[Orlando]

Originally Posted by tchild2

You figured? I have a family and grew up in Utah County, where the hell else ought I to live?

Sorry. That might have been a little too finger pointing, but I guessed based on your attitude in your original response, which came across as very conciliatory of the current sprawl mindset. It was like, "it's just how it is.. excuse, excuse, excuse". I mean it's quite typical and quite apathetical of many residents along the Wasatch Front. My sister lives in Tooele and commutes to work in Murray. I would tell her that is really stupid and irresponsible, but then that wouldn't go too well with her, I'm sure. My brother lives about 45 minutes or more from downtown Saint Louis on the furthest outskirts of the metro area. I love both of them, but them and their spouses are the same mindset that you you somewhat seem to be in along with many others along the Wasatch Front. It's irresponsible land-use development that's allowed in the U.S. because people complain that it infringes on their personal freedoms if the government has more say or control over land-use and urban planning. Thus the U.S. is super irresponsible in their development patterns, consumerism, energy consumption, and pollution habits.

Originally Posted by tchild2

Actually, I lived in Orem and now Lindon while most of Lehi was just farmland. My payroll company chose Lehi because it offered a central location between Utah and SL counties for our clients. Downtown, no matter how ideal a notion to pack all business into a central downtown core, would not have been a good fit for our workers or clients.

This is part of the problem in itself. Many employers have followed the Thanksgiving Point development lead and developed there instead of in existing metro centers or nodes, like downtown Provo, downtown SLC, or even downtown West Valley City, or downtown Sandy. This has exacerbated sprawl bigtime. I think Lehi still offers a valuable node, but it has become more important than the existing downtowns, and the planning is horrendous. The south end of the Salt Lake Valley and northern Utah Valley has been all stand-alone office or apartment developments, with a sea of parking around them. It has pulled away vital energy and vitality from the existing urban cores and it is completely car-centric, environmentally irresponsible, and so ignorant of good urban planning. Northern Utah people come across not as being smart and future thinkers, but backwards conservatives, when it comes to urban planning and responsible and smart development. Also, why do you think the Utah tech scene is having a problem attracting much needed new talent? Many of those relocating from out-of-state would prefer to be in Salt Lake City where there is more of an urban vibe, connectivity, eateries, & bars.

Originally Posted by tchild2

Well, 95% of US cities resemble the growth and sprawl of SLC than they do Seattle and Portland. Then again, we don't have anarchists taking over our cities either. Btw, my father lived in Seattle for twenty years. City is fantastic if you can afford to live in the "walkable" older areas. Otherwise, the traffic in Seattle, cars, and congestion is much worse than SLC.

That's like saying "Well, if the rest of the US is developing poorly and sprawlish like, then it's okay, right?" We can do much better. SLC and northern Utah is doing much better than other metros their size with transportation, but unfortunately most of the mid-sized to smaller metros are doing poorly in this regard, except for a few like Portland. Btw, the congestion is bad if you live way out there and drive to work in Seattle. That's why they have discouraged freeway expansions, but have expanded their commuter rail and light rail. I take the bus, and it is very efficient. I live about 25 minutes out from downtown, but I take the bus and I don't have to deal with parking, gas, traffic, etc. I get it about the affordability issue, but that's also because of the high-salary tech companies in the Seattle area and also by foreign real-estate investors.

Originally Posted by tchild2

Can't go back Orlando, we can only go forward. The best we can do now is try make the sprawltopia of Utah denser and more urban...which is what I think planners are trying to do. Light rail has gone in, higher density housing is going in around the light rail nodes. It will take time. I have never, not even remotely liked or agreed with the car-centric and sprawl planning, but here it is and what can we do?

I appreciate what you are saying, but there needs to be big attitude change along the Wasatch Front, in general. There needs to be more reinforcement of prioritizing our existing urban cores over sprawl development, which is what the vast majority of office development is being developed like. Their needs to be better education to the citizens and the government officials, and especially the real-estate & development people along the Wasatch Front. We saw that article about 6 months ago or so, where a new developer or company would come in to town, because they hear Salt Lake's market is hot. They want to go downtown, but they see the blight, and parking lots, and the local real-estate developers are apathetic, and they tell them to go down south and get a lease in a stand-alone office building. Awful. There needs to be a greater vision and understanding sold to those real-estate agents and developers. There's a lack of confidence or vision of what a vibrant urban core could be in SLC. The demand is there for the tech companies to locate in downtown or other existing urban nodes and be more connected pedestrian wise and otherwise. Many tech workers live in SLC but commute to Lehi. New apartments popping up in SLC are leased out before construction has even started.

Utah and their officials need to create an urban growth boundary or constraints to thwart irreponsible land development. The worst example of what is happening is Eagle Mountain. That is the biggest example of "leap-frog development". Perhaps a gas tax would work to pay for all the infrastructure needed but then the ignorant people would complain. Someone one here said that people are educated about sprawl, etc., but really? Then why are they doing it and why are the government leaders and developers, etc. going full throttle on it? If they truly were educated about it, they would change their habits.