Video of BrightLine & Metrorail trains departing their stations
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station construction on center right side
you can also see metro mover stations https://instagram.fmia1-1.fna.fbcdn....11149824_n.jpg |
Brightline high-speed passenger train gets Orange County OK to lay tracks in wetlands
June 19, 2018
After winning approval Tuesday from Orange County commissioners, the company planning a high-speed passenger train linking Orlando with Miami expects to start laying rail in Central Florida later this year, a project executive said. The 235-mile rail service includes a 22-mile stretch through Orange County that runs parallel to State Road 528 beginning at the St. Johns River and running to Orlando International Airport, mostly through protected wetlands. The plan to ease the direct impact on 106 acres of wetlands required a permit approved by commissioners. Michael Cegelis, executive vice president of rail infrastructure at Brightline Trains, said the proposed rail route from the airport terminal isn’t the shortest or most direct through the county to the east coast but it is “the path of least disruption.” The company could have gone south from the airport, which would have been a shorter route to the coast. “But that would have been all virgin territory,” Cegelis said. The company chose to run through wetlands along the toll-road bed, which accommodates cars and trucks. “To make public transportation work, there are times when you have [to accept] impacts,” Orange county Mayor Teresa Jacobs said, crediting the effort to minimize effects on wetlands. “They could have carved a whole new path and created a great deal more impact.” Commissioner Emily Bonilla, who was elected on a conservation platform, concurred. “Of all the options, this is the best,” she said. There are no scheduled stops on the segment between Orlando and West Palm. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...619-story.html |
Brightline makes official bid for Orlando-to-Tampa extension along I-4 corridor
https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/lo...mpa/726921002/ Quote:
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Yeah, I don't see of anything being cooled on the Jax segment. The track already exists and they own it. This process of extending to Tampa requires more time and steps like this, that aren't required when existing infrastructure is in place. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see them both operational around the same time.
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I would like to see Savannah pushed in addition to Jacksonville.
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^ The FEC ends in Jacksonville, how do you suggest they continue further north?
Savannah's a tiny city with less than 400k metro population, doesn't even crack the top 100 cities in the US. Not worth the multi-billion expense of building a rail corridor up I-95, or double-tracking CSX's line. It is a tourist destination but only a fraction of Orlando or Tampa/St Pete. |
Creating an east coast high speed corridor from Boston to Miami should have been a national priority years ago.
Boston-Providence-New Haven-NYC-Phila-Baltimore-Washington-Richmond(w/hsr Norfolk link)-Raleigh/Durham(w/hsr Charlotte & Atlanta link)-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville-Miami You can't tell me this wouldn't be a success with 200 mph trains. |
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The NEC is a HSR corridor, maybe not state of the art anymore but nothing in this world remains state of the art long. My point is that at one time it was - and a governmental agency didn't build it. Take the distance Boston to Providence (43 miles), Providence to New Haven (113 miles), NYC to New Haven (72 miles) DC to Baltimore (40 miles), Baltimore to Wilmington (69 miles), Wilmington to Philadelphia (25 miles), Philadelphia to NYC (91 miles) then compare that to the distances Jacksonville to Savanah (107 miles), Savanah to Charleston (101 miles) Charleston to Florence (95 miles), Florence to Raleigh (102 miles) Richmond to Raleigh (195 miles) and DC to Richmond (109 miles). Can you you see that the differences are more than twice as far? Which means the density is half as much. The entire NEC from Boston to DC is 457 miles in length with 26 stations, averaging a station every 17.5 miles. DC to Miami is 1164 miles in length with 46 existing stations (along the route via Charleston and skipping Tampa) averaging a station every 25 miles. Just about every station on the NEC involves a large city, not every one south of DC does, many are at small cities or large towns. Add the 457 miles of the NEC to the 1184 miles south of DC you'll have 1641 miles. No where in the world do they run HSR trains that far without requiring passengers to transfer trains. CHSR is going to take decades, if not scores, to implement a state of the art HSR train service, can you imagine how much longer it will take to do so over twice as many miles and over 13 different states? Please don't confuse money thrown at highways with money to be thrown at railways. The Interstate Highway system has a dedicated tax program to fund it, there is no dedicated tax program to fund railways. The Interstate Highway system was built to support the military move supplies from coast to coast as a secondary purpose. Name one army or navy in the world with trains in their inventory? Name one army or navy in the world without trucks? Let that sink in just a little bit! Eisenhower wasn't an artillery, calvary, or infantry field commander, almost his entire military experience was in the supply corps, which moved most of the supplies on the ground in trucks. So of course he wanted modern highways implemented nationally to match what he saw as state of the art in Europe. Just to put some perspective, using just the US Army alone, and using Wiki as the source of data: Battle Tanks 5.848 in service, another 3,000 stored Infantry Fighting Vehicles 6,724 Armored Personnel Carriers 12,709 Armored Combat Support Vehicles 653 Mine Protected Vehicles 25,939 Light Armored Vehicles 260,000 Self Propelled Artillery 2,341 Anti Aircraft 1,024 Trucks 132,500 Plus Light Utility Vehicles, Miscellaneous, and Experemental Vehicles not numbered by Wiki. Number of trains -0- |
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Norfolk vs. Richmond is probably a toss up, Norfolk has a little bit more metro population but poses engineering challenges and doesn't have a large historic walkable core. That being said, even with 220mph trains and extensive new construction, the average speed will still be closer to 120mph in a best case scenario, so you'd still have a 15 hour trip Boston to Miami, or a 12 hour trip going DC to Miami. I think we're better off focusing on regional HSR connections than trying to build cross-country main lines, even on the East Coast there's still a lot of lightly populated areas. |
That would be another mainline. NYC to New Orleans. Atlanta and Charlotte would be on that one.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.1561...ovwve7Bw?hl=en |
^Correct. Some trains from the north would head to Charlotte and Atlanta, others down the coast to Savannah, Jacksonville and Miami. Not difficult to imagine.
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Interesting information from a Wiki article..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail "According to Peter Jorritsma, the rail market share s, as compared to planes, can be computed approximately as a function of the travelling time in minutes t by the formula s={1 \over 0.031\times 1.016^{t}+1} According to this formula, a journey time of three hours yields 65% market share. However, market shares are also influenced by ticket prices. In another study conducted about Japan's High-speed rail service, they found a "4-hour wall" in High-speed rail's market share, which if the high speed rail journey time exceeded 4 hours, then people would likely choose planes over high-speed rail. For instance, from Tokyo to Osaka where high-speed rail take 2h22m, high-speed rail have 85% market share whereas planes have 15%. From Tokyo to Hiroshima which high-speed rail take 3h44m, high-speed rail have 67% market share whereas planes have 33%. The situation is the reverse on the Tokyo to Fukuoka route where high-speed rail takes 4h47m and rail only has 10% market share and planes 90%." The "4 hour wall" shouldn't be ignored. There's no way HSR train running over 4 hours will come close to breaking even. An east coast over 1,000 mile long HSR line will never ever be less than 4 hours. Additionally, a 4 hour train in one direction should allow the same driver and crew man the return trip of 4 hours. There's a reason why Amtrak frequently switches train crews in New York City for its' NEC trains. |
I think everyone is greatly underestimating the potential for leisure travelers here. A true high speed railway following the I-95 corridor could carry a huge number of daytrippers, weekenders and vacationers from points north that would otherwise not make the trip at all if the choices are driving or dealing with flying. If people could get from Washington to the SC lowcountry or Savannah beaches in about 2 hours for a weekend, that would be a huge economic impact.
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And that's the shorter distance of DC to Savanah, not NYC to Orlando nor the even longer Boston to Miami. I repeat, that 4 hour "wall" is real! The problem with relying upon leisure travelers to make a HSR train profitable, or even close to being profitable, is that leisure travelers don't travel on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays in huge numbers. They travel on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, and Mondays. |
You get ridership on a long HSR route from paired major cities all along the route. If two or more major cities are within the 4 hour wall, that is where the bulk of the ridership will come from. So a 1000 route will succeed if there are pairs of cities all along the route that meet that 4 hour criteria.
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Looking at CSA statistics: Boston 8,099,575 New York City 23,689,255 Philadelphia - Camden 6,096,120 Baltimore - DC 9,764,315 Richmond 1,263,617 Raleigh- Durham 2,037,430 Charleston 744,526 Savannah 544,092 Jacksonville 1,631,488 Orlando 3,129,308 Miami 6,723,472 There's a huge gap in city pairs population required to support a HSR line between DC and Orlando - and I believe including Orlando might be a mistake. Never-the-less, HSR trains will only be worthwhile if they are nearly full. I do not see DC to Orlando city pairs supporting HSR trains every hour much less every half hour like Acela on the NEC. It's 899 rail miles between DC and Orlando, a train averaging 125 mph will require more than 7 hours to travel - remember that 4 hour "wall" discovered in Japan - where many more passengers will chose to ride a train..... It's not like there aren't cities along the way, or that the cities that do exist are twice as far apart as they are on the NEC, it's that these cities south of DC and north of Florida are too small for frequent train services HSR requires. |
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What matters in the SE is what city pairs to Atlanta could be supported. |
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Atlanta 6,162,195 Charolette 2,632,249 It’s 258 rail miles between them, a HSR train averaging 125 mph will take around two hours. How many trains Charolette could support today would be my major difficulty, would it be enough trains to make a dedicated HSR line worthwhile? Could North and South Carolinia statehouses join Georgia to subsidize this HSR line? |
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The Crescent Corridor to New Orleans should not be built out at 220mph. What a waste that would be. The cities along the route are not major business or tourism destinations, with the exception of New Orleans... but even then I'm not sure if the demand is there, building a new 220mph mainline into that city would cost multiple billions on its own. It would be better to just double-track the existing freight corridors and do 150mph service as Illinois is installing on the Chi-StL corridor right now. That would only be a few billion per corridor which is reasonable enough to sell as a national network. With a proper PTC installation those upgraded lines could use lightweight DMU trains for better performance. |
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Increased speeds are just waiting on testing of the PTC system. The deadline for that keeps slipping. Apparently tracking the location and speed of a few trains is harder than sending a man to the moon or putting a powerful computer in every pocket. :shrug: But somehow AAF completed their PTC system while following all FRA regulations, so it's not impossible. How hard can it be, you're literally just comparing GPS locations to a model stringline chart and then issuing directions to the train's control system to speed up or slow down. In theory it doesn't even need any physical infrastructure like trackside signals. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Union_Station
this is location of tampa brightline station near/next to new 800 million Rays stadium |
To Meet Demand, Brightline Is Adding More Service
By TNM Staff on July 12, 2018
Demand for Brightline tickets has been growing since service started, and the company is responding with a big increase in service. In early August, the number of roundtrip trains from Miami to West Palm Beach will increase nearly 50 percent. There are currently 11 daily roundtrips, which will increase to 16. A spokesperson told the SFBJ that demand has been “phenomenal.” With the increase, there will be a train leaving in each direction nearly every hour, from early morning to late night. The first train departs West Palm Beach at 5:30am, and the last train leaves Miami at 11:10pm. Prices have already increased, and a roundtrip between Miami and West Palm Beach in first class can now cost as much as $70. A one way ticket from Miami to West Palm Beach in the premium Select class ranges from $30 to $35 depending on the time. A basic one-way ticket in Smart class starts at $20 on weekdays. Tickets for the new August timings are already on sale. https://www.thenextmiami.com/to-meet...t-more-trains/ |
Commuters embrace Brightline (Video)
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Atlanta 6,162,195 Charolette 2,632,249 Subtotal 8,794,444 Number of cities along the route that Amtrak stops at presently is 6 Gastonia, NC 75,536 Spartanburg, SC 37,876 Greenville, SC 67,453 Clemson, SC 16,058 Toccoa, GA 8,412 Gainesville, GA 40,000 Subtotal 245,335 London 13,709,000 Newcastle 1,599,000 Subtotal 15,308,000 Number of cities along the route large enough to warrant a train station as reported by you is 7. Per Wiki, 15,308,000 "The main line between London King's Cross and Edinburgh Waverley stations, via (1)Stevenage, (2)Peterborough, (3)Grantham, (4)Newark North Gate, (5)Retford, (6)Doncaster, (7)York, (8)Northallerton, (9)Darlington, (10)Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed and Dunbar." There's 10 stations between London and Newcastle, I haven't the slightest idea which 7 the train stations your trains stop at, so let's subtotal all 10. Stevenage 87,100. Peterborough 183,631 Grantham 44,580 Newark North Gate 27,700 Retford 22,013 Doncaster 158,141 York 208,079 Northallerton 16,832 Darlington 105,564 Durham 65,549 Subtotal 749,189 If you can't see the difference between 8,794,444 and 15,308,000; and the differences between 245,335 and 749,189; you need to learn to count. In both the terminating cities, and the intermediate cities, your train in England runs through cities and towns with two to three times more population. You have to look at all the different aspects of a rail line from all points of views when comparing the viability of different rail lines to one another. |
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I also said it would not be hard for Atlanta Charlotte to support half the level of service that Newcastle does. It also matter how many cars are in each train, In the UK it has been that intercity travel is served by relatively short trains compared to some on the European mainline, the difference being that trains between british cities are much more frequent. An hourly 6 car train could easily be filled, as long as it was not hobbled by those useless US passenger train practices ( I mean, a conductor every two cars?) it could prove quite profitable. |
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne Specifically: Population (mid-2017 est.)[2] • City 295,800 (ranked 40th district) • Urban (Tyneside) 879,996 (ranked 7th) • Metro (Tyneside–Wearside) 1,650,000 (ranked 6th) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne I almost always use Metro or CSA statistics because it includes the population of all the city’s suburbs. Charolette metro per Wiki: Population (2016 Census estimate) • Urban 1,249,442 • Metro 2,474,314 • CSA 2,632,249 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char...ropolitan_area • City Population (2010 Census) • City 731,424 • Urban 1,249,442 • Metro 2,474,314 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char...North_Carolina It would be very, very unfair to compare city statistics to metro statistics. I’m trying to compare apples to apples, not apples with oranges. If you prefer the city statistics over metro statistics, let’s lower all the city statistics. Charolette is now 731,424 Atlanta is now 420,003 London is now 8,787,892 Newcastle is now 295,800 Therefore, the relative city pairs population is now London + Newcastle = 9,083 ,692 Atlanta + Charolette = 1,151,427 So what was a two to three times population advantage for the UK train is now an eight to nine times population advantage. I still think my earlier comparison using metro statistics was more fair. For those unfamiliar with America’s CSA statistic: CSAs represent multiple metropolitan or micropolitan areas that have an employment interchange of at least 15%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb...atistical_area If at least 15% of workers living in a suburban city commute to work in the central city, or vice versa, it’s included in the central city’s CSA. |
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But of course that would require a major change in politics in America, more than anything else. The USA is a big place but the only place that would struggle to support many services are West of the Mississippi. Texas and California excepted. Apart from some of the denser spots I don't see the point in putting on services that span more than a state or two. |
You could potentially justify extending the NEC to Atlanta via Richmond -> Raleigh -> Charlotte but not all the way to Florida. There's simply too much nothingness along I-95
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Does high speed rail not work in China? The longest high speed line in the world there is longer than the distance from NYC to Miami.
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Hi all,
Brightline has potential for Tampa International Airport station. https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay...-talks-on.html |
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Was it impossible for you to include a short synopsis what was in it? Tampa’s airport is on the opposite side of Tampa’s downtown than Orlando. Do you really believe Brightline will want to extend their trains beyond downtown Tampa? |
Delete - link failed
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So yes, it can work, but in the U.S. context. Even something like Brightline won't exist in 5 years. It will either be govt. rail (something like Amtrak) or gone. |
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However, unlike in Orlando, Tampa does not present an either/or for station locations. Iin Tampa the easiest right-of-way, I-4, passes along the edge of downtown, so they can add a downtown stop fairly easily, and it will sit adjacent to the city's bus hub. |
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