. Not can be; not might be; not conceivably could be; but will be.



First, this makes it sound like urban grocery (or even a true hybrid) is a hard problem to solve. It's not - like most problems with Mueller, it's a lack of observation of successful neighborhoods nearby - like Hyde Park.

Look at Fresh Plus on 43rd. It's got a parking lot on one side, and it's got street frontage (pedestrian friendly front entrance). You don't have to go more than ten minutes from Mueller to have an example of what Mueller's planners should have demanded (and if HEB wouldn't give it to them, then wait; there's nothing Mueller gets from having a drive-only HEB slightly closer that's worth forever losing this opportunity).

t's absolutely not true that it's a quick walk down tree-lined streets there. You will, in fact, have to cross part of a parking lot to get there (in the best case scenario - coming from the side on Berkman), and you will, in fact, be the afterthought - not the primary or even equal thought, but the "oh. I guess maybe somebody might walk once in a while too, so maybe we'll paint a crosswalk or two". I doubt very much whether crossing the traffic lane to/from the loading dock is what most people have in mind as 'urban'.

Urban would be cars park over here, then they walk around the building to the main entrance the pedestrians are already at (or, like at Fresh Plus, again, right there for the looking-at, drivers have their own side-entrance but it's clearly the lesser of the two).

Two links from my fellow traveller the Austin Contrarian:

http://www.austincontrarian.com/aust...an-design.html
http://www.austincontrarian.com/aust...ealistic-.html

And no, the HEB is not incrementally better. It's going to stay suburban forever, and no, it's not true that it doesn't impact a Royal Blue solution in the Town Center (which is a suboptimal grocer anyways - people around here can and do use Fresh Plus for 100% of their daily needs; Royal Blue isn't there unless you are making a conscious point to eschew your car and put up with a small selection). I

If the HEB means the Town Center can't have something the scale of a Fresh Plus and instead gets a Royal Blue (and I doubt it will even get that), then the HEB screwed Mueller up for good.



If Mueller was a serious NU development, the following things would have happened:

1. Apartments would be mixed in with the houses, instead of being horizontally separated.

2. The Town Center (plus apartments) would have been first, rather than last.

Again, a nearby example exists! The freakin' Triangle! Built in far less time, with a real Town Center in it (even if it's got too many chains and was way too restaurant-heavy, it's been delivering the Town Center Mueller was promised for almost ten years now!)

Mueller's Town Center plans have shifted over the years to be far less ambitious than originally promised, and delayed by what will likely turn out to be a decade (if it ever actually happens). I sat on the UTC from 2000-2005 and was being briefed (and contributing slightly to) plans from 2000 on.

What Mueller ended up being is a medium-density suburb. People have to drive on nearly every errand (it is relatively bike-friendly, but so are many suburbs). This is unlikely to (ever) change, but it was easily avoidable.

As for the "just wait five years", that's what people were told five years ago!

Finally, if you're interested, here's a thread from about 18 months ago on the same subject:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=193564

Hey Mike,

For the record I think you were right on the money about the Red Line and the fact that you were saying this before anyone else means your ideas carry a lot of weight with me. One of the things I like about you is you put thought into your views on the city and I also appreciate your sharing an insiders POV. I think we share a pretty similar perspective on most things and I'm pretty sure we'd agree about city issues on a LOT more than we would disagree. The following are points we agree on wrt Mueller:

1. Whether a retrofit of the nw retail quadrant will happen in the future is too remote a possibility and too remote in time to be worth considering. If there are apologist for it use that as an excuse, then I agree with you. I haven't seen any public statement of that kind, but then I'm not privy to the access and discussions you've had.

2. Mueller is medium density with too much segregation in housing. e.g., one thing that Mueller has done well are the Mueller Houses. Why they didn't mix those through the neighborhood instead of stacking them all on Simond is a bit perplexing to me - they would have fit well into the neighborhood and provided a nice mix of housing within blocks instead of within the development as a whole and a great example for the rest of Austin as to how mixing housing types in neighborhoods can add density and not be scary. Boat missed on that one.

3. The HEB is essentially suburban in form, set behind a giant parking lot, and not oriented to the street as you and I would have preferred. The nods towards urbanism, while nice, are not sufficient. I also agree that the presence of HEB absolutely precludes something on the scale of Fresh Plus (as a Fresh Plus would absolutely preclude the presence of an HEB). I think a RB is not precluded (either contracturally or effectively) because it does serve a different function and market. Is there room for both? Not sure. Maybe not for a few years.

4. Yes today people have to drive to nearly every errand. I think they're short drives for the most part and also that's likely to change some by this summer. In 5 years it may well be the case that many or most errands for residents will be accomplished on foot or bike. I noticed there were petit cabs hanging around the farmers market last few weekends taking people and groceries from the hangar to homes, in Mueller and other nearby neighborhoods.

The above being said - I do think you are harder on Mueller than it deserves.

1. Starting from just about any point w/n Mueller and walking to the HEB you would ultimately end up on Berkman headed north. The design of Berkman itself is actually quite good and conducive to pleasant walk (building, small yard, sidewalk, tree, bike lane, raised concrete barrier, on-street parking, traffic - that will be a very pleasant and well designed blvd once complete). Then you will have to walk one block with retail on one or two sides and cross a very short amount of pavement (maybe 15 seconds) to get to the front. I agree this is not ideal and yes it's from the side and not the front - but it's not horrible either. And the side entrance from Berkman looks like it has potential to be pretty welcoming with that wing structure out front. If your walk to the grocery store is 5-10 minutes, the last 15 seconds are bad - that's not a deal killer. The worst part is that it is mostly oriented to the parking lot and the parking is all surface, again we agree. It also would have been great if they had put an apartment building above it making it vmu - not sure if that was ever considered - boat missed.

I will say that the pedestrian approach from Windsor Park is much more problematic than that for for residence of Mueller, and much less friendly.
2. I agree the problem of orienting the HEB to the street is not a terribly tough one to solve. Personally I would prefer structured parking like Whole Foods at 6th to the surface parking on the side or back that you mention at Fresh Plus. But unfortunately you need a willing participant to do that. HEB wasn't willing to do so - they haven't developed a business model based on an urban form yet and aren't willing to take that risk. BTW, this isn't the first time they've refused to go urban. In Houston's Montrose neighborhood the neighbors begged and pleaded and city tried and tried to get HEB to do the same and they balked there as well with similar results. I agree it can be done, I agree that Mueller would have been a good place to start - but I can't fault Catellus for ultimately deciding to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Perhaps they should have courted Trader Joes more.

3. Whether the town center gets built first or dead last doesn't matter in the long view. What matters is it gets built and is designed well so that it is a commercial and long term sustainable success and good urban design. I suspect it will ultimately not be first or last but something in between - and that's ok - as long as it's good. That's what I think the residents are holding their breath on and what remains to be seen. I have seen the plans and presentation and what I have seen looks promising.

4. 5 years ago the world was on the cusp of a financial melt down which stopped many projects cold and killed many others. Mueller's continued development (albeit at a slower pace than most people would like) is a testament to careful planning. It's hard to fault Catellus for tapping the breaks in the wake of financial institutions folding world wide, unavailable credit, and the widespread death of large commercial real estate ventures all over the US. If 5 years goes by from now and town center is still largely orange and red blocks on a piece of paper with no significant progress, then I will gladly (but with sadness, because I do hope the town center does happen) buy you a margarita at Julios and say "Mike, yet again, you were right - we should have listened."

5. It was my impression that the town center plans are actually more ambitious, with higher levels of density, taller buildings, more opportunities for retail, etc. than there were previously. Is that not the case?

6. I don't think it's fair to call Mueller a suburb since, it's centrally located (2 miles from UT, 3 miles from the CBD), and well within city limits and basically urban in form. That is is medium density is without question - is a step up from the low density that is currently allowed w/n 80 or 90% of Austin and a vast improvement over concrete runways.

7. Finally, Mueller isn't the only force in the area. Revitalization is creeping down Manor lot by lot. Its easy to see that in 10 years all of Manor between Airport and IH35 could be quite a strip of VMU. Can that jump across Airport and link right up to Mueller? Idk, but Contigo makes a good case that it can and will eventually.